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DVD size limiting Project Gotham Racing 4


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#31 lightsp33d

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Posted 31 July 2007 - 04:05 AM

I can't believe it that racing game won't fit onto Double Layer capacity disk, that is some bullshit unless there are tons of dummy files biggrin.gif

#32 XHN_SCRAPY

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Posted 31 July 2007 - 04:17 AM

Cough cough .......HD-DVD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! do IT just do it NOOOW.

#33 BillMan

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Posted 31 July 2007 - 05:18 AM

**********************************************************************
We've been through this, DVD9 is plenty of space. The problem comes in when developers don't want to spend the extra time/money to fully optimize their code and media support files. I guarantee they could fit it all if they took the time to optimize, they just don't want to do that when they get next to nothing for that extra time in return...

Don't blame the fact that you can't fit your game on the DVD9 format on the size, blame the CODE, and ultimately the CODER.

EDIT: How much do you want to bet the disc is packed with bloated pre-rendedered cinematics at maximum resolution and bitrate? LOL.
**********************************************************************
Sorry, new to this and responding to this POST

Then your talking about compressing which is a very bad idea. The more things are compressed, the more jittery they become and more CPU resource is needed. Everything runs better at an uncompressed rate. You need to remember that, and this is stricltly why devolpers don't like to do so. And if DVD9 had enough space for HD movies, we would still be using the DVD format. but we switched to HDDVD. You also need to remember most games use upscaling on the Xbox360, which with PS3 we dont need to worry about.

So remember their are reasons you dont get when you talk about compressing. Very bad idea.

Also for the compressed materials, you have to remmeber it will make your 360 work harder, which means more RROD's hahaha! So I'm sure they are trying to stay away from that. And the thing is, we dont know if it was lazzyness for the code or not. Microsoft said they were working on making it fit onto a single DVD, So i'm sure they were recording it the best they could. You all have to learn to read the full article. If they could have the game the way they wanted it to be, they would of compressed it more. (if they could) But I dont watn games compressed due to the RROD.

Running games off an HD is very very bad idea for the 360 at this point. We need to focus on having the damn console work first.

Edited by BillMan, 31 July 2007 - 05:36 AM.


#34 yaazz

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Posted 31 July 2007 - 05:34 AM

Hmm all this bickering about the 360 dieing.... EGADS! I HAVE A SOLUTION put the game on two discs....problem solved.

Although this would give the annoyance of having to switch discs to switch tracks. And all of the cars would have to be on both discs, so it might be more of a hassle then its worth.
Either way, PGR4 looks awesome so I dont care


#35 Charbless

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Posted 31 July 2007 - 05:50 AM

QUOTE(Havok @ Jul 31 2007, 02:29 AM) View Post

I was just about to say... They can just put it on two discs.. whats the big deal...

When you get to a certain level in your career it says... "Please put in dics two to continue"

The game can have overlap so you are never swapping and swap seamlessly from disc 1 to disc 2 just the first time.


They could just do it as 2 discs 1 disc for all career mode the other for whatever.

#36 luther349

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Posted 31 July 2007 - 06:13 AM

QUOTE(FCTE @ Jul 31 2007, 02:58 AM) View Post

I don't understand why MS just doesn't use the HD DVD format for games. It looks like Bluray is going to win the format war for movies, so maybe MS should buy off HD DVD and use it for games. Maybe the current 360s with a patch could utilize the USB HD DVD player for games. I don't know if the USB may be too much of a bottleneck or not.

