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Games To Ship In Dual Formats


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#61 m_hael

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Posted 18 February 2005 - 06:01 PM

QUOTE(TeonHarasymiv @ Feb 18 2005, 02:00 AM)
PC games also take more time to develop due to the extra testing they need and the extra work to make them work on any hardware.

Also while some areas of games (like teh graphics) might take more time to develop these days, others have become easyer, due to advances in development tools - alot of teh programming effort has been streamlined and optimised.

--------

Also I still dont see how making a HDTV game takes any more effort than a PC game, considering they already surpass HDTV resolutions (and have done for quite some time).

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1. yeah pc games get some testing done on a few systems... but as you MAY have noticed these days .. .many pc games say " we support BLAH BLAH BLAH" cards on the side.. thus absolving themselves of MUCH Of the problems... and they release patches should the game be REALLY bad... Console games.. do NOT do this.. cos.. its pretty hard to do.

2. What exactly is it you know about development? Because I live in a world where it doesn't really matter what advances are made to make certain things easier... consumers ALWAYS want more... and what part of programming a game has been streamlined? we have DirectX for Xbox that handles SOME of the requirements... on PS2 we have ZERO, NADA , NOTHING.. do it ALL yourself, on NGC we have a happy medium... each is different, each requires work; some more than others. Once the basics are in place each requires those "new additions" to be programmed for them... things DON'T get easier... you just think they do.

3. The reason a High Def game WILL take longer for MANY console developers is that THEY ARE CONSOLE DEVELOPERS... NOT PC DEVELOPERS... damn it could people THINK about what they are saying.. the games market is largely split.. PC vs CONSOLE... most do NOT do both.

#62 whet1134

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Posted 18 February 2005 - 06:25 PM

QUOTE(WARLIKE @ Feb 18 2005, 11:39 AM)
Where you inspired by me?: (Post #41) http://forums.xbox-s...9

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Uh, no. sorry. I write my own material...

#63 twistedsymphony

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Posted 19 February 2005 - 03:34 AM

QUOTE(m_hael @ Feb 18 2005, 12:07 PM)
1. yeah pc games get some testing done on a few systems... but as you MAY have noticed these days .. .many pc games say " we support BLAH BLAH BLAH" cards on the side.. thus absolving themselves of MUCH Of the problems... and they release patches should the game be REALLY bad... Console games.. do NOT do this.. cos.. its pretty hard to do.

2. What exactly is it you know about development? Because I live in a world where it doesn't really matter what advances are made to make certain things easier... consumers ALWAYS want more... and what part of programming a game has been streamlined? we have DirectX for Xbox that handles SOME of the requirements... on PS2 we have ZERO, NADA , NOTHING.. do it ALL yourself, on NGC we have a happy medium... each is different, each requires work; some more than others. Once the basics are in place each requires those "new additions" to be programmed for them... things DON'T get easier... you just think they do.

3. The reason a High Def game WILL take longer for MANY console developers is that THEY ARE CONSOLE DEVELOPERS... NOT PC DEVELOPERS... damn it could people THINK about what they are saying.. the games market is largely split.. PC vs CONSOLE... most do NOT do both.

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1. Consoles DON'T NEED PATCHES. The hardware is static, my Xbox is pretty much identical to the one used by some schmuck in Egypt. When was the last time any console release had a bug that caused it to crash or lock up? I certainly can't
remember. 90% of the time the only reason PCs ever need it is because of some software/hardware configuration that the developers didn't think to test for. If for some odd reason a game did need a patch the Xbox has a hard drive and the PS2 has memory cards and the software could be stored there just like they do any other software updates. As for distro they could use the same mediums they do now for extra content. Xbox Live, CDs in magazines, Free discs in stores that carry the game, or a simple "give us your address we'll send you a disc" video games have been around a lot longer (and needed patches) a lot longer then the internet has been popular.

Also listing the system requirements on the side of the box absolves them of one thing responsibility if someone who doesn't meet there requirements buys the game, not problems. Just because I say my game runs on swiss cheese doesn't mean that there will be no problems running it on that. Not to mention part of the reason Console gaming is more wide spread (and dips into a younger audience as well) is because you don't have to worry about shit like system requirements.

2. Yeah I guess you're TOTALLY RIGHT there haven't been ANY advancements in any software development or 3D modeling/rendering tools, most games are still programed with punch cards right?

3. Hi-Def is just a resolution. I have BLEEM! on my PC right now, you know what it does? It runs Playstation games in ohmy.gif A higher resolution! WOW I sure am glad all those Playstation developers spent all that extra time programing those Playstation games to run on a resolution higher than that of HD.

I don't know what games you play but I can think of many more games that are on both console and PC than games that aren't. No sane game company would stick to console only with a blockbuster title. In-fact the only blockbuster titles I can think of that AREN'T on both PC and Console are those that are either under contractual obligation to reside only on their original system or a fighting/arcade style game. Lets face it, fighting/arcade style games are useless on a PC, they do however release most fighting/arcade games in arcades, which these days are ohmy.gif PC based! Not to mention run a resolutions higher than HD.

