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Xbox Team on Backwards Compatibility


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#16 jherre6

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Posted 06 April 2006 - 01:17 AM

Woka Woka Woka


#17 kowrip

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Posted 06 April 2006 - 02:10 AM

QUOTE(compton @ Apr 6 2006, 01:12 AM) View Post

their comment about Systems being emulated by computers that are Quantum leaps above is off base.

just Last generation PSX was almost flawlessly emulated by PC's who's stats are barely worth remembering and there has been little change since. i remember renting games and coping them to my HD with CDRWin and playing them with ePSXe on their release date (FFIX.)it was harder to find games that didn't work, although most required some small game specific tweaks.
unlike a free PSX emulator, the XBox 360 reverse game compatability IS the EXCEPTION.But if they want to make there jobs sound harder then they really are, then so be it.

You would think they are emulating the 360 on an original XBox, the way they make it sound...


Yeah, I agree. With 3 CPU cores running at 3.2GHz, they could dedicate an ENTIRE single core to emulating the Xbox. That's at LEAST 4 times the power of the 733MHz processor in the Xbox. Clearly, this should be enough for decent emulation. It seems to me that they are half-assing the BC stuff just to be able to say "we are backwards compatible", similar to "offering a $299 core Xbox system". It's more about being able to present something than being able to deliver it.


#18 Tomobobo

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Posted 06 April 2006 - 02:10 AM

Um. I don't really believe them. Most of the orriginal Xbox games that have backwards compatability are crappy games that no one would play. Games like Burnout, Madden, NBA Live, as well as plenty of other games aren't on there. THere's a reason behind this, and believe me it's not software/hardware issues.

They're not going to release backwards compatability for these popular games off the bat because.....they can make more money by making you buy the new 360 versions of the game. Why let you play Madden 06 on the 360 using your orriginal Xbox disc when they can make you pay 60 dollars for the new version. If you want to play Madden on the 360, the only option is to spend 60 bucks. Same with Burnout and NBA and half of the other bad ass games that aren't back compat.

That's just how I see it.

#19 ArkitekT

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Posted 06 April 2006 - 02:29 AM

QUOTE(psyantist @ Apr 5 2006, 11:47 PM) View Post

"We are not that stupid M$!"
-ArkitekT

Don't lump me in with your retarded ass. Who effen cares if the 360 is backwards compatable anyway. Nobody can sit here and say they spend a majority of their time playing old games from old systems. If they do, they are in need of a roundhouse kick to the face from Chuck Norris. Hell, I can't even go back and play 1st generation games cause they are so antiquated, let alone play nes or genesis crap.

Backwards compatability is all novelty and the only "cool" thing is the ability to play xbox games at a slightly higher resolution, if that is "cool". Get off MS, at least they are trying to do something. And for your conspiracy theory of being at the giant corporation's mercy of what is and isn't compatable........lay down the bong.....paranoid freak.


Wow! Ignorance rears its ugly head!
Just becauses your retarded ass doesn't play the original xbox games doesn't mean that other people don't.
Such a narrow minded point of view. I did not say that M$ was intentionally not making games backwards compatible, but the possibility exists. Use your brain Mental Midget.
Maybe you need to put the bong down. I don't even smoke.
Wake up and smell reality!

Oh and by the way, learn how to spell "compatible" genius!

Edited by ArkitekT, 06 April 2006 - 02:38 AM.


#20 kowrip

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Posted 06 April 2006 - 02:37 AM

QUOTE(ArkitekT @ Apr 6 2006, 02:36 AM) View Post

Wow! Ignorance rears its ugly head!
Just becauses your retarded ass doesn't play the original xbox games doesn't mean that other people don't.
Such a narrow minded point of view. I did not say that M$ was intentionally not making games backwards compatible, but the possibility exists. Use your brain Mental Midget.
Maybe you need to put the bong down. I don't even smoke.
Wake up and smell reality!


Agreed. He makes it seem like the original Xbox games are ANCIENT and lacking in playability when compared to 360 games. Many years ago, I could see some weight in his argument. Each generation was a drastic improvement over the previous. However, these last few generations of games have gotten to the point where there are so many enjoyable games that people would still like to play. 100% BC is definitely something I wouldn't mind seeing, even if 80% of the games I play are for the 360.