This really blows, what about the future of 360 games? dry.gif

I guess I should start building a new gaming PC.


thats easy cost and the ongoing format war. ms did not whant to make the 360 as expensiv as the ps3 and adding hddvd as a built in drive would brought it up the the price the ps3 is and we all knoe what that did to the ps3. and ms did not whant to give the 360 a format that might die in a cuple years. so they stuck to standerd dvd for all there games for the life of the 360 they also did not whant to force hd-dvd only games couse that woulda pissed alot of people off being forced to buy a addon and would also justfy just buying a ps3.

the mastake was not including a harddrive in the core thow couse then the limits of a standerd dvd would not be so bad sence they could essently compress the maps and use the harddrive to decompress them like they did on the orignal xbox. but sence they cant depend of every 360 having a harddrive they are indeed stuck to the size of a dl dvd. you can still use compression via memery but it would give the game some nasty load time.

but relly a dl dvd is over 8 gigs of space on its own if you game is bigger then 8 gigs you fail as a coder. look at forza 2 is has over 300 cars and also tons of custom stuff and plenty of maps and it fits on a standerd dvd just fine. so whats there problem. no sence in wining abought it anyways the 360 has a nice little feature called download content if you whant to include more maps that cant fit on your porrly codded game then offer up on there for free or include a code in the game box that gives it to your for free. problem salved. hell im shure after that they can make plenty of pay content to make up for the giveaway.

Edited by luther349, 31 July 2007 - 06:14 AM.


#37 jdsony

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Posted 31 July 2007 - 07:03 AM

QUOTE(FCTE @ Jul 31 2007, 01:58 AM) View Post

I guess I should start building a new gaming PC.


Last time I checked PC games were still virtually ALL on DVD. Sure they can compress them so they install larger on the HD but in general they don't really become all that much bigger after install.

I don't see it as a problem. Yes it does make more work for DEVS and more space is better but honestly night time and daytime textures? The lighting system is obviously not based on reality. They should really work on making the game fun instead of a chore. And what's with driving in a blizzard? It's a cool idea but not for that kind of game.

Edited by jdsony, 31 July 2007 - 07:04 AM.


#38 notcrack

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Posted 31 July 2007 - 07:25 AM

Don't want to get into any of these arguments but is anyone else slightly worried by this announcement.

I remember working in gamestation (uk game shop) when the dreamcast was singing it's swan song
I love the xbox franchise, i even won a prize once for selling over 1000 in a year (strangely enough it was a limited edition halo smoke edition xbox and 500 worth of games), but using a previous technology for a nextgen console is slightly foolish, does anyone remember playing shenmue on the dreamcast 3-4 disc it was just too much. i can only hope that they put a hd-dvd inside the machine and start selling them.
who on this forum could honestly say that they wouldn't have purchased a xbox360 for 500 i very much doubt many of you

fingers crossed there is some hope over the horizon

well thats my 2 cents on the subject

PS3 does suck arse though it's just a shame that MGS4 looks so fucking ball achingly good

#39 luther349

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Posted 31 July 2007 - 08:54 AM

acully that brings another point. use more then 1 disk if its that huge of a issue. blue dragion uses 2. and back in ps1 days it wasent out of the ordnary for a game to be 4 cds long and none cryed in fact they prometed that fact to sell games and it worked. rember those ads 70 hrs of gameplay on 4 cds!!!. and if i rember cd/dvd prices to make are alot lower today then they where then.

and knoe it seems as we move along in gaming we seem to lose those insanly long games mutch shorter ones with good gfx. back in ps1 days you got both good gfx for that gen of gaming and a long assed game normaly multidisked.

Edited by luther349, 31 July 2007 - 08:58 AM.


#40 Mephilust

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Posted 31 July 2007 - 09:19 AM

So does this mean that the 360 is already falling behind?
Can they not update with patches and what not?

Oh, and what's wrong with multi disk games?
I'd have no problem wit that. :/

#41 bucko

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Posted 31 July 2007 - 09:56 AM

Why don't they use compression?

#42 ewok666

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Posted 31 July 2007 - 11:56 AM

QUOTE(feflicker @ Jul 31 2007, 01:50 AM) View Post

We've been through this, DVD9 is plenty of space. The problem comes in when developers don't want to spend the extra time/money to fully optimize their code and media support files. I guarantee they could fit it all if they took the time to optimize, they just don't want to do that when they get next to nothing for that extra time in return...

Don't blame the fact that you can't fit your game on the DVD9 format on the size, blame the CODE, and ultimately the CODER.

