Jump to content


Photo

Project Fr0st


  • Please log in to reply
20 replies to this topic

#1 2501

2501

    X-S Young Member

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 32 posts

Posted 08 October 2007 - 03:09 AM

Hey,

I'm back in the forums, and I'm trying not to follow the crowd. I want to save a 360 from the RRoD, so i'm going to attempt a watercooling project. The catch is I want to do it with Peltier Cooling, such as the Coolit 360 shown at CES.

CoolIT Xbox 360

I am trying to find out some values before I jump headlong into this project.
I need to know how much heat is created and/or dissipated from the CPU and GPU.


I'm trying to size a dual peltier setup with an external watercooling setup. Hopefully when I'm done... I can get that baby down to 15C or less.

I am working on a budget though, but I was able to source an old, but still unused 600watt power supply to drive the watercooling system and peltier coolers.


What do you think? is it worth it? or just go for the watercooling?


When I get more money together.. I'll start posting some pictures, until then.. I'm going to work on adapting the motherboard.

#2 RepublicofTea

RepublicofTea

    X-S Enthusiast

  • XS-BANNED
  • 9 posts
  • Xbox Version:unk
  • 360 version:unknown

Posted 08 October 2007 - 03:30 AM

Well first off I think this might get closed because i think theres a rule that "work in Progress" threads must have pictures. Or else its another "im gonna" thread i guess.

Anyways i wouldn't do watercooling myself because its bulky and cost too much when you can just do the artic silver and add a fan or two. BUT if i was to do water cooling I would make it internal which im sure costs even more, but would make it less bulky. Thats just my opinion.

Good luck and do post some pics sooon! tongue.gif

#3 brandogg

brandogg

    X-S Messiah

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,091 posts
  • Xbox Version:v1.6
  • 360 version:v4.0 (jasper)

Posted 08 October 2007 - 03:30 AM

You need to fix the 3 red lights before any new cooling mod will have any effect. Also, the 360 will not function below a certain temperature.

#4 snow rider221

snow rider221

    X-S Genius

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 930 posts
  • Location:Phoenix
  • Xbox Version:v1.6
  • 360 version:v1 (xenon)

Posted 08 October 2007 - 04:09 AM

QUOTE(brandogg @ Oct 8 2007, 04:06 AM) View Post

You need to fix the 3 red lights before any new cooling mod will have any effect. Also, the 360 will not function below a certain temperature.


if he re-pastes the chips when he puts the new waterblocks on, that should fix it all just like an x-clamp replacement would.


#5 2501

2501

    X-S Young Member

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 32 posts

Posted 08 October 2007 - 06:43 AM

I'm going to go alittle above and beyond by actually attempting to x-ray scan the board at work to see if I can find where the cold short is. The machine itself is made more for checking fuse for explosives and military esq operations. I have a hot air machine that I can use to reflow any of the chips. I'll start with pics tomorrow. The 360 is nothing but a PC on krunk-juice so it should follow the same properties of a pc.. in respect of cooling and ability to operate at sub-zero temperatures. There are PC's that some very talented individuals have made to drop below freezing, and overclock to the edge of the boards voltage capacity. The colder the system gets, the more we're flirting with superconducting properties, and the ability to carry electrons. I know watercooling, especially externally is bulky but I do not plan on moving this thing around much when its complete, so I see the merit.

#6 GSX

GSX

    X-S Freak

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,188 posts
  • Location:Agrestic, USA
  • Xbox Version:none
  • 360 version:v1 (xenon)

Posted 08 October 2007 - 09:46 AM

The article you posted dosen't go in depth on the inner workings. I assume that it works on a "chiller" basis, as I doubt they would have ppl attaching TEC's to their cpu/gpu. The peltiers will cool the liquid, which will be pumped through the water blocks. Again, this is an assumption... Is this what you're trying to do, or are you planning on attaching the TEC's to the chips directly and using the water to cool them?

As for the wattage, I believe that it's a 3.2 cpu with 3 cores(or did I lose my mind)? If that is the case I guess you can compare it to a Intel Quad, which needs a TEC in the 400W range to get temps close to 0c. This is having it mounted directly on the die.

I personally would go with the first choice I spoke off. It's safer, less if any condensation, 360 dosen't need that much cooling, and did I mention it's safer? biggrin.gif After all you won't need temps close to freezing, as you're not going to overclock anything.

I'm building a similar "chiller" setup(pc verion) and I plan to use a 158W TEC. Mind you the current one I have (46W) keeps the reservoir at 2c without load. So once I triple it, I should make some ice.

#7 2501

2501

    X-S Young Member

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 32 posts

Posted 08 October 2007 - 09:35 PM

the article I posted was just to prove that this sort of cooling has been done at least once. The inner-working of the Freezone system can be viewed at the CoolIT website. You are absolutely correct in the respect of the "chiller basis". THe system is pre-plummed and is just a plug and play solution. [H]ardOCP has a great review of the Freezone if anyone's interested. I plan on using somethign around 400W+ and use them on-die for the cooling. I'm not worried about condensation since I have a lot of conformal coating left over from a previous project. That combined with the proper steps should be enough to protect the bottom of the board, while I'll use conformal coat, dielectric grease, and/or foam insulation to protect the cores themselves. I wasen't sure how much heat the system created, so I was looking to find an uber peltier to cool everything.


As a side note, I was looking at Frozencpu.com at the 475W peltiers to use. I have the power supply to do it... I think I may custom fold a sheetmetal container and make my own kit.

