Jump to content


Photo

Religion


  • Please log in to reply
106 replies to this topic

#106 Novahux

Novahux

    X-S Freak

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,180 posts
  • Location:Perth Australia
  • Xbox Version:v1.0
  • 360 version:v1 (xenon)

Posted 27 April 2003 - 12:52 PM

QUOTE
Anyway, of course Athiests can't ask forgiveness for their sins.. but there IS no sin for them.. Sin is whatever is not of God, since an athiests god is himself, is pretty much impossible to sin.

"As long as it doesn't hurt me or anyone else, it's OK"
"As long as I think it's OK, and I get away with it, it's OK"


Thats not really true, an Atheist would class a sin as a bad thing done.( the word still has meaning to them)

Humans have elvolved from a social group structure with an deep understanding of right and wrong (as it affects that social group) from our Gene's and parents influence, An Athesist has almost exactly the same moral ethics as any religious person.

So therefor, a "Sin" against ones personal code of conduct would torment an Atheisit more so than a Churchy as they have no way to be forgivin for that SIN. The only recourse is to repair the damage caused by that SIN and ask forgiveness from the Person affected.

#107 Lizard_King

Lizard_King

    X-S Freak

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,702 posts

Posted 27 April 2003 - 02:49 PM

QUOTE (Novahux @ Apr 27 2003, 09:15 AM)
Out of all the murderers currently in jail, how many would be of some religious faith. ?
I would guesstimate it at 99%. what say you ?

Religious people can anyway ask for forgiveness for their sins,

Agnostics & Atheists , canít do that, so it may be why they are less likely to be criminals.

A lot more people come out of prison "religious" than going into it, and many times these days in the US it is simply that militant brand of Islam known as Wahabbism. But that is neither here nor there.

1. I think your 99% figure is nonsense, for one thing. Saying that "uh, yeah, I believe in God...yeah I was baptized" does not meet even the looser definitions of most faiths. Ted Kennedy and Tom Daschle can claim up and down that they are Catholics, and the former can even pollute holy ground with his presence every Sunday, but it does not change the fact that someone who is an advocate for abortion cannot possibly be a Catholic, any more than someone who is an advocate for murder or incest. (mind you, these are not my views I am covering here, just Catholic reality as I understand it).

2. I stated before the logical impossibility of a true believer committing a sin, barring error or a moment of passion or insanity. You simply do not commit, for example, 2nd degree murder for personal gain on earth if you know you will burn in hell for it.
By definition, a criminal must in his heart be an atheist since he believes he can escape the judgement of God.

3. I believe your view of confession betrays a fundamental misunderstanding of the Catholic faith (and for one, that is only a significant part of the Christians in most countries, but far from all of them...you can't base your criticisms of all religions, or even just of Christianity, on a part of one branch of Christianity). It is not a process like brushing one's teeth every day, where sins are simply removed like magic. It involves a process of contrition and genuine remorse for one's sins; since God presumably has a "big picture" view of anything there is nothing he will not ultimately forgive you.

That does not mean one can literally or metaphorically get a away with murder; a false confession, while it may fool the priest or the parole board, does nothing for your chances of salvation.

Simply because you as an atheist are incapable of understanding a sincere confession does not make it any less worthwhile as a method of atoning for one's sins.

QUOTE
Thats not really true, an Atheist would class a sin as a bad thing done.( the word still has meaning to them)


A sin is not "a bad thing done". It is a transgression against a cosmic, absolute morality set forth by a higher power. No atheist can even begin to approach such a standard for their behaviour (the closest thing would be Objectivism, but there are serious logical issues with its absolutism since it purports to be rational to its core).

I am not saying that atheists cannot be moral people, nor that there lives can be just as virtuous in material results as a person of faith's. But it is a far more complex process that requires a great deal of introspection and self-discipline. Just as many Christians are really "Christians", most atheists simply seek a removal of moral strictures from their life, and are not sincerely seeking a rational substitute in any real form.

QUOTE
gainpresence  I think I heard that somewhere around 95% of the world claims to be religous..


Ignoring the impossibility of taking such a poll, and its relative meaningless results without some fairly deep analysis of what each person means by "religious", I know lots of people that would answer reflexively if asked "Yes, I am a (x faith)". That does not make it true, it simply means that humans are culturally conditioned to answer "yes" to that question as a default.

QUOTE
Anyway, of course Athiests can't ask forgiveness for their sins.. but there IS no sin for them.. Sin is whatever is not of God, since an athiests god is himself, is pretty much impossible to sin.

"As long as it doesn't hurt me or anyone else, it's OK"
"As long as I think it's OK, and I get away with it, it's OK"


You define hedonism, not atheism. Much like the same way ignorant people view libertarians as libertines. While I believe that such a definition encompasses the majority of mankind, whether they call themselves religious or atheist, to claim that it is the moral core of atheism is as wrongheaded as Novahux's "worst case scenario" view of Catholic confession.

Now, whether I as a person who happens to be an atheist approve of "As long as it doesn't hurt me or anyone else, it's OK" depends on whether we are talking about in a political sense or in a personal sense. As a political philosophy, I defend it to the end, simply because I don't believe in coerced morality (I mean, what's the point) where it does not serve material ends in maintaining a basic level of law and order. As a personal morality, it is a substandard, shallow way of living one's life. Even if one adheres to a purely selfish view of the world as I do, that does not mean it is unprincipled selfishness or one that does not rely on the well-being of persons other than myself to be satisfied.




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users