EDIT: How much do you want to bet the disc is packed with bloated pre-rendedered cinematics at maximum resolution and bitrate? LOL.



QUOTE(feflicker @ Jul 31 2007, 01:50 AM) View Post

We've been through this, DVD9 is plenty of space. The problem comes in when developers don't want to spend the extra time/money to fully optimize their code and media support files. I guarantee they could fit it all if they took the time to optimize, they just don't want to do that when they get next to nothing for that extra time in return...

Don't blame the fact that you can't fit your game on the DVD9 format on the size, blame the CODE, and ultimately the CODER.

EDIT: How much do you want to bet the disc is packed with bloated pre-rendedered cinematics at maximum resolution and bitrate? LOL.


Couldn't agree more. Only someone with a limited horizon, as most developers have, would come up with the idea of separate textures for different lighting conditions. Maybe someone who lives in the real world should talk to them. The buildings, roads, trees, cars.....everything....is always the same. It's just the LIGHT that makes it look differently. But hey, why not just use tons of textures instead!?


#43 cerealkillajme

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Posted 31 July 2007 - 01:14 PM

QUOTE(Cyberdude93 @ Jul 30 2007, 08:46 PM) View Post

Seconded.

There's some funky technique called procedural generation to generate content on the fly. There are many good examples of this in use, like a 96kB first person shooter, but a bit more on-topic is the Live Arcade game RoboBlitz:
480MB to 3MB. I think it's safe to say that'd make any 360 game have no problems fitting in 8.3GB.

Now I'm no expert, but from what I make it, using this technique would mean less work in the long run too. Write the algorithims to make textures ONCE, then you don't need to hire as many artists for every future game you make. It's a win win if you ever plan to make any game remotely similar.
And on a completely different note, I've heard that some Atari/Amiga games on multiple disks could run either asking you to swap, or play more seamlessly if you had multiple floppy drives. Bearing in mind that was in the day when floppy drives were really expensive. Regular DVD drives are dirt cheap, Microsoft could sell one at a profit and allow games to either disc-swap (for the cheap, or those who think two DVD drives is ugly) or use both at once when appropriate. And really, if 16.6GB isn't enough then unless you're making a huge RPG, you're just doing it wrong.


Yeah, as I was reading the article that was the first thing that popped into my head (procedural generation). A guy I work with had told me about the the tech a few months ago and when he told me the first thing I thought at the time was, "well, guess Bluray won't be needed for PS3 games". I'm surprised the industry isn't already using the new tech as it looks better and saves loads of space that can be used for better things than textures. I wonder if the PGR4 devs even know about it or have used/tried it out.

Here is a pretty good Procedural Texturing Site with lots of pics and demos that show how useful the tech is. smile.gif

Edited by cerealkillajme, 31 July 2007 - 01:16 PM.


#44 Fantmx

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Posted 31 July 2007 - 02:26 PM

QUOTE(BillMan @ Jul 31 2007, 05:54 AM) View Post

**********************************************************************
We've been through this, DVD9 is plenty of space. The problem comes in when developers don't want to spend the extra time/money to fully optimize their code and media support files. I guarantee they could fit it all if they took the time to optimize, they just don't want to do that when they get next to nothing for that extra time in return...

Don't blame the fact that you can't fit your game on the DVD9 format on the size, blame the CODE, and ultimately the CODER.

EDIT: How much do you want to bet the disc is packed with bloated pre-rendedered cinematics at maximum resolution and bitrate? LOL.
**********************************************************************
Sorry, new to this and responding to this POST

Then your talking about compressing which is a very bad idea. The more things are compressed, the more jittery they become and more CPU resource is needed. Everything runs better at an uncompressed rate. You need to remember that, and this is stricltly why devolpers don't like to do so. And if DVD9 had enough space for HD movies, we would still be using the DVD format. but we switched to HDDVD. You also need to remember most games use upscaling on the Xbox360, which with PS3 we dont need to worry about.

So remember their are reasons you dont get when you talk about compressing. Very bad idea.

