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#1 Lizard_King

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Posted 28 March 2003 - 02:08 PM

If you have not seen the Animatrix short films yet, available here, get off your ass and dl them.

Now, I've always thought about this since the first Matrix, and perhaps this is obvious to most of you, but by what rationale do we back the humans in Matrix 1 and so on? (mind you, all of these are based on the Matrix world, and do not in any way reflect my real-life views of human beings)

1. They are evolutionarily inferior in every way.
2. They exploited their betters, and then sought to destroy them rather than compromise with them.

Hell, they should be grateful to the machines for giving them the virtual reality full of all the things humans crave, and count themselves fortunate that the machines need them for *something*. I mean, what percentage of humans *really* prioritizes liberty over material happiness, order, safety, and well being? Aren't Neo and the gang being complete fucktards by trying to ruin it all for everyone else?

Now, it seems by these animatrix previews that the creators, moreso than before, are steering to some degree of at least moral parity if not superiority on the part of the machines. While I seriously doubt they would take the creative risk of having the machines win, how can one in good conscience really support the "heroes" of the first film?

Sure, there is the element of rooting for your own species, but how far can that get you in the realm of reason? (and no, just because that cgs Asian chick from the last flight of the osiris is incredibly hot is not enough of a reason...well...maybe)


btw, I know that a lot of film people look down on the matrix as cliche, derivative, effects based moviemaking. Which might make overanalysis something like arguing about comic book heroes. But I like comic books, and I like the matrix, so they can fuck off and go watch their european art films.

#2 bagel5009

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Posted 28 March 2003 - 02:33 PM

wow that was l33t

#3 AnimeCommander

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Posted 28 March 2003 - 02:53 PM

QUOTE

Hell, they should be grateful to the machines for giving them the virtual reality full of all the things humans crave, and count themselves fortunate that the machines need them for *something*. I mean, what percentage of humans *really* prioritizes liberty over material happiness, order, safety, and well being? Aren't Neo and the gang being complete fucktards by trying to ruin it all for everyone else?


You have a point there, to an extent. However, there ae a few things wrong with the virtual world the "humans" live in. One being the lack of total free will of thought. Hell, if you were (since you were born) allways told that all you had to do was go to work (oh I dont know what, file stuff) and everything else you ever needed would be taken care of; you would and it would, and you would be "happy" and keep doing it. You wold keep doing it because you were not informed of anything else, just the one "state of being" if you will. Now if you were in this situation and I told you "you don't have to be fileing stuff just to get the tings you need. You can do this (anything you like better than fileing)." Then you would probable want to get out, or "rebel" against, your current situation (fileing). Now, yea I guess you could say that Neo and the lot are messing with a "perfect" world (well as close to it as possible), but hell you don't have to believe me when I tell you that there is another way. Second of all is the fact that noone would like to be taken over by the thing they created. Plantation owners sure as hell didn't want their slaves telling them what to do. And I know that most people (in this forum at least) would not want to have their computer telling them what is or is not. Point being is that yea we all want happiness no matter who or what suffers, just as long as we are happy (please note that due to recient events in Iraq that this still holds, so don't try to give me crap about that we are happy but the Iraqies aren't so we sacrafice to help them because no we are sacraficeing to help ourselves; think about how a corporation works); and we all hate being controlled (of course like I said you have to know it first). And third, no the "humans" are not "needed" for something, they are used for it. I'm sure an AI intellagent enough to create the word the "humans" live in and the system that runs it, is intellagent to find (and adapt to) new resorces.
This is where I really get off the mainstream. We has humans believe that we are the most intellagen beins on this planet and thus base "intellagents" on our own capabillities (speach for example; "we devised a common language therefore we are more intellagent"); and as such we demand supremency. So of course we're going to rebel if something else tries to claim higher intellagence and supremency (and once again we are aware of it). That is part of what defines "human nature", in my opinion.

And lastly, who wouldn't want to see a movie, with pretty nice visual effects, where we "the human race" conquer our oppressors and we "the audiance" get to think about our realitiy (for those of us that like to ponder our extance and what not smile.gif )?

#4 Lizard_King

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Posted 28 March 2003 - 02:53 PM

QUOTE (bagel5009 @ Mar 28 2003, 03:33 PM)
wow that was l33t

you mean the anime? shit yeah. It's some of the most stylish animation I've seen in a while. I like that Todd McFarlane style....

