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#1 Keo-Keo

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Posted 16 July 2005 - 06:32 AM

For windows users Linux is hard.. We don't need to make a windows linux.. But make linux easy to use in it's own way.. We need an easy to use update system for XDSL. Sure we could use apt-get but my system would be much simpler and if it didn't work i could easily fix it.. What is it?

UpdateX

What is UpdateX?
updateX is just a small shell script that will download another update script from a server that can easily install XDSL updates (updates that can easily fix XDSL scripts etc) new XDSL specific software and even news from XDSL?

I've been working on it most of tonight and should have a beta of UpdateX running next week so far it should download the update script and give you choices. Such as downloading software (Wine Xzoom) installing them for you ETC.. You read a cool new app the xbox-scene forums all you have to do is UpdateX and you can have it with little to no configuration! (XDSL app that is!)

Get ready UpdateX is coming!

Edited by Keo-Keo, 16 July 2005 - 06:35 AM.


#2 friedgold

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Posted 16 July 2005 - 12:47 PM

Hmm, I have some misgivings about something like this. My questions to you are

1) What exactly is it that you are trying to do which cannot be achieved using either apt or mydsl? What features to these update mechanisms lack that you need? Both of these are tried and tested solutions which a lot of people are already familiar with and have lots of existing documentation.

2) Do you think X-DSL needs 3 package management tools? I'm not sure if this is particularly user friendly as there's likely to be uncertainty as to which to use in a certain situation - there is already a fair bit of confusion over when to use apt and when to use mydsl.

3) The desired scope of your update system seem a little unclear to me. Are you proposing to make it possible to upgrade from one version of X-DSL to the next via you tool? I personally don't believe this is possible without breaking away from Damn Small Linux and redesigning various bits of the X-DSL from scratch. Or do you just want to it to be able install premade .dsl extensions (this seems to be what you are suggesting). If so why not just check the extensions you've made (xzoom, wine) work ok on Damn Small Linux and if they do submit them to extensions AT damnsmalllinux DOT org. That way they'll be added to the myDSL system and can be downloaded easily. It also means we'll be giving a bit back to the Damn Small Linux community.

#3 Keo-Keo

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Posted 16 July 2005 - 04:50 PM

QUOTE(friedgold @ Jul 16 2005, 07:58 AM)
Hmm, I have some misgivings about something like this. My questions to you are

1) What exactly is it that you are trying to do which cannot be achieved using either apt or mydsl? What features to these update mechanisms lack that you need? Both of these are tried and tested solutions which a lot of people are already familiar with


I see them not in competetion with mydsl but to compliment it.. UpdateX will install the program not just run it.. It will also create a database of installed programs by UpdateX.. Packages from UpdateX will work on the xbox unlike some program's installed by apt-get.

QUOTE
2) Do you think X-DSL needs 3 package management tools? I'm not sure if this is particularly user friendly as there's likely to be uncertainty as to which to use in a certain situation - there is already a fair bit of confusion over when to use apt and when to use mydsl.


If it helps make XDSL better and faster yes i do. Mydsl doesn't have a command line does it? UpdateX just like apt-get will install the program not just load it in to memory. It will also make it able to uninstall it.

QUOTE
3) The desired scope of your update system seem a little unclear to me. Are you proposing to make it possible to upgrade from one version of X-DSL to the next via you tool? I personally don't believe this is possible without breaking away from Damn Small Linux and redesigning various bits of the X-DSL from scratch. Or do you just want to it to be able install premade .dsl extensions (this seems to be what you are suggesting). If so why not just check the extensions you've made (xzoom, wine) work ok on Damn Small Linux and if they do submit them to extensions AT damnsmalllinux DOT org. That way they'll be added to the myDSL system and can be downloaded easily. It also means we'll be giving a bit back to the Damn Small Linux community.


Again we both know that upgrading XDSL will be very hard.. I don't plan to make it upgrading.. Apt-get can take care of upgrading. UpdateX will take care of xbox specific programs and applications. I don't mind hosting the .dsl extentions on their server but i'd rather use my system because if somthing doesn't work/is broken i understand the system a bit better patching it relies on me..

#4 friedgold

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Posted 16 July 2005 - 10:25 PM

QUOTE(Keo-Keo @ Jul 16 2005, 06:01 PM)
I see them not in competetion with mydsl but to compliment it.. UpdateX will install the program not just run it..

