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Is Software Discussion Moot?


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#1 shakane

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Posted 28 November 2005 - 07:40 PM

Being that we are facing a whole new architechure that likely uses signed code for the Tsop, possibly even for the cpu (ram cache), isn't it nearly redundant to discuss possible software exploits until we understand more about the hardware.
I guess what i mean to ask is, what hope is there for a software exploit of any sort at this stage of the game?

#2 krayzie

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Posted 28 November 2005 - 08:04 PM

I have hope. Maybe not much but we gotta have some don't we. I agree lots has got be learned about the hardware but discussion about ANYTHING might lead to interesting stuff and it doesn't harm if like 90% of it is useless..

#3 crosseye

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Posted 28 November 2005 - 08:59 PM

I believe we should be aware of MS using some of the same tactics they used for xbox again. For instance, even though it did not fool anyone for very long, I believe they may put what looks like the boot process somewhere that isn't super difficult to find. We remember how the MCPX actually had what we were looking for after we thought it had been found. I wouldn't put it past them to have something like this. Someone would come across it, only to be sent on a wild goose chase.
Also, we should think they continue with the way the discs were protected, and added a little more to stop what we already discovered. The protection on the discs themselves was very good, and was only overcome due to the failing of the protection on the box.
In the long run, I think it's going to take someone either getting the chipworks information, or going back to the bunnie method of dipping to discover what's going on.


EDIT: I should also like to point out since MS wanted the 360 to do so much, they incorporated many things such as connectivity of other devices and the Media Extender stuff. The more MS allows the console to do, the bigger chance they left a hole somewhere. Remember, each of these individual things would have had to been tested for protection of the console. This is a lot more than they had to do with the xbox, so think about the possible holes they never even thought of. It's kinda like editing your own writing, you tend to miss a lot cause you know what you're trying to say or how a word is meant to be spelled, but when someone else looks at it, they look from a different point of view and find "holes" you just overlooked.

Edited by crosseye, 28 November 2005 - 09:05 PM.


#4 donuthole2010

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Posted 29 November 2005 - 12:02 AM

QUOTE
EDIT: I should also like to point out since MS wanted the 360 to do so much, they incorporated many things such as connectivity of other devices and the Media Extender stuff. The more MS allows the console to do, the bigger chance they left a hole somewhere. Remember, each of these individual things would have had to been tested for protection of the console. This is a lot more than they had to do with the xbox, so think about the possible holes they never even thought of. It's kinda like editing your own writing, you tend to miss a lot cause you know what you're trying to say or how a word is meant to be spelled, but when someone else looks at it, they look from a different point of view and find "holes" you just overlooked.


That is a very good way of puting it, and i feel the same way biggrin.gif

#5 dwall4

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Posted 29 November 2005 - 02:11 AM

i feel the same way. M$ put so much effort into blocking the ways they modded to old xbox that they may have missed sumthing easy. or maybe its going to be the other way around, where the least obvious way is the only way to crack it. or maybe we are all just thinking to deep, lighten up and think of sumthing really simple. that might be the only way, or maybe i am just dreaming huh.gif

#6 1nick9

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Posted 29 November 2005 - 02:43 AM

its m$, bound to b filled with security holes tongue.gif just matter of thinking out of the box (no punt intended tongue.gif ) who nos, mayb a replacement bios isnt the way for 360, mayb buffer overflow will get us bootin games off hdd wihtout need to do anything but patch games (unlikely but hey who nos) just look at psp for eg.


cheers beerchug.gif

#7 Avenger 2.0

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Posted 29 November 2005 - 12:25 PM

QUOTE(dwall4 @ Nov 29 2005, 02:18 AM) View Post

or maybe its going to be the other way around, where the least obvious way is the only way to crack it.


Indeed
http://www.smashmyxbox.com/

#8 PedrosPad

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Posted 30 November 2005 - 01:05 AM

QUOTE(1nick9 @ Nov 29 2005, 03:50 AM) View Post

its m$, bound to b filled with security holes tongue.gif

Three bugs in 512 bytes of code? - an M$ XBOX1 story - for those who may have missed it. cool.gif

Edited by PedrosPad, 30 November 2005 - 01:14 AM.


#9 BlueCELL

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Posted 30 November 2005 - 01:42 AM

I guess for anything to be successfull we'd need the XeXDK right? or whatever its called? Because if we find a exploit then what good is it unless we can execute our own code....which needs to be compiled by the XeXDK i guess?

