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Epic's Mark Rein about UT3, Users Mods and DVD Space on Xbox 360


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#16 Ge4orce

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Posted 16 August 2007 - 01:26 AM

QUOTE(ConteZero76 @ Aug 15 2007, 07:10 PM) View Post

As you should know the maximum XBox360 DVD size is fixed.
You should be familiar with a parameter: LayerBreak=1913760
Ok, LayerBreak is the sector number where the head move from layer 0 to layer 1 and start writing backward (Opposite Track Path).
You should know also that a DVD sector is 2048 bytes so each layer holds up to 3919380480 bytes, or 7838760960 bytes total (7475,625 MB).
Well, now you've to subtract the first track size (you know, the one with the "dancing circles" in DVD Video format) twice (because that's unused on layer 1 too).
What you get back (minus something for XDVD structure, minus something for security placehold, if they still exist on XBox360) is the actual maximum DVD size.
You know, it's more like 7,05 Gb than 8,58 Gb.

See Ya!


Anyways... according to Jagosix the "Total size of all maps & full game is 6.76GB". So 7.05gb or not its still within the needed space for gow and maps tongue.gif

Edited by Ge4orce, 16 August 2007 - 01:26 AM.


#17 ConteZero76

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Posted 16 August 2007 - 01:34 AM

QUOTE(Ge4orce @ Aug 16 2007, 02:02 AM) View Post

Anyways... according to Jagosix the "Total size of all maps & full game is 6.76GB". So 7.05gb or not its still within the needed space for gow and maps tongue.gif


6.760 + 0.329 = 7.089 > 7.05

Anyway 7.05 was a supposed size (7.05 Gb is indeed the GB -as 1024Mb - size of every X360 ISO AFAIK, I just "pretend" that 7.05 GB -as 1000Mb- is the correct size when you cut out useless stuff).
Examining an ISO would give us the right number, but I've none and I'm not interested, I'm just fed up of people claiming that an XBox360 DVD can go up to 8+ Gb.




#18 flashfreak

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Posted 16 August 2007 - 02:20 AM

Im suprised no1 else picked up on this.

QUOTE
We like the PC. We like the 360. We like the PS3. We like the Macintosh. We like Linux. We will deliver UT3 for all of these platforms and it will rock on every one.


All of those platforms? They're making UT for mac and linux? It doesnt sound right, but they've kinda said that badly cos i doubt its gonna happen.

#19 quarky42

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Posted 16 August 2007 - 02:37 AM

I wish companies like Microsoft or the developers that get bitchslapped by Microsoft for admitting that the DVD9 is a LIMITATION in the near future would just shut the hell up.

Quit tap dancing.

It is simple:

A> If bluray is letting you do something that you CANNOT do with DVD in gaming and we aren't just talking about texture quality, but actual game CONTENT, then DVD *IS* a limitation and all of Microshaft's spin in the entire world is worthless. Microsoft: Quit trying to tell us the sky is green. We can very well see that it is bluray. If Microsoft REALLY wanted to support HD DVD then they should make the players SUPER cheap to add to the 360...almost so cheap that you have to get it.

B> If the HD-DVD drives were cheaper, they could renig on their earlier promise and Microshaft could release games in the HD-DVD format.


To recap: If a developer is making a game that has 80% of what they "wanted to do" on a DVD and they have to work around it and figure out how to make it downloadable or flat out missing from the 360 scene but they consider making it all available to bluray users (ps3) then DVD *IS* a limitation AND Microsoft was wrong... AGAIN.

I wouldn't buy a PS3 anyway, but I still don't like how Microsoft tried to tell everyone that "you'll never need HDDVD to play a game in this generation...DVD9 has plenty of room."...when obviously it does not have enough room to avoid horrible load times if you have to compress data to get it on there.

#20 mlmadmax

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Posted 16 August 2007 - 04:23 AM

I think what the guy is trying to say is it will be fine on whatever platform, whether it use dvd9 or blu-ray. I don't know why everyone like to debate the same hoarse shit over and over again.

I will probably get this for my PS3 and 360, so only time will tell which is superior.

#21 halo3guy

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Posted 16 August 2007 - 05:59 AM

I don't know how many people are blind to this. We're fairly "new" into the whole new-gen consoles are we're already seeing games close to (or even exceeding) the capacity of xbox 360's DVD9. No matter how MS or the fan boys can spin this, this IS a limitation and we're already hitting it SO soon into the product cycle. I don't know how the architect who designed the system specs didn't have a vision to see this. I mean DVD is a 12 (yes, twelve!!) year old technology which they're fitting into a 'next gen' console.

MS screwed up on the optical format. It's 8GB (xbox dvd) vs 50GB (bluray) - and at LEAST another 3 years left till the 'next' xbox arrives. This means that the 360 is already limiting the artists on their flexibility to deliver their content as visioned - artists who don't see such a restriction on PC (hard disk installations) and PS3 (Bluray).