QUOTE
UpdateX just like apt-get will install the program not just load it in to memory

I asked you what it what you are wanting to do that cannot be achieved using either apt or mydsl. You didn't really answer this. You said you don't want it to compete with mydsl and want it to work like apt. So my original question remains: what you are wanting to do with UpdateX that cannot be achieved using apt. What features does apt lack that you feel makes it unsuitable?
QUOTE
Packages from UpdateX will work on the xbox unlike some program's installed by apt-get.

This isn't a limitation of apt. The reason you'll might sometimes run into problems installing package via apt as they have been designed for Debian and X-DSL is not Debian. This could be fixed by remaking those packages for X-DSL and providing are own respository. This isn't necessarily something I think we should do but this really would be the right way of implimenting any kind of update system.
QUOTE
Mydsl doesn't have a command line does it?
You can load DSL extensions using the command line tool mydsl-load. There is no command line version of the download panel though. Is this that big a issue? Your first post said the reason you wanted a new update system was to make it easy for windows users. Surely a GUI app is better if this is the goal.
QUOTE
UpdateX will take care of xbox specific programs and applications.

Im not sure what you mean by this. I would usually take this phrase to mean the stuff which only works on the Xbox like:

-The kernel
-xbox-tools (from xbox-linux.org)
-the install scripts I've written/startup scripts I've changed.

However in your original post you mentioned updateX would give you the ability to download apps like Wine, Xzoom. There are not Xbox specific as they'll work perfectly happily on a PC (in fact I tried you Xzoom extension today on my PC and it worked great). So again I'll like you to clarify the scope you want your update program to have. Will it only update xbox specific stuff or not? If you think it should update more then what would be your criteria for including something in this update system?
QUOTE
I don't mind hosting the .dsl extentions on their server but i'd rather use my system because if somthing doesn't work/is broken i understand the system a bit better patching it relies on me..

View Post


If you are not planning on testing these extensions (wine, xzoom) out on the PC and submitting them to Damn Small Linux then do you mind if I do? I personally have benefited a lot from the Damn Small Linux community. Not only is X-DSL based entirely on Damn Small Linux but I've learnt a great deal from participating in their communty forums and chat room. I would like to give back to this community as much as I can.

I have previously stated that I want X-DSL to simply be port of Damn Small Linux on the Xbox. I like Damn Small Linux and don't want to turn it into a whole new distro. Adding a update system onto X-DSL which isn't present in DSL is therefore contrary to my wishes. I get the feeling you don't agree with this and have different goals. Is this the case? If so I have previously made the suggestion that we can collaborate on a standard version which is basically Damn Small Linux for the Xbox and you (and anyone else who is interested) can offer an enhanced version with more features/apps etc. What do you think to this idea? If you don't like this idea but we can't agree on our goals how do you suggest we settle this?

#5 x-fox

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Posted 16 July 2005 - 11:10 PM

QUOTE(friedgold @ Jul 16 2005, 11:36 PM)
X-DSL is not Debian.

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Hi friedgold. You got me confused a little when you say xdsl is not debian. I was given to understand that xdsl is based on dsl which is based on knoppix which is based on debian woody (old stable). I am scratching my head now as I have fully upgraded xdsl to debian sarge (new stable) using apt-get. Could you clarify what you mean. Good luck with the new version of xdsl. And I agree with you that xdsl should remain as a port of dsl. I love dsl on my pc and xbox. I am also working on a port of xdsl for kids as a fun educational tool.

Edited by x-fox, 16 July 2005 - 11:15 PM.


#6 x-fox

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Posted 16 July 2005 - 11:37 PM

I think what keo is sugjesting could eaily be done with apt-get and your own cvs repository or the xbox linux cvs. Just make your scripts, put em in your cvs and give people the url to put in their apt-sources file and bingo. apt is easy to use and for those who have not used it there is a short learning curve so another package manager is pointless in my opinion.

#7 friedgold

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Posted 16 July 2005 - 11:38 PM

QUOTE(x-fox @ Jul 17 2005, 12:21 AM)
Hi friedgold. You got me confused a little when you say xdsl is not debian. I was given to understand that xdsl is based on dsl which is based on knoppix which is based on debian woody (old stable). I am scratching my head now as I have fully upgraded xdsl to debian sarge (new stable) using apt-get. Could you clarify what you mean. Good luck with the new version of xdsl. And I agree with you that xdsl should remain as a port of dsl. I love dsl on my pc and xbox. I am also working on a port of xdsl for kids as a fun educational tool.