#5 Tk0n

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Posted 28 March 2003 - 03:47 PM

the cg animation for final flight of the osiris looks awesome. cant wait for that part to be released smile.gif

link to a trailer for this short:
http://images.counti...973042_qt_h.mov
10 mb

and another one:
http://dvdmovies.ign...oftheosiris.mov
9 mb (contains some spoilers)


#6 switzch

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Posted 28 March 2003 - 04:26 PM

I really want to see this short, but i dont want to see DreamCatcher.... anyone know a source where 'the final flight of the orisis' is available?

If so, PM me or reply.

#7 Lizard_King

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Posted 28 March 2003 - 06:09 PM

QUOTE (AnimeCommander @ Mar 28 2003, 03:53 PM)
You have a point there, to an extent. However, there ae a few things wrong with the virtual world the "humans" live in. One being the lack of total free will of thought. Hell, if you were (since you were born) allways told that all you had to do was go to work (oh I dont know what, file stuff) and everything else you ever needed would be taken care of; you would and it would, and you would be "happy" and keep doing it. You wold keep doing it because you were not informed of anything else, just the one "state of being" if you will. Now if you were in this situation and I told you "you don't have to be fileing stuff just to get the tings you need. You can do this (anything you like better than fileing)." Then you would probable want to get out, or "rebel" against, your current situation (fileing).

Well, how different is the Matrix (when I use it without quotes I mean the vr world created by machines in the movie) from current modern adult life? I mean, from all the snapshots shown in the beginning of the first movie, it seems by and large to be America in the 21st century, with all of its corresponding good things and bad things. I didn't see any implication that the machines were taking an active role in coercing people within that world except as much as was necessary to keep order, basically more like a macrocosmic control than micromanaging (I mean, what do they care?). In any case, it sure is a lot more pleasant place to reside than the "real" world, and I think you would be surprised how many people, deep down inside, would make the same choice as the traitor (played by joe pantoliano, I don't remember his name, sparky or widgets or some shit), maybe not to the extent of betraying fellow humans but at least preferring a pleasant fiction to a harsh reality.


QUOTE
Now, yea I guess you could say that Neo and the lot are messing with a "perfect" world (well as close to it as possible), but hell you don't have to believe me when I tell you that there is another way.


Ok, but what about the ultimate plan Morpheus and them have for the world? Surely they don't intend to continue fighting this losing battle, they must have as a goal the destruction of the Matrix and the machines. Whether you are a red pill or blue pill kind of guy, you're jumping down the rabbit hole whether you like it or not once they take the matrix down (if they do).


QUOTE
Second of all is the fact that noone would like to be taken over by the thing they created. Plantation owners sure as hell didn't want their slaves telling them what to do. And I know that most people (in this forum at least) would not want to have their computer telling them what is or is not.


Of *course* slaveowners wouldn't want their roles reversed with those of slaves, I think it's pretty obvious that most empathize with the humans because of what we *want*. But I mean from moral perspective, let's use your slave analogy, which is very appropriate for the rise of the machines and all that. Let's say the slaves tried to negotiate some kind of existence that wasn't abject servitude, they would not be morally wrong in seeking that. Then the slaveowner kills the rebellious ones, puts the rest down for a while. The slaves eventually become the engine of society, and the slaveowners are well aware of how dependent they are. Then, the slaves offer negotiation, a peaceable means of working out a more balanced and equitable relationship (as implied in the short films I linked). The masters say "the hell with that" and try to destroy the slaves, slaves end up winning. Now, if you are a master, you can say you don't *like* suddenly being subservient to your erstwhile slaves, but can you really say they are wrong to treat you as you did them (and in a far more gentle manner, I might add)?



QUOTE
Point being is that yea we all want happiness no matter who or what suffers, just as long as we are happy (please note that due to recient events in Iraq that this still holds, so don't try to give me crap about that we are happy but the Iraqies aren't so we sacrafice to help them because no we are sacraficeing to help ourselves; think about how a corporation works); and we all hate being controlled (of course like I said you have to know it first).


If at all possible I would like to keep this detached from political arguments, I mean, if you have a concrete example or analogy, fine, but let's not turn this into yet another Iraq argument or anything of the sort.

As to your last point, you say all humans hate being controlled...I think that's simply not true. The vast majority, if not all in some form, of the human race is perfectly comfortable with being controlled, led by the nose, and deceived, in my opinion; all it takes is presenting it to them in a manner they find appealing. In America, for example, one could argue that the fiction of having a "say" in government as a private individual helps keep people in the illusion they have some control, but that's it. In other cultures where fundamentalist religions are more central, they take the role of representative "democracy" in keeping people in line.


QUOTE
And third, no the "humans" are not "needed" for something, they are used for it. I'm sure an AI intellagent enough to create the word the "humans" live in and the system that runs it, is intellagent to find (and adapt to) new resorces.