Now can we please get back on topic of HD-DVD format discs, I find it much more entertaining than your opinions of software developers.

Edited by twistedsymphony, 19 February 2005 - 03:36 AM.


#64 throwingks

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Posted 19 February 2005 - 03:59 AM

I say no to hd-dvd and yes to wmvhd.

#65 m_hael

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Posted 19 February 2005 - 05:48 AM

QUOTE(twistedsymphony @ Feb 18 2005, 06:40 PM)
I find it much more entertaining than your opinions of software developers.

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LOL - what do you think I AM? I've been an engine programmer in games since 1998.


1. when we refered to high def games... it was refering to generating higher resolution assets (textures, models) such that when the game runs in say 1080i it does not LOOK like a 640x480 game scaled up. This is the time consuming part; it is VERY easy to make a low res game RUN in high resolution, its much more time consuming to make that game LOOK good while doing it.

2. Prince of Persia Warrior within, arguably one of the larger titles from Ubisoft last year... BUGGED to DEATH... requires a patch.. can't do one... because they have no distro path.

3. What I meant regarding developments isn't that NOTHING has developed.. its that as TASK A becomes easier people expect TASK A + 10... thus the actual net results are NO GAIN but better games.

4. Many developers concentrate SOLELY on the console versions of their games... then the publishers dish out the PC work to a different company on the cheap who then simply take the console version and make it work in DirectX...




#66 Yuyu

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Posted 19 February 2005 - 07:27 AM

QUOTE(m_hael @ Feb 18 2005, 09:54 PM)
Many developers concentrate SOLELY on the console versions of their games... then the publishers dish out the PC work to a different company on the cheap who then simply take the console version and make it work in DirectX...

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Which brings us back to XNA... easier to port from one platform to another.


#67 m_hael

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Posted 19 February 2005 - 08:24 AM

QUOTE(Yuyu @ Feb 18 2005, 10:33 PM)
Which brings us back to XNA... easier to port from one platform to another.

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wrong - easier to port from Xenon to PC... thats it.. does nothing for any other platform

#68 twistedsymphony

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Posted 20 February 2005 - 01:00 AM

I understand you work in game development, it doesn't mean I find your opinions on the subject interesting.

I myself work in engineering software development; essentially software that generates accurate 3D models of parts for FEA, engineering drawing etc. I know what tools are available to help developers with that sort of thing. Every few months there's always some new version of whatever software you're using with new features that make the job easier, whether it be straight coding, 3D modeling, animation, 2D graphics/textures, newer software that makes things easier is always coming out. I'm not saying peoples expectations don't increase but typically the only expectations that arise are that the software take advantage of the new development tools and hardware that have become available. The only time things really get harder is when drastically new advancements come about, for instance when we stopped playing 2D games and started playing 3D games, but when new things like that come about we also leave other things behind. (we needed 3D animators but no longer needed 2D animators)

As for it taking longer to develop higher resolution textures and models, not always, it has been my experience that more often than not higher resolution textures and models are created from the get go and then are significantly paired down to work within the limitations of the medium. Going by that token the development should take less time because now with more horsepower the developers won't have to spend as much time shaving down the models and textures.

#69 mikeandbandit

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Posted 20 February 2005 - 01:17 AM

QUOTE(twistedsymphony @ Feb 19 2005, 07:06 PM)
I understand you work in game development, it doesn't mean I find your opinions on the subject interesting.

I myself work in engineering software development; essentially software that generates accurate 3D models of parts for FEA, engineering drawing etc. I know what tools are available to help developers with that sort of thing. Every few months there's always some new version of whatever software you're using with new features that make the job easier, whether it be straight coding, 3D modeling, animation, 2D graphics/textures, newer software that makes things easier is always coming out. I'm not saying peoples expectations don't increase but typically the only expectations that arise are that the software take advantage of the new development tools and hardware that have become available. The only time things really get harder is when drastically new advancements come about, for instance when we stopped playing 2D games and started playing 3D games, but when new things like that come about we also leave other things behind. (we needed 3D animators but no longer needed 2D animators)

As for it taking longer to develop higher resolution textures and models, not always, it has been my experience that more often than not higher resolution textures and models are created from the get go and then are significantly paired down to work within the limitations of the medium. Going by that token the development should take less time because now with more horsepower the developers won't have to spend as much time shaving down the models and textures.

