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Passing Legislation


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#1 Elemino

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Posted 03 August 2007 - 02:34 PM

Just yesterday, I read an article that said the scene is now 350,000 members strong! We can't make anyone admit to, or allow us to backup our video games to protect our $60 a piece investments. So how about getting them to pass a law to make it MANDATORY retail stores/manufacturers replace broken, lost, or scratched video games at no cost to the consumer? As far as I'm concerned, you have bought/leased the software already, so doesn't that entitle you to have another copy if the first is lost or destroyed?

I propose we try our best to have a law passed which states: If the consumer can prove a media title has been stolen, lost, or severly damaged in a way it can not be utilized, that upon presentation of proof of purchase, the consumer either be reimbursed at the current msrp or provided a new copy of such title if such title is still in production.

Anyone with me on this? If they want to crack down on modders that make it possible for honest folks making backups of their video games, we should crack down on the gov't to give the consumers more rights to own the software we have already paid for! (That goes for movies and music as well.)

Edited by Elemino, 03 August 2007 - 02:37 PM.


#2 Reaper527

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Posted 03 August 2007 - 09:45 PM

the mandatory replacement program sounds like an interesting idea. i personally would favor the legality of modding while maintaining the illegality of piracy though. the mandatory replacement program isn't going to help me run XBMC on my xbox wink.gif this should help get you started though

http://www.house.gov/writerep/

you can type in your zipcode and find your local congressman. i already sent a letter to mine after the raids, and encourage everyone to do the same regardless of wether you are for or against what happened, just let them know your opinion.

#3 Chancer

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Posted 03 August 2007 - 10:23 PM

QUOTE
If the consumer can prove a media title has been stolen, lost, or severly damaged in a way it can not be utilized, that upon presentation of proof of purchase, the consumer either be reimbursed at the current msrp or provided a new copy of such title if such title is still in production.

What!!
So you buy a perfectly working game and if you lose it or damage it or get it stolen you expect someone else should foot the bill. Why should companies and suppliers/developers pay for you to mistreat something you buy. If they did that the original costs would sky rocket and then I pay when I buy a game, to support people who don't value and take care of stuff they buy. It's a non starter.
Here is a thought if you lose or damage something or don't protect your own investment then you pay for a replacement.

Edited by Chancer, 03 August 2007 - 10:25 PM.


#4 Elemino

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Posted 04 August 2007 - 03:04 AM

QUOTE(Chancer @ Aug 3 2007, 04:59 PM) View Post

What!!
So you buy a perfectly working game and if you lose it or damage it or get it stolen you expect someone else should foot the bill. Why should companies and suppliers/developers pay for you to mistreat something you buy. If they did that the original costs would sky rocket and then I pay when I buy a game, to support people who don't value and take care of stuff they buy. It's a non starter.
Here is a thought if you lose or damage something or don't protect your own investment then you pay for a replacement.
When you have millions of discs pressed for a single project, the cost per a disc, book and case is less than $1. So how much is that really costing you? When you pay $60 for a game, AT LEAST $59 of that cost is for the software, NOT the disc, book, and case.

If you don't get what I'm talking about, visit www.oasiscd.com. I've personally had a CD project pressed by them.

Edited by Elemino, 04 August 2007 - 03:06 AM.


#5 Alex548

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Posted 04 August 2007 - 03:12 AM

You fail to include the time, labor, equipment, etc... that these companies have invested into the game/piece of software.

Yes, it costs under $1 to press the final results of your labor onto a disc, but their investments in manpower and equipment is the reason we're currently paying so much.

From a business standpoint, it's not worth investing so much in a product unless you're going to turn a profit.
Legislation such as this will make businesses think twice about creating something because the bottom line might not be worth the effort.

Edited by Alex548, 04 August 2007 - 03:16 AM.


#6 Elemino

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Posted 04 August 2007 - 03:27 AM

QUOTE(Alex548 @ Aug 3 2007, 09:48 PM) View Post

You fail to include the time, labor, equipment, etc... that these companies have invested into the game/piece of software.

Yes, it costs under $1 to press the final results of your labor onto a disc, but their investments in manpower and equipment is the reason we're currently paying so much.

