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Is Anyone Seriously Trying To Get A Full Windows Kernel Running?


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#46 2 Bunny

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Posted 20 October 2009 - 01:52 AM

Wow torne, you really kept following this thread! Two years! Anyway, I just wanted to know, is this ever going to even be possible? Based on some of the posts I read in some of those other threads, it seems pretty doubtful, but you guys are using all these complicated terms that make it seem close. Is it possible, or were those just "interesting ideas"?

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#47 torne

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Posted 21 October 2009 - 03:01 PM

I check back on the windows on xbox board occasionally to see if I can suggest anything to someone who's working on it. WindowsOCManage above has a plan that seems reasonable, and it sounds like he has enough knowledge to tackle the difficulties I outlined in my old posts. I wish them luck, but expect it to take time!

The reason it seemed doubtful before is that most of the people I was responding to did not really understand the problem smile.gif

#48 2 Bunny

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Posted 21 October 2009 - 10:14 PM

QUOTE(torne @ Oct 21 2009, 10:01 AM) View Post
I check back on the windows on xbox board occasionally to see if I can suggest anything to someone who's working on it. WindowsOCManage above has a plan that seems reasonable, and it sounds like he has enough knowledge to tackle the difficulties I outlined in my old posts. I wish them luck, but expect it to take time!

The reason it seemed doubtful before is that most of the people I was responding to did not really understand the problem smile.gif


Oh, I see. So it is plausible though, say within the next couple of years? I mean, I thought the xBox was being phased out of the community.

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#49 obcd

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Posted 21 October 2009 - 10:27 PM

It's possible to create a linair framebuffer on the xbox, but it doesn't exist at 0xB000. The older linux xbeboot bootloader uses it to show it's startup info on the screen. It can be used as an early stage debug output. It's just a framebuffer. Don't expect the int10 4F vesa functions to work, as those are handeled by the bios. Ideal would be to get the nic working for debug purposes. There is a working linux driver for it that can function as a guideline.
I guess that a multifunction legacy chip with an lpc interface could just give you the serial ports you are looking for if you need debug ports.

I still wonder if it makes sense to try to run a windows os on a unit with a 733MHZ celeron and 64MB ram. I know you can leave a lot of stuff out to reduce the needed resources, but the final result will be that a lot of programs won't work anymore.

Windows CE on the other hand could be usefull. It boots extremely fast and was designed for small footprints in the first place. It might give you the option to connect usb memory devices that are otherwise not recognised by the xbox, and will have your favorite windows look and feel. An application or emulator written for it can be freely distributed, and some of the development tools are freely available on the microsoft site. You want be able to run off the shelf applications, but I don't think that will work on another windows version with 64MB either. I know windows can use virtual memory, but I don't consider that a workable solution.

regards.

#50 2 Bunny

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Posted 22 October 2009 - 02:24 AM

QUOTE(obcd @ Oct 21 2009, 05:27 PM) View Post
It's possible to create a linair framebuffer on the xbox, but it doesn't exist at 0xB000. The older linux xbeboot bootloader uses it to show it's startup info on the screen. It can be used as an early stage debug output. It's just a framebuffer. Don't expect the int10 4F vesa functions to work, as those are handeled by the bios. Ideal would be to get the nic working for debug purposes. There is a working linux driver for it that can function as a guideline.
I guess that a multifunction legacy chip with an lpc interface could just give you the serial ports you are looking for if you need debug ports.

I still wonder if it makes sense to try to run a windows os on a unit with a 733MHZ celeron and 64MB ram. I know you can leave a lot of stuff out to reduce the needed resources, but the final result will be that a lot of programs won't work anymore.

Windows CE on the other hand could be usefull. It boots extremely fast and was designed for small footprints in the first place. It might give you the option to connect usb memory devices that are otherwise not recognised by the xbox, and will have your favorite windows look and feel. An application or emulator written for it can be freely distributed, and some of the development tools are freely available on the microsoft site. You want be able to run off the shelf applications, but I don't think that will work on another windows version with 64MB either. I know windows can use virtual memory, but I don't consider that a workable solution.

regards.


Nifty.

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#51 torne

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Posted 22 October 2009 - 01:29 PM

obcd: The guy wants to do it, don't shoot it down saying "oh there's no point it doesn't have enough ram" - if he manages it will be an impressive technical achievement, and there's no reason to assume it's useless. Explaining why someone's technical idea is not going to work is a different matter entirely from telling them that their *goal* is worthless... not everyone does these things for productive reasons.