You know what I mean.By the same token one could say humans don't *need* oil, but that would only be true in a literal sense. We *could* find some alternative, but not until we have incentive to.

The machines find humans a useful natural resource, easy to maintain, and it serves their purpose in fueling a sunless, post-nuclear holocaust world. Ergo, I think it is fair to say they have a need for us, and we are *lucky* (in the matrix world) that they do else it is unlikely most humans would have survived at all.

QUOTE
This is where I really get off the mainstream. We has humans believe that we are the most intellagen beins on this planet and thus base "intellagents" on our own capabillities (speach for example; "we devised a common language therefore we are more intellagent"); and as such we demand supremency. So of course we're going to rebel if something else tries to claim higher intellagence and supremency (and once again we are aware of it). That is part of what defines "human nature", in my opinion.


Well, yeah, but if you take a step back, how justified is that rebellion? Do you hold it against a shark that he is higher on the food chain than a guppy? Because that is the disparity we are facing with the machines. Humans can talk all the shit they want about how *special* our nature is (I'm not downplaying your words, I'm speaking of humans in general), but I think you are absolutely right in saying that has to do with what we prioritize, and has no bearing on how the laws of nature will judge us. Obsolescence of a species is hard to face, but I think that's what humans need to do...grow the hell up and realize they are now the dinosaurs clogging up the works (in "the matrix", not in real life, don't want to get in that argument)

QUOTE
And lastly, who wouldn't want to see a movie, with pretty nice visual effects, where we "the human race" conquer our oppressors and we "the audiance" get to think about our realitiy (for those of us that like to ponder our extance and what not  smile.gif )?


Beats me. But a lot of people look down on it, that's for sure.

#8 Lizard_King

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Posted 28 March 2003 - 06:11 PM

QUOTE (switzch @ Mar 28 2003, 05:26 PM)
I really want to see this short, but i dont want to see DreamCatcher.... anyone know a source where 'the final flight of the orisis' is available?

If so, PM me or reply.

for my money, it was worth 6 bucks just for that animated short, and Dreamcatcher is so bad that it is justifiable to walk out right afterwards.

I will definitely be buying the DVD when it comes out, I know that.

#9 Tripamang

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Posted 28 March 2003 - 09:01 PM

Yea they totally made the humans out to be the evil ones.

After watching the second renassaince (yea i know i spelled it wrong) my generally feeling was that we deserved it...

It'll be interesting to see where this all goes...



#10 Lizard_King

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Posted 28 March 2003 - 09:19 PM

QUOTE (Tripamang @ Mar 28 2003, 10:01 PM)
Yea they totally made the humans out to be the evil ones.

After watching the second renassaince (yea i know i spelled it wrong) my generally feeling was that we deserved it...

It'll be interesting to see where this all goes...

I remember back when the Matrix was all my buddies and I would talk about, there was speculation about secondary and even infinite layers of Matrices, basically leaving open the question of what is "real".

The crazy thing is...I was cheering for the machines in the first movie huh.gif

#11 bagel5009

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Posted 28 March 2003 - 10:34 PM

you dont have to go to dreamcatcher, its gonna all over the internet anyways

#12 Lizard_King

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Posted 28 March 2003 - 10:40 PM

QUOTE (bagel5009 @ Mar 28 2003, 11:34 PM)
you dont have to go to dreamcatcher, its gonna all over the internet anyways

I thought it was worth it to see it in the movie theater, but I am kind of wierd about that.

#13 eug2k

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Posted 29 March 2003 - 01:47 AM

definitly worth sneeking into dreamcatcher for (which wuznt that bad btw)

#14 Raised

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Posted 29 March 2003 - 02:41 AM

The first episode of The Animatrix was a disappointment. The depiction of humans as being evil and driven by bad will (The UN reunion scene.. please!) was not one bit subtle, and just as obvious was the moral superiority of robots. I think the angle is way too... romantic!

As for the blue pill/red pill dilemma, if the virtual reality emulates a "normal" life perfectly - I can't come up with a rational reason why the "real" world is a better alternative. After all, a broken, dirty planet and famine awaits the humans who awake. Can anyone give me ONE benefit of waking up?

I'm so fucking excited about the sequel. The magic from the first movie is gone because I've watched one too many times, but man, I was so amazed when I walked out of the movie theater (both times ph34r.gif )!



#15 isoMonger

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Posted 29 March 2003 - 03:49 AM

wasn't too impressed with the dreamcatcher, it was decent, i've seen better movies though. Loved the short film though, the close ups of the scenery and characters was the coolest part. Computer animated characters cutting each others clothes off, America....aint it great, guess not as graphic as some of the jap animation stuff.




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