Also for the compressed materials, you have to remmeber it will make your 360 work harder, which means more RROD's hahaha! So I'm sure they are trying to stay away from that. And the thing is, we dont know if it was lazzyness for the code or not. Microsoft said they were working on making it fit onto a single DVD, So i'm sure they were recording it the best they could. You all have to learn to read the full article. If they could have the game the way they wanted it to be, they would of compressed it more. (if they could) But I dont watn games compressed due to the RROD.

Running games off an HD is very very bad idea for the 360 at this point. We need to focus on having the damn console work first.
Recording what? If they are using pre-rendered cut scenese, they ARE being lazy. The current generation hardware has more than enough power to render the cut scenes in real time. Nowhere in your quoted post is compression mentioned. Optimization is not compression. There is absolutely no need for multiple textures for day and night. It can all be done with lighting. The coders are being lazy.

#45 Jagosix

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Posted 31 July 2007 - 02:34 PM

QUOTE(BillMan @ Jul 31 2007, 04:54 AM) View Post

**********************************************************************
We've been through this, DVD9 is plenty of space. The problem comes in when developers don't want to spend the extra time/money to fully optimize their code and media support files. I guarantee they could fit it all if they took the time to optimize, they just don't want to do that when they get next to nothing for that extra time in return...

Don't blame the fact that you can't fit your game on the DVD9 format on the size, blame the CODE, and ultimately the CODER.

EDIT: How much do you want to bet the disc is packed with bloated pre-rendedered cinematics at maximum resolution and bitrate? LOL.
**********************************************************************
Sorry, new to this and responding to this POST

Then your talking about compressing which is a very bad idea. The more things are compressed, the more jittery they become and more CPU resource is needed. Everything runs better at an uncompressed rate. You need to remember that, and this is stricltly why devolpers don't like to do so. And if DVD9 had enough space for HD movies, we would still be using the DVD format. but we switched to HDDVD. You also need to remember most games use upscaling on the Xbox360, which with PS3 we dont need to worry about.

So remember their are reasons you dont get when you talk about compressing. Very bad idea.

Also for the compressed materials, you have to remmeber it will make your 360 work harder, which means more RROD's hahaha! So I'm sure they are trying to stay away from that. And the thing is, we dont know if it was lazzyness for the code or not. Microsoft said they were working on making it fit onto a single DVD, So i'm sure they were recording it the best they could. You all have to learn to read the full article. If they could have the game the way they wanted it to be, they would of compressed it more. (if they could) But I dont watn games compressed due to the RROD.

Running games off an HD is very very bad idea for the 360 at this point. We need to focus on having the damn console work first.


Hello Fellow Gamers. Well some companies are implementing some type of Procedural Programming in some of their games. M$ should've made it a standard from the begging. Gears of war only takes up 6.43GB (add in all the current maps & up have 7.2GB). Forza 2 takes up 6.53GB. All of this still boils down to the programmers & their ability to utilize such features. This topic has appeared before the X360 even launched. Now it rears its' head again.
IF (& that's a big IF) The programmers (Developers) really utilize this technique of procedural programming, the amount of information (data) stored on a game would easily rival that of current HD-DVD & BLuRay. Also there are different types of compression techniques that are used when making a game on all levels

You have Lossy & Lossless. Lossless is a class of data compression algorithms that allows the exact original data to be reconstructed from the compressed data (like a zip or rar file).
Lossy compression method is one where compressing data and then decompressing it retrieves data that may well be different from the original, but is close enough to be useful in some way (for ex. MP3, Mp4, Jpeg, etc). Again, just about every video game contains some form of compression. Even the ones on Sony's blu-ray. DVD9 is enough space for HD Movies. VC1 movies (movie only) will fit on a DVD9, But all the extras won't.

More space doesn't make better games. Better developers (programmers) Do. Utilizing the BEST available techniques & taking advantage of current technology will result in better games that'll use as little space as possible. Nintendo has a proven track record for utilizing space. Everyone else should learn from that.







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