I'm not sure if you can take standard PowerPC compilers and compile stuff. But as far as i know you'll need some special compilers.

Correct me if Im wrong

BlueCELL

#10 vonkruel

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Posted 30 November 2005 - 04:35 AM

Hardware hack is possible - but I'm really not too optimistic on that front. People are right to point out that you can't secure the hardware 100%, but you can sure as Hell make it Difficult - and all indications are that MS has done precisely that. The first xbox hack (with all respect to Bunnie) is probably child's play compared to hacking this thing at the hardware level.

I agree that a soft-mod is where people should be pinning their hopes - I wouldn't be surprised to see that effort succeed fairly soon (less than 1 year anyway). Whether you can hack it or not - I think the 360 is worth getting - but I'll wait a few months to let them work out some manufacturing problems or whatever tongue.gif

@BlueCell: yes you would need to use a cross compiler - the same tools that developers use for the 360. The only difference is that you can't sign your executables.

Edited by vonkruel, 30 November 2005 - 04:40 AM.


#11 Transmeta

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Posted 01 December 2005 - 02:18 PM

I think we just have to go for the Hardware.

Ms are smart, they made the box possible to
upgrade thru internet, the dashboard for exampel,
and we don't know yet how much more they could
upgrade thru Internet, Kernel, firmwares etc....

Okey, now i hear some of u saying, then just dont update the
dash or what ever... but maybe then xbox live wount let you
in couse u got to have at least V X.xx to use live etc... etc....

And then again, They are smart. We don't know what they
got up in their sleaves. As an exampel: they maybe have several
steps of protection built in, and when we crack one, or almost
have it done, then they extend protection with the next level.....
And i think this apply to both hard and software (dvd's or other media)

I'm not negative, just realistic. Wy would they take the risk and make
the 360 upgradeable thru software if they didn't have some suprises
for us up in their sleaves ?????

The nightmare is that when we think that we fixed it, and the usual
companies begin to produce what we need, then MS release their update
and it's back to square one...

But i think we are gone fix it some way becouse we have some very, very
good people on our side :-)

Edited by Transmeta, 01 December 2005 - 02:21 PM.


#12 realmeister

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Posted 01 December 2005 - 04:52 PM

QUOTE(Transmeta @ Dec 1 2005, 09:25 AM) View Post

I'm not negative, just realistic. Wy would they take the risk and make
the 360 upgradeable thru software if they didn't have some suprises
for us up in their sleaves ?????

>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<

But i think we are gone fix it some way becouse we have some very, very
good people on our side :-)


Like crosseye stated above, the more M$ is trying to have the 360 do, the bigger the chance they missed something and left some backdoor wide open. Just think of the 100s of 1000s of lines of code they had to write in a minimal amount of time, so they could beat Sony to the market.

It is only aquestion of time until someone finds some hole, and then someone else will figure out how to exploit that hole to execute their own code.

Wouldn't it be sweet if this time around you can just completely unlock it with some lines of code, instead of doing a chip mod?

#13 StepsAscend

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Posted 01 December 2005 - 05:37 PM

TPM chip embedded in cpu is my bet.

#14 witte

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Posted 05 December 2005 - 06:33 PM

first of all : Howdy all, i'm back from long-time-no-hassle any of u guys with stupid questions or remarks... so here we go again wink.gif


QUOTE
Okey, now i hear some of u saying, then just dont update the
dash or what ever... but maybe then xbox live wount let you
in couse u got to have at least V X.xx to use live etc... etc....


I thought that even with the first Xbox it was impossible to connect to xbox-live if u used any kind of hack (except a modchip that can be turned off, in an xbox with the original hard-drive still in it, but hey, who wants that tongue.gif) so i guess it's not really the big issue with x360 to be able to connect to xboxlive. As far as i'm concerned i wanna be able to do more or less the same thing with X360 as what i could do with my Xbox: load games from the HD & use it as a home-video-store for my divx-collection wink.gif

There are still a lot of people who don't have an internet connection at home, so they wouldn't be able to update whatsoever, so i guess M$ won't make updates necessary, just optional.
i don't mean to offend u, this is just my humble (newbie-) opinion wink.gif






#15 stampsm

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Posted 07 December 2005 - 10:35 AM

they could be really evil to us by adding the possibility to have the system get upgraded by just playing a new game that just came out that auto updates the system. we already know it can update by a disc being inserted. i have bettter keep my mouth shut i don't want to give m$ any ideas.




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