#21 sew3521

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Posted 06 April 2006 - 03:19 AM

QUOTE(compton @ Apr 5 2006, 06:12 PM) View Post

their comment about Systems being emulated by computers that are Quantum leaps above is off base.

just Last generation PSX was almost flawlessly emulated by PC's who's stats are barely worth remembering and there has been little change since. i remember renting games and coping them to my HD with CDRWin and playing them with ePSXe on their release date (FFIX.)it was harder to find games that didn't work, although most required some small game specific tweaks.
unlike a free PSX emulator, the XBox 360 reverse game compatability IS the EXCEPTION.But if they want to make there jobs sound harder then they really are, then so be it.

You would think they are emulating the 360 on an original XBox, the way they make it sound...


I dont think u realize that the more powerful a platform is the harder it is to emulate it...

#22 Mega_mil

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Posted 06 April 2006 - 03:21 AM

QUOTE(compton @ Apr 6 2006, 01:12 AM) View Post

their comment about Systems being emulated by computers that are Quantum leaps above is off base.

just Last generation PSX was almost flawlessly emulated by PC's who's stats are barely worth remembering and there has been little change since. i remember renting games and coping them to my HD with CDRWin and playing them with ePSXe on their release date (FFIX.)it was harder to find games that didn't work, although most required some small game specific tweaks.
unlike a free PSX emulator, the XBox 360 reverse game compatability IS the EXCEPTION.But if they want to make there jobs sound harder then they really are, then so be it.

You would think they are emulating the 360 on an original XBox, the way they make it sound...

I think you misunderstood their point. Yeah you can play PSX games on the PC, but this has only been going on for a few years now. They are trying to emulate a system that is 1 generation old. Think of it this way. Is the PS2 emulator out there fully working? No it's not. It plays SOME games but not enough to really rely on your PC to replace your PS2 yet. It's the same thing with the xbox 1. It's not going to be that easy since the hardware isn't remotely the same.

Edited by Mega_mil, 06 April 2006 - 03:23 AM.


#23 thax

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Posted 06 April 2006 - 03:27 AM

QUOTE(kowrip @ Apr 6 2006, 02:17 AM) View Post
Yeah, I agree. With 3 CPU cores running at 3.2GHz, they could dedicate an ENTIRE single core to emulating the Xbox. That's at LEAST 4 times the power of the 733MHz processor in the Xbox. Clearly, this should be enough for decent emulation.

This seems to be a good example of the general level of understanding of emulation. The 733 MHz Intel CISC processor in the xbox is very difficult to emulate using a 3200 MHz PPC RISC tri-core processor. MS is not using a just a single core for the emulation, they are using all 3 and it is barely enough power. Many instructions on the Intel CPU that take just a single clock require hundreds of clocks in overhead and execution on the RISC processor. This is because the RISC processor simply does not have the large set of instructions that the Intel CPU has.

A large part of the problem is ensuring that the sum of all the instructions executed take the same amount of time executing on the new processor as the old. Experiments with adjusting the clock speed on the original xbox has shown that even a small deviation in clock speed causes many games to become unplayable or unstable.

Compounding this problem is working out the bugs. This is hard work when so many variables and other bugs are in play to when trying to isolate the problem. Despite what all the armchair computer scientists think, this isn't easily accomplished with just a few months of work.

#24 makaveli91

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Posted 06 April 2006 - 04:23 AM

Really, I don't see the big deal about backwards compatibility. I bet 85% of 360 owners previously owned an xbox. And if any percentage of them are from the X-S or are into modding, then they likely own 3 or 4 xboxs. SO... Who cares if you can't play your xbox games on your 360. Just keep your xbox kicking around. I mean, if you can't take 2 minutes to hook up your xbox then you are way to lazy for your own good. Or you could have a setup with both generations of xbox kickin.

#25 T Ghost

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Posted 06 April 2006 - 05:22 AM

All the main XBOX games that I would still play run perfect on 360: Halo, Halo 2. Forza, Winning Eleven 9, GTA SA.

#26 Alex548

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Posted 06 April 2006 - 09:45 AM

Backwards compatibility of video game consoles has been quite a hot issue. I don't play any xbox 1 games on my 360, but it's nice to know I have that option. M$ could have just built the 360 without the option of Backwards compatibility, but I'm pretty sure there would be a big backlash against them if they did that.