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personally i feel development will take just as much time, as the horsepower in these things allows for incredible AI and physics. what i mean is this, developers can now program AI to independantly make up their minds, but thay also have to ensure that they dont go and gather on the roof of a delapidated house, and due to real weight and physics crash the roof in, causing incredible splintering effects which may be too much for the system to handle and in effect causing a crash on the system. I know it sounds far fetched, but bethesda ran into a similar problem where in their upcoming oblivion game, the guards would fight amoung themselves, and theives, seeing the guards were occupied beating the snot out of each other would pilfer everything in sight and prisoners would escape from prison. basically developers now have to ensure their massively complex world doest get too realistic and maintain a certain amount of controll over it.

#70 twistedsymphony

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Posted 20 February 2005 - 06:28 AM

QUOTE(mikeandbandit @ Feb 19 2005, 07:23 PM)
personally i feel development will take just as much time, as the horsepower in these things allows for incredible AI and physics. what i mean is this, developers can now program AI to independantly make up their minds, but thay also have to ensure that they dont go and gather on the roof of a delapidated house, and due to real weight and physics crash the roof in, causing incredible splintering effects which may be too much for the system to handle and in effect causing a crash on the system. I know it sounds far fetched, but bethesda ran into a similar problem where in their upcoming oblivion game, the guards would fight amoung themselves, and theives, seeing the guards were occupied beating the snot out of each other would pilfer everything in sight and prisoners would escape from prison. basically developers now have to ensure their massively complex world doest get too realistic and maintain a certain amount of controll over it.

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beerchug.gif exactly!

like I said new technologies remove the need for certain tasks while bringing about the need for new ones. Devs no longer need to program in pseudo AIs but now they need to test for AI's with too much of a mind of their own.

#71 enderandrew

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Posted 21 February 2005 - 07:33 AM

This is complete bullshit.

The XBox has very limited memory. The XBox 2 will have limited memory. The box will only support so much in the way of textures. The XBox 2 will be far superior to the XBox 1, however, I doubt games are really going to be pushing the barrier when you need HD-DVD's just because of textures.

#72 Wedding-shirt

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Posted 22 February 2005 - 01:16 AM

I believe you guys are forgeting about the regular X-box. When the XB2 comes out, MS will NOT discontinue the old XB.

The people who can't afford the new XB2 will just just keep their XB. And the people who never purchased an XB may decide to do so when it goes down to 99 dollars.

MS will sell a lot more XBs this year than XB2s. The same thing will probably be true next year also. Only when the XB2 goes down in price to where the mainstream audience can afford it will it be widely adopted.

As far as two versions of games, that will happen. Games will be developed for the XB2 and regular XB simultaneously.

It wouldn't make any sense to make two different XB2s. Because in year the price will go down considerably, in two years again the price will drop.

If we're talking Christmas 2005 it sounds like a great idea but what happens when the XB2 has been out a couple of years and the technology is outdated enough that they can sell them for $200 a piece for the HIGH END system? Where will that leave the low end system? Who would want to pay $80 for a hd-dvd game who's graphics get overtaken by $50 PC games?

Two systems would be too confusing and really not necessary.

What they really need is one system, a real kickass system at a kickass price.

They can introduce a more expensive XB2 that includes an HD but that's about it.

That's my humble opinion at least.







#73 enderandrew

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Posted 22 February 2005 - 03:13 AM

You're right. When the PS2 first launched, the released games on both PS1 and PS2 simulatenously. You could get Madden on both platforms.

The difference was one cost $50-$60, and the other cost around $30.

Video games used to cost around $30 when I was a kid. And yes, some games push $60-$65 today. When M$ won't start selling games at $99 overnight, because they won't sell enough copies.

At X price they can sell Y copies. They look at the conversion of those two variables, and maximize profit.

XBox 2 titles may start at $70, but not much more than that.

#74 whet1134

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Posted 24 February 2005 - 04:25 PM

Sorry to bump an old thread, but I think this is pretty damn cool!

http://dvd.ign.com/a...0/590428p1.html

How rad would it be if Xbox2 (or Xbox2.5, Xbox3, whatever) used this new storage? I don't really care that much about the 1Tb of data storage so much as I care about the 1Gbps transfer rate. If you put only 10Gb of data on there, say goodbye to load times! Anyway, I thought it was cool.

Edited by whet1134, 24 February 2005 - 04:26 PM.


#75 WARLIKE

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Posted 26 February 2005 - 11:41 AM

QUOTE(whet1134 @ Feb 24 2005, 10:31 AM)
Sorry to bump an old thread, but I think this is pretty damn cool!

http://dvd.ign.com/a...0/590428p1.html

How rad would it be if Xbox2 (or Xbox2.5, Xbox3, whatever) used this new storage?  I don't really care that much about the 1Tb of data storage so much as I care about the 1Gbps transfer rate.  If you put only 10Gb of data on there, say goodbye to load times!  Anyway, I thought it was cool.

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LT depends on program optimization more that the transfer rate of the medium.

How is the game designed?

Tribes Vengence v.s. Tomb Radier Angel of Darkness

Edited by WARLIKE, 26 February 2005 - 11:42 AM.





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