2 Bunny: Not sure what you mean "phased out of the community" - nobody decided that "the community" wasn't going to do any xbox1 work any more, that's not what a community is. If WindowsOCManage wants to take this one on, then he will smile.gif

#52 obcd

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Posted 22 October 2009 - 07:32 PM

I am sorry if my reply is seen as shooting his idea down.
I was just trying to explain that the idea of a fully operational workable xp os on the xbox probably isn't possible, to avoid people starting to ask if it will be possible to run the latest directx 10 games on it once it's ready.
It's like the post that the chihiro bios has been dumped, and people wondering if that would make it possible for the xbox to have 512MB of memory and flawlessy HD video playback.

I have even recently tried to recover the sources of the wince port that was made for the xbox. Apparently, the bootloader sources have vanished, so I had to reconstruct them starting from the linux bootloader.

I don't mind sharing this knowledge as long as it looks like it might be usefull to someone. In my opinion, windows CE would be a more logic choice, and would be more doable. It just might not add you to the hall of fame with people having done great achievements for the xbox, as the prove of concept that it can be done has already been made. That doesn't mean that all the possible obstacles that might appear during the development are already solved. There is still a long way to go from the proof of concept to a usefull OS.

As always, I am just spreading my meaning here, and I am fully open for arguments against my thoughts.

regards.

#53 2 Bunny

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Posted 22 October 2009 - 09:06 PM

QUOTE(torne @ Oct 22 2009, 08:29 AM) View Post
obcd: The guy wants to do it, don't shoot it down saying "oh there's no point it doesn't have enough ram" - if he manages it will be an impressive technical achievement, and there's no reason to assume it's useless. Explaining why someone's technical idea is not going to work is a different matter entirely from telling them that their *goal* is worthless... not everyone does these things for productive reasons.

2 Bunny: Not sure what you mean "phased out of the community" - nobody decided that "the community" wasn't going to do any xbox1 work any more, that's not what a community is. If WindowsOCManage wants to take this one on, then he will smile.gif


By "phased out of the community", I meant that the attention has shifted to that wonderful shiny new xBox 360 (which is not that new anymore). The community is the group of people that make up the xBox/xB3/PlayStation 3 Community.

I like the "wince", I mean Windows CE Idea by the way. Could the xBox then run skype if you could hook up a usb soundcard and a microphone, or maybe the original headset?

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#54 obcd

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Posted 23 October 2009 - 08:37 AM

Most devices on the market like pocket pc's and smartphones based on windows CE actually run Windows Mobile.
That OS is build upon windows CE but has some extra features.
As those devices are usually portable and battery powered, they use an arm or mips processor instead of an intel x86 one.
They consume less power due to their reduced number of transistors on their silicium.
Due to that fact, pretty much all precompiled programs for Windows Mobile devices only exist for ARM and MIPS cpu's. You can't install that software on a x86 ce device.
If the sources are available, it's usually not very hard to recompile them for a x86 ce device.

Another thing you need to take into consideration is the fact that a xbox running ce, isn't using the xbox kernel anymore. This means that you need to write a driver for every usb device connected to it. So, you will need a driver for your controllers, and another one for your remote control. If you connect an usb headset, you will need a driver for that device as well. I don't know if there is an open source skype program available somewhere. If there is, I assume it can be ported to CE.

The biggest advantage of ce would be that you can freely distribute the programs.
Some development tools are also freely available on the MS website.
The license cost of the os starts at 2 euro, and depends upon the number of modules you put in.
They have to keep it that low since most manufacturers would switch over to embedded linux otherwise.

http://www.alibaba.c...400mHz_CPU.html

Previous website shows a nice example of a general purpose CE device. It's also based upon an arm cpu.

regards.

#55 pdidd

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Posted 23 October 2009 - 05:57 PM

i think the easiest thing to do is use xdsl. u can switch it to have a windows 95/98 feel. use wine to run windows apps. and if wine don't run it. learn how to write programs and write it yourself! smile.gif

#56 2 Bunny

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Posted 23 October 2009 - 09:13 PM

QUOTE(pdidd @ Oct 23 2009, 12:57 PM) View Post
i think the easiest thing to do is use xdsl. u can switch it to have a windows 95/98 feel. use wine to run windows apps. and if wine don't run it. learn how to write programs and write it yourself! smile.gif


But xDSL is soooooo flaky. I can scarcely browse the xBox Scene community forums in it. Forget about a round of classic good ol' Moto Racer for Win98. Emulated or not.