You also must consider they're competing with Sony in the console market. What was one of the huge selling points the PS2 had? Backwards compatibility. MANY people chose the PS2 over the xbox simply because they would still be able to play their old PS1 games on the new console. Failure to make the 360 backwards compatible would have crippled the 360's selling potential. M$ is already ahead of Sony by releasing the 360. They've seperated themselves even further with their Xbox Live service. Backwards compatibility is just icing on the cake. biggrin.gif



#27 Martinchris23

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Posted 06 April 2006 - 12:53 PM

Lets clarify a few things:

1. We're not talking about an underground emulation group, who have to reverse engineer both consoles in order to work out how things are going to calculate - although MS don't own the intellectual rights to the Xbox, it's still their console as is the 360.

2. These guys are top-level programmers who should be able to do this stuff in their sleep. MS only hire the best for the job- they have the money to do this, remember?

3. The programmers have had the Xbox 360 a LOT longer than a few months. I would imagine that it's been over a YEAR now since the first development kit has been available within MS itself.

4. Agreeing with Tomobobo, the lack of BC games has NOTHING to do with competency or ability. Is it just a coincidence that some of the latest EA games (ie FIFA 06 - MILES better than FIFA 06RTFWC) aren't yet available and yet games like Black are already on the BC list?? If this really is the case, then MS are shooting themselves in the foot.

I'm 99% sure MS could write an emulator for the 360 and have it listed in the Dashboard for us to just insert an Xbox game and play it. There are too many commercial reasons why this wouldn't happen.

Martin

#28 FlashKick

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Posted 06 April 2006 - 03:48 PM

QUOTE(thax @ Apr 6 2006, 03:34 AM) View Post

This seems to be a good example of the general level of understanding of emulation. The 733 MHz Intel CISC processor in the xbox is very difficult to emulate using a 3200 MHz PPC RISC tri-core processor. MS is not using a just a single core for the emulation, they are using all 3 and it is barely enough power. Many instructions on the Intel CPU that take just a single clock require hundreds of clocks in overhead and execution on the RISC processor. This is because the RISC processor simply does not have the large set of instructions that the Intel CPU has.

A large part of the problem is ensuring that the sum of all the instructions executed take the same amount of time executing on the new processor as the old. Experiments with adjusting the clock speed on the original xbox has shown that even a small deviation in clock speed causes many games to become unplayable or unstable.

Compounding this problem is working out the bugs. This is hard work when so many variables and other bugs are in play to when trying to isolate the problem. Despite what all the armchair computer scientists think, this isn't easily accomplished with just a few months of work.



yeah, most think that the 360s PPC is so many times superior to the xbox CPU simply going by clock speed. it is probably as hard as they say, and who are we to say otherwise rolleyes.gif
either way, i hope they continue with improving it(like with ninja gaiden) and adding new games into the list.

#29 arciced

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Posted 06 April 2006 - 03:59 PM

ROFL some PUSSY deleted my post and suspended my account cause they couldn't handle how well i proved xbox360 will be under the bar in no time.. this game is one of the many to come that will show PC will be more and more supperior as newer video cards come out.. wait until 45nm GPU's it will make xbox360 be like xbox is today in gfx difference!! SCREW YOU WHOEVER YOU ARE

#30 psyantist

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Posted 06 April 2006 - 05:13 PM

QUOTE(ArkitekT @ Apr 6 2006, 02:36 AM) View Post

Just becauses


First off, if you are going to knock someone for spelling, make sure you can spell yourself, "mental midget". Secondly, it's good to see you are hanging with your conspiracy theory of MS keeping things from people, "becauses" they are MS and that is what MS does.

People here can't honestly say they go back and play games like Prince of Persia "Sands of Time" and think to themselves, wow this is better than "Warrior Within" or "Two Thrones" or go back to Madden 2004 when 2005 came out. All the Ghost Recons, new one out and you move along. GTA - Yup, I'd rather play "GTA 3" over "San Andreas" anytime.

As for old NES, SEGA and Arcade classics, there are a select few that people like to play. I'm not that naive to realize that, but honestly the vast majority of games on those systems are crap. I like some Mike Tyson's Punchout and Galaga every now and then but I sure am not going to waste valuable gaming time on older games when newer more cutting edge games are yet to be played.

Classic games are just that, Classic. Remember them for their greatness and move on.

And, ArkitekT, I am awake and I have smelled reality - It looks like a house, is a pain like a job and reaks of responsibilty. Reality is not having the luxury of sitting in my Mom's house sponging off her retirement so I can sit around and waste away playing games of yore. Hat Rack.





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