From a business standpoint, it's not worth investing so much in a product unless you're going to turn a profit.
Legislation such as this will make businesses think twice about creating something because the bottom line might not be worth the effort.
Trust me it will. The cost of the physical part of the software in minuscule compared to everything else. The manufacturing process as a whole, as well as shipping to the stores is nearly nothing compared to the profits made on the games. Just put it this way, when you sale any media, at that point you're making almost pure profit.

If you just made $59.50 on someone who bought a game, and the moment they put it in their xbox it gets scratched or the disc is defective, do you think it costs more to replace the physical disc or have an upset customer that decides not to buy from you again? It's simple economics, and part of any major retail model.

#7 Elemino

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Posted 04 August 2007 - 03:49 AM

You know... now that I think about it, you're right. You still own a lease to the software, disc or no disc, once you have purchased the title.

Now if only there was some way they could possibly allow you to somehow burn a disc, and then play that disc on the system. That way they wouldn't have to spend another 50 to replace your copy. If only they had a way to do that... anyone on this site have any clue how they may be able to possibly make that happen? There must be a way somewhere. Maybe if they could some how make it so that you could play backups. Maybe even moddifying the firmware somehow so that you could possibly play this cheap replacement. Someone on this site should have some idea of how that could possibly be done. Afterall, wouldn't that be worth saving MS and its affiliates 50? Hmmm...

Edited by Elemino, 04 August 2007 - 03:50 AM.


#8 Kev052683

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Posted 07 August 2007 - 03:20 AM

QUOTE(Alex548 @ Aug 3 2007, 10:48 PM) View Post

You fail to include the time, labor, equipment, etc... that these companies have invested into the game/piece of software.

Yes, it costs under $1 to press the final results of your labor onto a disc, but their investments in manpower and equipment is the reason we're currently paying so much.


So if the majority of our money is spent on the amount of time the company works on the game, making sure it is the best game it can be.... why are EA games so expensive? With that $1 in mind, their games should be worth about $4.99!




#9 ekruob

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Posted 07 August 2007 - 02:46 PM

QUOTE(Reaper527 @ Aug 4 2007, 07:21 AM) View Post

the mandatory replacement program sounds like an interesting idea. i personally would favor the legality of modding while maintaining the illegality of piracy though. the mandatory replacement program isn't going to help me run XBMC on my xbox wink.gif


Running XBMC on your Xbox in itself is illegal, full stop.

And that goes for pretty much every country in the world.

QUOTE(Elemino @ Aug 4 2007, 12:10 AM) View Post
I propose we try our best to have a law passed which states: If the consumer can prove a media title has been stolen, lost, or severly damaged in a way it can not be utilized, that upon presentation of proof of purchase, the consumer either be reimbursed at the current msrp or provided a new copy of such title if such title is still in production.

Sorry but (as was already alluded to by others) you must return the damaged/scratched disc in order to make such a scheme remotely feasible.

And there already is such a scheme in place.

All you can do is to try and force other game publishers to follow Microsoft's lead.

Edited by ekruob, 07 August 2007 - 02:48 PM.


#10 twistedsymphony

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Posted 07 August 2007 - 08:38 PM

QUOTE(Chancer @ Aug 3 2007, 05:59 PM) View Post

What!!
So you buy a perfectly working game and if you lose it or damage it or get it stolen you expect someone else should foot the bill. Why should companies and suppliers/developers pay for you to mistreat something you buy. If they did that the original costs would sky rocket and then I pay when I buy a game, to support people who don't value and take care of stuff they buy. It's a non starter.
Here is a thought if you lose or damage something or don't protect your own investment then you pay for a replacement.

I can't believe you're ever arguing that point.

Yes I think that I should have my disc replaced if I screw it up...

Why?

Because I'm not allowed to make a backup to protect my investment, Plain and simple.

If the MPAA, RIAA, and ESA want to make it so that I'm not actually buying a product that I can do with as a I please then they need to back up that stance by replacing my delivery medium so that I can continue to access that content that I still own a license to. At least replace the disc for the 10 cents it costs to press a new one.

Similarly when a new format comes out let me get the license to the content I already bought for the cost of the materials&manufacturing minus the cost of a new license.

They don't like that obviously because I wont keep rebuying stuff.