I guess we'd better get used to getting lesser content, since it's not going to get any better.

Edited by halo3guy, 16 August 2007 - 06:01 AM.


#22 Jagosix

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Posted 16 August 2007 - 08:14 AM

Hello Fellow Gamers. The raw unformatted size is 8.5Gb. But as was stated (after doing some more research) it's actually from 7.92 to 7.95. That's formated & with data.
http://www.videohelp.com/dvd
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DVD

SO again lets see

Total size of all current downloaded maps & full game is 6.76GB
A full DVD9 is 8.54GB (corrected unformatted) . A x360 DVD can actually hold 7.92 - 7.95 (approximately) So the available space is 1.19GB


4 maps in Gears = 230MB
So in theory 4/x = 230MB/1.19GB x = 26 MAPS!!! biggrin.gif

That's still a lot of maps. The point I'm trying to make is the DVD isn't fully filled in. Epic could've added more maps to the disc, but didn't. Now even though the PS3 will have a bigger storage capacity when Ureal 3 comes out, but what about the new maps that aren't a part of the dics. Both consoles are on equal ground in that respect, because the newer user created content won't exist until after the game is released. Reguardless of how big your storage capacity is (PC included).

#23 ConteZero76

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Posted 16 August 2007 - 08:46 AM

Hello fellow gamers.

You should know that every XBox360 ISO is XBox360 7.572.881.408 bytes in length, with a fixed layerbreak.
As we know from XBox we can determine where the XISO track start by looking at the MICROSOFT*XBOX*MEDIA” string, it is supposed to be present twice at sector 32 of every XISO.
You'll find that the string itself is at offset 265.945.088, so the XISO itself starts at offset 265.879.552 (that's 32 sectors before that string).
Guess what ?
Considering a fixed layerbreak at sector 1.913.760 or byte 3.919.380.480 (layerbreak x 2048) we'll see that second layer holds only 3.653.500.928 bytes (7.572.881.408 - 3.919.380.480).
Some quick math tell us that 3.653.500.928 plus the size of first track we found above (265.879.552) gives us back exactly 3.919.380.480, that's mean that the ISO ends on layer 1 at the corresponding sector where 2nd track starts on layer 0.
So we can easily find how long the XISO is, it's exactly 3.653.500.928 x 2, or 7.307.001.856 bytes or 6,80 GB.
This is the gross XISO size, things like security placeholders and XISO data structures itself eat some space, leaving something less for actual files.

So please don't fire numbers like you know everything because, infact, you do not.

Edited by ConteZero76, 16 August 2007 - 08:48 AM.


#24 ludacrisvp

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Posted 16 August 2007 - 09:00 AM

QUOTE(Jagosix @ Aug 16 2007, 02:50 AM) View Post

Hello Fellow Gamers. The raw unformatted size is 8.5Gb. But as was stated (after doing some more research) it's actually from 7.92 to 7.95. That's formated & with data.
http://www.videohelp.com/dvd
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DVD

SO again lets see

Total size of all current downloaded maps & full game is 6.76GB
A full DVD9 is 8.54GB (corrected unformatted) . A x360 DVD can actually hold 7.92 - 7.95 (approximately) So the available space is 1.19GB
4 maps in Gears = 230MB
So in theory 4/x = 230MB/1.19GB x = 26 MAPS!!! biggrin.gif

That's still a lot of maps. The point I'm trying to make is the DVD isn't fully filled in. Epic could've added more maps to the disc, but didn't. Now even though the PS3 will have a bigger storage capacity when Unreal 3 comes out, but what about the new maps that aren't a part of the disc. Both consoles are on equal ground in that respect, because the newer user created content won't exist until after the game is released. Regardless of how big your storage capacity is (PC included).


You just don't get it do you?

The formatted usable space on a dual layer 360 DVD is 7.05279541015625GB, Or to round off 7.05GB.

There is NO WAY POSSIBLE for a 360 game to use more space on the DVD than this amount (7.05GB).

The position that MS chose to have the layer break on the DVD caused them to lose some space on the disc,
and combined with some of the anti-piracy features they used this is all the usable space there is on the DVD.

Here is the simple math for you (remember that this is based on the Binary system not the Decimal system.)
7572881408 (bytes) / 1024 = 7395392 (Kilobytes) / 1024 = 7222.0625 (Megabytes) / 1024 = 7.05279541015625 (Gigabytes)

And since you mention Gears Of War, why not take a look at Rainbow 6 Vegas?
If I recall correctly the PS3 version also includes 5 unreleased maps (to the 360) and also included both of the
Xbox Live downloads, oh and at no extra charge.