#8 GSX

GSX

    X-S Freak

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,188 posts
  • Location:Agrestic, USA
  • Xbox Version:none
  • 360 version:v1 (xenon)

Posted 08 October 2007 - 10:46 PM

You will have problems with condensation for sure. Especially under the chip. You seem to know what you're doing, so you should know that the socket needs to be filled with dielectric grease. This won't be possible on a 360 as the chip is not removable. Hence it will produce condensation under the chip, which will eventually kill it.

Hope I'm wrong as i would love to see a phase change 360.. Good luck with it.

#9 2501

2501

    X-S Young Member

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 32 posts

Posted 09 October 2007 - 01:18 AM

I'm starting my teardown tonight. I'm going to remove the x-clamps and examine the board tonight. Tomorrow I plan on breaking out the ol' cad skills and draft up a couple of enclosure ideas to rest my watercooling items in. I have a buddy that works for U.S. Drillhead that does sheetmetal work all the time. I just need to design something practical that would not detract cosmetically from the 360.

Thank you for the positive words GSX, I'm still trying to plan out the best way to attain a nearly sub-zero 360, without blowing lots of cash and attaining performance results. Eventually, I'll make this something that can be replicated, and hopefully turn it into a tutorial.

I'm still thinking about how to keep the condensation out from under the BGA setup. Maybe I could flow dielectric grease under the chips? (<-- doesn't sound safe..but hey.. its the idea phase right now)


If anyone has more ideas let me know.




#10 2501

2501

    X-S Young Member

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 32 posts

Posted 11 October 2007 - 08:05 PM

Just an update

I'm still designing the external enclosure to house the watercooling and power parts, but the search goes well.

After doing some measurements, I found out how much room I have to play with as far as the heatsinks and fitting the peltiers. I should have around 1-2mm overhang on the waterblock, so everything will be covered. Supposively the coolers I picked out were 158watt.. well below my hope.. but I did not realize I was working on a size constraint.

158 watt peltier coolers

I ended up buying 3 in case I need a replacement, or decide to mod my usb drink cooler to run off AC. Total cost shipped was around $32.

I will post pics and stats for the power supply I snagged from Microcenter. 600 watt dual rail external PSU with LED readout... $46. It works.. but its just leftover stock from back in the day.


I've decided.. i'm going to use cornformal coat around the CPU/GPU to protect against moisture. The type I have at work is able to be removed without a stripping agent (think booger glue.. the stuff they adhere credit cards and stuff in magazine with).

I'll be back when the peltiers arrive and I get a Cad design of the external case.

#11 FILTHY J NASTY

FILTHY J NASTY

    X-S Genius

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 871 posts
  • Interests:Quads and cars! I used to love modding 360s, but when I got my new falcon I stopped =/ .
  • Xbox Version:none
  • 360 version:v3.0 (falcon)

Posted 11 October 2007 - 10:45 PM

How do these things actually work? Do they just go on the cpu/gpu die, and thats it?



#12 2501

2501

    X-S Young Member

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 32 posts

Posted 12 October 2007 - 03:51 AM

In this particular case, they are applied between the waterblock, and the CPU/GPU. The cold side faces the die and moves heat to the hot side. The hot side is chilled by the watercooling system.. effectively boosting the ability of the watercooling system to remove heat, and dropping the temperature of both processors to well below ambient temperature.

These are designed to get cold on one side, while hot on another when voltage is applied. They are used in portable cooler/heaters, ect. They've been used for overclocking for some time.

This is a video of something to the extent I'm trying to attain.
Boiling to 0C

if you look at wikipedia for overclocking.. they are mentioned there too.

Thermal Electric Cooling.. [TEC]

I am unsure at the moment if I need some sort of variable voltage system to keep these under control.. but that will come about through R&D. I could just make a breadboard to increase voltage applied to the TEC's as head on the die increases.




#13 marmaladeboy

marmaladeboy

    X-S Enthusiast

  • Members
  • 11 posts

Posted 12 October 2007 - 04:42 PM

You will need a serious power source if you plan to use a peltier device. You need a separate source from your 360 that should be able to pump out at least 1-3 amps at 12v dc for the average plate. You can get wall warts which can supply 1.5-3 amps from some online parts outfits. If you haven't messed with these things before there are lots of things to be careful about... you need high current and high voltage which means you will be generating a lot of heat somewhere. Also the devices MUST be actively cooled whenever they are running... they don't work like fans, they attempt to generate a temperature differential across a small distance.. if you don't keep the "hot" side cool enough the plate will overheat and break very quickly. These things are massively inefficient btw, in most cooling applications they do more harm than good.

This is an excellent guide on the subject:
http://www.heatsink-...com/peltier.htm

#14 FILTHY J NASTY

FILTHY J NASTY

    X-S Genius

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 871 posts
  • Interests:Quads and cars! I used to love modding 360s, but when I got my new falcon I stopped =/ .
  • Xbox Version:none
  • 360 version:v3.0 (falcon)

Posted 12 October 2007 - 07:18 PM

Like why do you need to water cool with these?

Like im saying if i just put one one of these on the chips, then put the stock heat sink on top, would it work?


Also if this increases the size of the heatsink where are you putting the dvd drive?

#15 2501

2501

    X-S Young Member

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 32 posts

Posted 12 October 2007 - 08:23 PM

i have a 600 watt dual rail PSU to power the watercooling and the peltiers alone. Pics are coming up tonight.

The peltier itself is 3.3mm tall, so that shouldn't affect the height of the heatsink drastically. if it does.. I'll augment my heatsink and dvd drive to fit.


Filthy: I dont really need these to watercool, but they will chill my processor below ambient temperature. Translation--> the peltiers will cool the system below the temperature that the watercooling would do alone.

There are some really good links here about how they work, especially the link posted by Marmaladeboy.

Edited by 2501, 12 October 2007 - 08:23 PM.





0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users