If you want to treat a CD DVD or Game like a physical product with no content license attached then you should have no problem if I do whatever I want with the disc including building walls and stacks of backups in my own home for my own use... after all it's just a physical product not a licensed product.

Unfortunately these association want it to to be a physical product when it best suits their needs (no replacements for dead media, you have to buy it again in a new format) and they want it to be a licensed product when it best suits their needs (no backups, no breaking of copy protection, no format shifting).

A law requiring them to replace the meida would FORCE them to pick a product model. Honestly I dont really care which one they choose as long as they PICK ONE.... I hate the fact that the rules that govern the product's use transforms into something else for the explicit purpose of making me spend the maximum amount of money possible. muhaha.gif

#11 Chancer

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Posted 07 August 2007 - 10:00 PM

QUOTE
Yes I think that I should have my disc replaced if I screw it up...

Sorry I can no way go with you on this. Nobody has the right to expect someone else to foot the bill for damage that you do to something.
If a system causes game damage then take the system manufacturer to task for the damage the machine they supplied caused.
If you Lose Drop Scratch your own game you have absolutely no right at all to expect a supplier of that game to cover your mistakes. Discs don't just wear out.
There is no argument to have.
The one who does the damage (renders the content unplayable in the case of the disc) pays.
QUOTE
At least replace the disc for the 10 cents it costs to press a new one.

It does not cost a mere 10 cents to replace a game disc. How much are you going to pay for the Admin of taking the calls and shipping out new copies? You can't just have one person on one phone line verifying all the claims that would roll in. There would be hundreds of thousands. all this adds up to more than 10 cents.
I stand firmly behind what I stated.

Edited by Chancer, 07 August 2007 - 10:14 PM.


#12 melongstrike

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Posted 22 August 2007 - 04:07 AM

What a topic!!!!!

I would love for a conclusion to come from this... I on one hand feel If I break my cd I should have to replace it.

On the other hand I can easily back up the data... If someone stops me from doing this they should have a system set forth that could take care of that need.

If we are not allowed to back up or date and companies shouldn't have to replace the cd that we damaged/broke/lost/reported stolen etc. what is the solution?

Chancer, I am eager to hear what you propose. With some healthy debate I am sure we as a community can solve an issue..or at least get better lines drawn with what ownership/piracy/licenses/property actually means.

Please everyone chime in

#13 Eksyte

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Posted 22 August 2007 - 02:19 PM

I prefer having modding legal and piracy illegal.

I sort of agree with replacing damaged discs, but that's not really feasable. If your disc gets scratched, I can see them replacing it on a limited basis - like 3 per year. (I know CDs and DVDs get scratched easily, but they're not so fragile that EVERY LITTLE SCRATCH makes them un-usable.) Any more than that is just careless, and big-ass company or not, they shouldn't have to make up for YOUR rampant carelessness. (If you disagree, maybe you should work on getting legislation passed that forces GM to replace your Suburban when you run off the road before worrying about "protecting" games.)

How would they regulate that, tho? They'd need to invest a good chunk of capitol into regulating it, which would either cut their earnings (which WILL NOT happen), cause them to increase the prices or both. Seems very counter-productive.

On the "lost" or "stolen" games front - NO. People would be "losing" or "having them stolen" all the time, but most of the time, they'd just be selling them. That's worse than people selling copies, to me.

Plus, I enjoy the act of modding consoles. I like running my games from my hard drive (so I don't have to get them out all the time). I don't copy or steal games, so I'm not really hurting any of these companies, and I think it's unfair that people like me should be kept from doing this stuff because a few idiots get greedy.

#14 throwingks

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Posted 22 August 2007 - 02:25 PM

Who wants to start a game insurance company with me?

We would charge $200/year for liability and $600/year for full coverage.

People under 25 will have to pay more.

I will replace your lost or damaged games, with proof of purchase and I can visibly confirm damage. Of course, you will need to meet with a claims adjuster, and we don't pay for travel.

ThrowingKs' Game Insurance
TGI - FTW

Holy shit! This is a joke turned into a helluva good idea.

Edited by throwingks, 22 August 2007 - 02:31 PM.


#15 melongstrike

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Posted 22 August 2007 - 11:44 PM

Throw I'm in smile.gif




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