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DVD size limiting Project Gotham Racing 4


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#16 FCTE

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Posted 31 July 2007 - 01:37 AM

QUOTE(Heet @ Jul 30 2007, 07:53 PM) View Post
I see your side but if its time to accommodate game makers.....I mean I want that stuff in PGR4.


Agreed, essentially game makers are artists. I want to receive the game in it's entirety like they envisioned it to be, not crippled because of the stupid DVD format.



#17 Havok

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Posted 31 July 2007 - 01:51 AM

QUOTE(slipstream @ Jul 30 2007, 08:53 PM) View Post

diffirent textures for Day and Night? really? THAT seems like a waste-of-space to me, especially as he later says they will just use diffirent lighting instead (isnt that the diffience in real life?) other games (MMO's, Fable, Elder Scroll) all change from day to night without loading new textures, why cant a racing game?



Because they are probably were going to have lights turn on in cities etc..



#18 ethanknepp

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Posted 31 July 2007 - 01:51 AM

with xbox 360 limited to 8.5GBs for a game unless Microsoft does something, say hello to more Sony Exclusives with pretty unlimited space for developers from blue rays 25GBs but this wont set in for another few years ...

#19 Havok

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Posted 31 July 2007 - 01:53 AM

QUOTE(xcalixxryderx @ Jul 30 2007, 09:04 PM) View Post

well they better do somthin cause i would hate to see em usin 2 disks like some of the ps1 games



I was just about to say... They can just put it on two discs.. whats the big deal...

When you get to a certain level in your career it says... "Please put in dics two to continue"

The game can have overlap so you are never swapping and swap seamlessly from disc 1 to disc 2 just the first time.

#20 slipstream

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Posted 31 July 2007 - 01:58 AM

QUOTE(Havok @ Jul 31 2007, 02:27 AM) View Post

Because they are probably were going to have lights turn on in cities etc..


I dont see how this would be an issue with textures, since the other games I mentioned work fine with using lights at night.

(not trying to attack you or anything, I just dont really understand why you would need new textures for lighting changes. Oh, and Crackdown does it, which has light-up building, again, without diffirent textures)

#21 Cyberdude93

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Posted 31 July 2007 - 02:10 AM

QUOTE(feflicker @ Jul 31 2007, 01:50 AM) View Post

Don't blame the fact that you can't fit your game on the DVD9 format on the size, blame the CODE, and ultimately the CODER.

Seconded.

There's some funky technique called procedural generation to generate content on the fly. There are many good examples of this in use, like a 96kB first person shooter, but a bit more on-topic is the Live Arcade game RoboBlitz:

QUOTE
I have some actual examples from a recent game, Roboblitz. In this game, we replaced about 95% of the textures. The game has 6 levels and for each level the developers would use 80MB of compressed textures. So, let's do the numbers, a total of 6x80=480MB. Using our tools we replaced the 480MB with about 3MB of procedural data, a pretty spectacular decrease in game size.

The game now fits within 50MB and can be downloaded through Xbox Live. Without our technology this game would weigh approx 50MB-3MB+480MB=527MB. So the gain, for Roboblitz, we saved 90% of the entire game size. That is a massive gain for the developers which allows them to reach the Live audience - something they couldn't otherwise have done.

480MB to 3MB. I think it's safe to say that'd make any 360 game have no problems fitting in 8.3GB.

Now I'm no expert, but from what I make it, using this technique would mean less work in the long run too. Write the algorithims to make textures ONCE, then you don't need to hire as many artists for every future game you make. It's a win win if you ever plan to make any game remotely similar.


And on a completely different note, I've heard that some Atari/Amiga games on multiple disks could run either asking you to swap, or play more seamlessly if you had multiple floppy drives. Bearing in mind that was in the day when floppy drives were really expensive. Regular DVD drives are dirt cheap, Microsoft could sell one at a profit and allow games to either disc-swap (for the cheap, or those who think two DVD drives is ugly) or use both at once when appropriate. And really, if 16.6GB isn't enough then unless you're making a huge RPG, you're just doing it wrong.

#22 illiteratePoet

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Posted 31 July 2007 - 02:22 AM

QUOTE(ethanknepp @ Jul 30 2007, 07:27 PM) View Post

with xbox 360 limited to 8.5GBs for a game unless Microsoft does something, say hello to more Sony Exclusives with pretty unlimited space for developers from blue rays 25GBs but this wont set in for another few years ...