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#57 pdidd

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Posted 24 October 2009 - 02:49 AM

nah i don't believe it. when i had no money i used xdsl on xbox as my main computer. it worked awesomely. u just gota learn how to use it

#58 worldwhore3

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Posted 24 October 2009 - 07:45 AM

dsl is farrr from flaky. you need to invest the time to learn how to use the system, its actually *very* robust. it provides instant internet connectivity, it provides web browsing, download and uploading capabilities, it provides basic media playback abilities, it provides USB support for 4rd party devices, it can handle archive files (zip, tar, etc), it can act as a web server, it can be used with enough research to download torrent files, it can read/edit text files....

it really does about everything most people need out of a computer, all on your TV screen. i think someone once suggested that if you are looking for a windows ready box, to play your windows games, you should invest in a windows box.

gaming as previously stated is well taken care of by the xbox thru any of the dashboards, and the several versions of linux provide extensive computing support for the xbox. the xbox is any hackers metaphorical dream. what is hacking? learning computer work overall, and being good at it/with them (computers). *not* the hollywood idea of, "ok, im tapping into the bank network now! alright i downloaded all the codes for the money, lets get out of this system now before its too late! phew! we made it, we're rich now!"

i was raising hell on a c64 when i was your age. learn your basics, and go from there. using emelfm is simple to browse your xbox file system (hard drive), and with the advent of google today, you can learn what we had to learn on our own or thru library books at an increased speed.

i find myself using my xbox/dsl for most computing now unless im working on my websites, which i could still do from there, but i dont much like couch-potato'ing when im coding. that and i dont like gimp for advanced image processing, thou it is great for what it is. goes far beyond the possibilities of MS's native "paint" for windows.

the box is a basic computer. expect basic methods for advanced techniques of getting things done. somethings may be redundant when you are used to working with windows, but once you get past the learning curve, its very functional to the average user. and to all you dsl users in here, start hitting up the dsl forums from time to time, lend some advice! wink.gif

#59 obcd

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Posted 24 October 2009 - 09:32 AM

I guess it all depends a bit upon what you are trying to establish.
If you grow up with computers that just had command line interfaces, you will quickly jump back to those.
If you grow up in a period that windows was standard, you expect to control everything with a nice graphic shell.
Another thing is the fact everything wants to use the system to browse the internet and to play games. This are exactly 2 very demanding groups of application. In case of a browser, there is a difference between showing a simple html page, and playing an embedded youtube video on a webpage. Our desktop browsers are fully featured with plugins to play audio, to show videos, to show pdf's, that they start to become resource hungry. Video games tend to press the last bit of cpu and graphical power out of your system, and don't accept any delays....Everybody finds it normal that a PIII computer can't play the latest games, but the xbox should be capable to do it because it is a game console?

But, I think we are diverting from the original topic.

regards.


#60 2 Bunny

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Posted 24 October 2009 - 05:49 PM

QUOTE(worldwhore3 @ Oct 24 2009, 02:45 AM) View Post
dsl is farrr from flaky. you need to invest the time to learn how to use the system, its actually *very* robust. it provides instant internet connectivity, it provides web browsing, download and uploading capabilities, it provides basic media playback abilities, it provides USB support for 4rd party devices, it can handle archive files (zip, tar, etc), it can act as a web server, it can be used with enough research to download torrent files, it can read/edit text files....

it really does about everything most people need out of a computer, all on your TV screen. i think someone once suggested that if you are looking for a windows ready box, to play your windows games, you should invest in a windows box.

gaming as previously stated is well taken care of by the xbox thru any of the dashboards, and the several versions of linux provide extensive computing support for the xbox. the xbox is any hackers metaphorical dream. what is hacking? learning computer work overall, and being good at it/with them (computers). *not* the hollywood idea of, "ok, im tapping into the bank network now! alright i downloaded all the codes for the money, lets get out of this system now before its too late! phew! we made it, we're rich now!"

i was raising hell on a c64 when i was your age. learn your basics, and go from there. using emelfm is simple to browse your xbox file system (hard drive), and with the advent of google today, you can learn what we had to learn on our own or thru library books at an increased speed.

i find myself using my xbox/dsl for most computing now unless im working on my websites, which i could still do from there, but i dont much like couch-potato'ing when im coding. that and i dont like gimp for advanced image processing, thou it is great for what it is. goes far beyond the possibilities of MS's native "paint" for windows.

the box is a basic computer. expect basic methods for advanced techniques of getting things done. somethings may be redundant when you are used to working with windows, but once you get past the learning curve, its very functional to the average user. and to all you dsl users in here, start hitting up the dsl forums from time to time, lend some advice! wink.gif


Then why is it that I cannot even browse to the official Firefox Website with the entire thing getting in a loading fit and just stalling after a few seconds. Maybe you did that RAM upgrade? I didn't. I realize that it is very capable, but just the sheer slowness and cramped space that a standard 480i telly offers (I rarely use the machine with anything higher because the XBE for launching linux doesn't like to put anything on the screen).

I have worked with bad computer before. Say for instance, my laptop. 1.3GHZ processor, 512MB give or take of Ram (it only supports 1GB max), a 20GB hard drive, and the thing is INSANELY slow. On a bad day, from the time I hit the power button to the time it is completely done starting up and the Mozilla start page is up in firefox: 15 Minutes. At least it finishes loading the Firefox homepage on the Mozilla website though, even if it takes longer to fire up than the xBox.

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