See this image for proof of the size
IPB Image
(image borrowed from Guide to Extracting Security Sectors, Game Images, and Burning Game Backups
by: a9h3x http://www.traptrakz.../X360/tutorial/)

The 360 is limited to 7.05GB disc size for usable content. Period. End Of Story.

Edited by ludacrisvp, 16 August 2007 - 09:02 AM.


#25 ConteZero76

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Posted 16 August 2007 - 09:11 AM

Ludacrisvp, as a matter of facts the 360 is limited to 6,80 GB (gross, something less after considering XISO structures and security placeholders) for usable content.

#26 ludacrisvp

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Posted 16 August 2007 - 09:35 AM

QUOTE(ConteZero76 @ Aug 16 2007, 03:47 AM) View Post

Ludacrisvp, as a matter of facts the 360 is limited to 6,80 GB (gross, something less after considering XISO structures and security placeholders) for usable content.

I am too tired to get into the details that much tonight. I was just going after the image size for the games, that way if he came back with well they could have modified the size of the SS or the video partition to allow for more space for the game it still will never be more than the 7.05GB, certainly not anywhere near his 7.92-7.95GB claim or the previous 8.5GB one.

#27 kidkinetix

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Posted 16 August 2007 - 02:17 PM

QUOTE(sinister slipknot @ Aug 15 2007, 11:02 PM) View Post

You can get keyboard and mice to work on the 360 with the right hardware.
Cross platform? With what, the 360 or a Windows pc? So technically the PS3 wouldnt be able to do cross platform if other platforms couldnt either. Besides with the ammount of people on Xbox LIVE i doubt your going to run out of enough players to play for the need to go cross platform. Besides, cross platform is a cool concept and its cool that its possible so its not all about having to have the right console but going cross platform doesnt make gameplay any better, and presumably not worse.


They're trying to do Cross Platform to PC. Anyways... have you read the reviews for the 'keyboard and mouse' solution for 360? They're not pretty smile.gif

But yes. 360 does have advantages as well

All I was trying to get across was that its too early to declare one version better than the other - personally I don't feel like waiting.

#28 Lordscr

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Posted 16 August 2007 - 07:08 PM

This Mark Rein guy must have something against the 360, because a smart business man would solve the problem. One thing, it not a good idea pointing out limitations, you just piss people off.

The way to solve the problem is, and all the numbers are just speculation and doesn't mater for my explanation. If the UT3 was set up with, lets say, 40 maps that you would like to ship but the "inferior" DVD9 on the 360 can only hold the game and 32 maps. You don't release the game on all format with 40 map and on the 360 with 32, then go a head and bitch about the limitation.

The best idea, from a business stand point is to release all formats with 32 maps and put the rest up for download later. BOOM, problem solved. Also, Epic could possibly make some extra with all the DLC for both the PS3 and 360.

This only took me 3 minutes to think of. So why couldn't EPIC.

#29 ludacrisvp

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Posted 16 August 2007 - 08:23 PM

QUOTE(Lordscr @ Aug 16 2007, 01:44 PM) View Post

This Mark Rein guy must have something against the 360, because a smart business man would solve the problem. One thing, it not a good idea pointing out limitations, you just piss people off.

The way to solve the problem is, and all the numbers are just speculation and doesn't mater for my explanation. If the UT3 was set up with, lets say, 40 maps that you would like to ship but the "inferior" DVD9 on the 360 can only hold the game and 32 maps. You don't release the game on all format with 40 map and on the 360 with 32, then go a head and bitch about the limitation.

The best idea, from a business stand point is to release all formats with 32 maps and put the rest up for download later. BOOM, problem solved. Also, Epic could possibly make some extra with all the DLC for both the PS3 and 360.

This only took me 3 minutes to think of. So why couldn't EPIC.

Well that may seem fine to you but what about the 360 users that don't have a hard drive?
And why force people to download files that you could have included on the disc that the game was shipped with?
Doing what you suggest would also waste bandwidth from the servers, then you will complain about lag because people are downloading the maps from the server.

Just deal with the fact that the DVD9 format is a LIMITATION.
Everyone thought that PS2 was dumb to use DVD5 and DVD9 when it was launched because 650MB or 700MB is more than enough space for a game.
In the long run it paid off more than you know by using the DVD9 format last gen, and for Sony the BluRay format will once again pay off for them.

Edited by ludacrisvp, 16 August 2007 - 08:29 PM.


#30 asspants

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Posted 16 August 2007 - 08:47 PM

I don't beleive this bullshit that they are running low on drive space.
They're not trying hard enough (i am NOT claiming that I could do better) but,
take a gander at what theprodukkt did with debris in only 170kb
http://212.202.219.162/debris/
These are the same guys that did the .kkrieger first person shooter in 96kb






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