View Post


X-DSL is Debian based, that's certainly true. Once you've re-enabled apt most of the programs in X-DSL are Debian packages and can be managed by apt no problem. However some programs (a good example is the K-Drive framebuffer X Server) are not available as Debian packages and so cannot be managed by apt. This is why I said X-DSL is not Debian. Since apt cannot manage everything in X-DSL it is possible that some Debian packages will not install cleanly without some extra work. In practice pretty much everything I've tried to install with apt has worked flawlessly.

Good luck with your port/remaster of X-DSL. I've been meaning to put up some info on remastering X-DSL on the wiki but haven't got around to it yet. If you need any help I'll do my best to answer your questions.

#8 x-fox

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Posted 16 July 2005 - 11:50 PM

QUOTE(friedgold @ Jul 17 2005, 12:49 AM)
Good luck with your port/remaster of X-DSL. I've been meaning to put up some info on remastering X-DSL on the wiki but haven't got around to it yet. If you need any help I'll do my best to answer your questions.

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I am not going to be so bold as to say I am going to atempt to remaster xdsl I think that is out of my league and should left to supremo's like you friedgold. To be honest before xdsl came along I simply could not get my head in to linux. DSL/XDSL is so easy to use compared to other distros and I take my hat off to you for having the vision to port it to the big box. What I intend to do is just do a loopback install make all the changes I plan to do then release the loopback file, much easier. No point in trying to reinvent the wheel. I am just going to make the wheels easier to turn for kids.

#9 Serebrus

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Posted 17 July 2005 - 03:23 AM

What's wrong with what Keo is doing? I personally await it, asa lot of stuff I've installed via apt-get seems to not work, while others work nicely. Too hit-and-miss.

What he proposes sounds perfect for me...

#10 Keo-Keo

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Posted 17 July 2005 - 07:02 AM

What i mean by xbox specific is programs like free86 alsa.. Yes i know my extensions work in DSL i created them from my work PC not the xbox ;-). Sure submit them..

I don't understand why you are against this? UpdateX will install .dsl extensions as normal programs with out having to load them? Sure the user could easily do this too but if you want to remove programs gets sticky.. Noobs having problems with installing wine won't happen. UpdateX will download and easily install wine for them. Not that i didn't see this lacking in apt-get..

Note you miss ONE! Count 1 dep in apt-get i breaks? UpdateX's programs will have the deps included. Hell the damn updateX script is less than 5kb? Plus it gives us back control..

So to anwser your question what will this do that apt-get and mydsl can't do. In retrospect nothing ONLY if the END user know's what he or she is doing. Asking this is like asking what can manual transmissions do that auto's can't.. It's the question of easy and use ability.

Hell Why couldn't updateX even work on normal DSL it would allow DSL users to install .dsl files with no mess and have an easly way of uninstalling?

UpdateX doesn't have to be in the core of XDSL .. Acutally doesn't need to be.. A extensions or just a easy file to get.. UpdateX will not break DSL.. I see why you are hostile i'll get my side projects away from XDSL and have them as add on's.. I don't wanna upset you further friedgold so far we have worked great as a team and i hope to further that with the next release of XDSL.

Edited by Keo-Keo, 17 July 2005 - 07:07 AM.


#11 friedgold

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Posted 17 July 2005 - 12:20 PM

QUOTE(Keo-Keo @ Jul 17 2005, 08:13 AM)
I don't understand why you are against this?

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To explain why I am against this let me take the example of Gentoox. When Shallax decided to get gentoo running on the Xbox he decided he needed his own package management system to keep everything up to date, install new packages etc and so created magic. He wanted to make things easy for new users and clearly he did a good job. However this was not the 'gentoo way' of doing things and some users were frustrated that it didn't support certain things gentoo would - to them Gentoox was not Gentoo. When Gentoo decided to make Xbox support official and Shallax seemed unwilling to drop magic and implement xbox support in portage a number of other developers stepped in and we now have an offical Gentoo for the Xbox.

Which is better - that's a matter of opinion. Gentoox is probably easier for those new to Linux, where as Gentoo is more flexible.