Actually we will more likely see increasingly stripped down games because the 360 has a larger install base and devs will want to cater to the most people to make the most money. Basically the 360's limited capacity is dragging the average quality of games down. The 360 has been largely a disappointment for me (I don't own a PS3 as it currently has NO games that interest me). I think the last time I played my Wii was in January...o well back to PC smile.gif .

#23 PandaExpress

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Posted 31 July 2007 - 02:25 AM

QUOTE(tabsaid @ Jul 31 2007, 02:10 AM) View Post

Then they better give me and everyone else a free HD-DVD drive. Or my 400$ console will really be obsolete. Now you can see why this isn't an option. Should have been built in from launch, too late now.


If it was built in from launch day then you would have paid $600 to $700, and that would make 99% of the people cry its too expensive.
I would still like to see a $600 version with HdDvD, 160gig HDD
HDMI wireless nic and fixed rrod
and games should come in HD or DVD format (same game on 2 dvd or 1 HDdvd) like PC you can buy a CD or dvd version of most games.
I think that would fix the dvd limitation problem


#24 quarky42

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Posted 31 July 2007 - 02:25 AM

How about they offer new levels to download via Live to HDD.... no HDD is required to play the main game, but if you want all the spiffy levels they have to offer you should get a HDD. Simple. Effective. Levels would load faster off the HDD than the DVD anyway.

#25 0794

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Posted 31 July 2007 - 02:35 AM

QUOTE(feflicker @ Jul 30 2007, 07:50 PM) View Post

We've been through this, DVD9 is plenty of space. The problem comes in when developers don't want to spend the extra time/money to fully optimize their code and media support files. I guarantee they could fit it all if they took the time to optimize, they just don't want to do that when they get next to nothing for that extra time in return...

Don't blame the fact that you can't fit your game on the DVD9 format on the size, blame the CODE, and ultimately the CODER.

EDIT: How much do you want to bet the disc is packed with bloated pre-rendedered cinematics at maximum resolution and bitrate? LOL.


exactly, laziness permeates all levels of American society...

sure blame MS when you can't use your brain to code smart enough...

#26 thecowsays

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Posted 31 July 2007 - 02:42 AM

if they are too lazy to code it properly, then fuck em. they are lazy and the game was going to be shit anyway. 2 textures for day and night? who are they kidding? dynamic lighting. duh. throw a sunset in for shits and giggles. and if any game developers actually has to use 2 disks, they are just lazy. 8.5 GB is plenty for any game this generation. if gears and oblivion fit on one disk each, any other game should, too. especially a racing game. im sure there are a bunch of repeated models and textures and there are tons of ways to compress stuff like that. and the programmers are not 'artists.' thats just stupid. they are CS majors. they are engineers. their sole job is to make that game run. they dont design stuff, they dont do little artsy fartsy things. they program. they compress. they need to optimize their code and if anybody is still using prerendered movies, thats just stupid. any in game movie should be scripted and rendered in real time. save a shitload of space. ms was smart in that they didnt put an unproven format in their system. if sony happens to get lucky and (one of) their format(s finally) is accepted by the public then they took a huge gamble and won. ms went the safe, cheaper and more common sense route and put a standard dvd drive in the 360. yay. $100 cheaper. as for using the HDDVD drive for games: its USB. 480 Mb/s. thats 60MB/s. slow. thats the theoretical max, too, without any coversions and buffers and things of that nature. plus it alienates anyone who doesnt have one. dumb. if there are any more posts that i need to destroy, or companys that need my advice, let me know.

#27 edwinmcdunlap

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Posted 31 July 2007 - 03:43 AM

QUOTE(quarky42 @ Jul 30 2007, 09:01 PM) View Post

How about they offer new levels to download via Live to HDD.... no HDD is required to play the main game, but if you want all the spiffy levels they have to offer you should get a HDD. Simple. Effective. Levels would load faster off the HDD than the DVD anyway.

That would work smile.gif DLC

Edited by edwinmcdunlap, 31 July 2007 - 03:44 AM.


#28 Nightbird

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Posted 31 July 2007 - 03:45 AM

They could make this game a "Hard Drive Compatible Only" game. Have all the necessary textures on the DVD9 in a compressed format which decompress to the HD and read from there when playing. Space Problem solved?

#29 Mr007

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Posted 31 July 2007 - 03:56 AM

The dvd is fine, M$ should have had the harddrive in every console.They could of just downloaded most to the harddrive and stream the rest from the Disc.

People who say ps3 is better because of bluray are retards.Ps3 has games on bluray but it still installs most of the games on to the harddrive cause the bluray drive is so dam freaking slow.

#30 Lush

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Posted 31 July 2007 - 03:57 AM

Blue Dragon uses 3 discs...




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