Anyway the reason I don't want this update system to be included is I want X-DSL to do things the 'Damn Small Linux way'. Adding a whole new update system to the core of X-DSL is not consistent with this, and hence my objection. There's nothing wrong with your point of view that a update system would improve X-DSL and there are probably a number of people who would like to see this. However I hope you can see where I'm coming from too and understand why I have objections.
QUOTE
UpdateX doesn't have to be in the core of XDSL .. Acutally doesn't need to be.. A extensions or just a easy file to get.. UpdateX will not break DSL

I want to ensure there is a version of X-DSL available which works just like Damn Small Linux. As long as this is the case I'll be happy. Implimenting your update system as an extension to X-DSL is entirely consistant with this and I'd be happy to see it happen. I'm never going to have any objection to having X-DSL extended in any way using extensions. This way people can pick and choose how they want X-DSL to work for them.
QUOTE
I see why you are hostile

I didn't intend to be hostile, I just wanted to state my opinion. However I can sometimes get a little over zealous when arguing my point of view. I do understand why you feel a update system would be a good addition. I know that you are just wanting to spend your time improving X-DSL and for that I'm very grateful. Your help has been much appreciated in the last few months and I hope that it will continue.

#12 x-fox

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Posted 17 July 2005 - 01:31 PM

I have noticed in this thread and a few more threads that some people seem to be having some problems with apt-get. There have been more complaints about it more recently too. I beleive the problem is that debian made sarge the new stable after the latest xdsl was released. So for those who had installed xdsl before the debian change they will still have debian stable in their apt-sources file which willl try to pull packages from the new stable (sarge) on to the old stable (woody) of which xdsl runs. a simple solution would be just to change the word "stable" to "oldstable" then do an apt-get update .

For those who installed xdsl after the dedian change you should not have any problems as oldstable is automatically used when you first enable apt-get.

For those who want to upgrade oldstable (woody) to the new debian stable (sarge) you would need to change all instances of the word "testing" to "stable" then comment out the oldstable line. then do an apt-get update apt-get upgrade. at the end of the upgrade you will experience errors but typing apt-get -f install will fix the problems encountered.

All the above worked for me after I was experiencing the kind of problems other people have been reporting.

#13 chimpanzee

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Posted 18 July 2005 - 03:21 AM

derivative on a derivative ? doesn't sound like a good idea.

If you think apt-get is not good enough, improve it may be a better way, though debian seems to be moving towards aptitude.

#14 Keo-Keo

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Posted 18 July 2005 - 04:51 AM

Techinally i named the system somthing it shouldn't be named.. It really updates nothing at all.. It's more of a download and install system for noob.. It download's and installs .dsl extensions instead of myDSL which you have to load.. It also can delete the files you installed via the system.. If it's on the system and you download it.. It will work vs apt-get in which you have to switch the sources.list and mydsl which doesn't install the program at all.

QUOTE
derivative on a derivative ? doesn't sound like a good idea.

If you think apt-get is not good enough, improve it may be a better way, though debian seems to be moving towards aptitude.


Yes understandable.. I am not a programmer.. Merely a scripter and not a great one at that.. But good enough to build a simpler system that will work like i want it to and download and install packages supported by the xbox. Knowing the software will work with little config'ing is what most of the people want.. To me this is a pointless debate.. UpdateX will not be in the core of XDSL (me and friedgold had this converstation).

The reason why i wanted such a tool in which i can control is for when i'm writing tutorals such as starcraft on the xbox.. I can say do this and if doesn't work easier for me to figure out because i created the system vs apt-get this and it doesn't resolve the dep's? Is it because i updated my system with apt-get? Is it this is it that.

To me making a system to which i fully understand will make it easier on the end user. I think thats more important than anything.

QUOTE
Anyway the reason I don't want this update system to be included is I want X-DSL to do things the 'Damn Small Linux way'. Adding a whole new update system to the core of X-DSL is not consistent with this, and hence my objection. There's nothing wrong with your point of view that a update system would improve X-DSL and there are probably a number of people who would like to see this. However I hope you can see where I'm coming from too and understand why I have objections.


Excellent point.. Users who are used to DSL would rather run things DSL way because they are used to it.. Which is why i intend to keep it seprate.. And yes now i understand where you are coming from.

Edited by Keo-Keo, 18 July 2005 - 05:05 AM.


#15 Keo-Keo

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Posted 18 July 2005 - 05:59 AM

Just a side note for people looking for the updatex beta.. It's coming soon i should have a test beta out friday.. Unfortually alot of features will not work.. So far updatex will setup the dir's and log files and can install Xzoom.dsl and WineX.dsl.. The uninstall feature will come later.. Once app's are tested and confirmed for the xbox i will add them to the list and make updatex a bit more fancy (as i get better at scripting). :-D


-Keo




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