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#1 l11l1VeNoM1l11l

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Posted 27 April 2008 - 02:58 AM

This is going to be annoying, rude, stupid, and totally intolerable - there's your forewarning.

What's up with the lack of decent homebrew X-Box games?

The programs and the emulators are PHENOMENAL, but the only GREAT homebrew games I can think of are ports of other games already available on PC. Doom, Quake, Blob Wars, Xlime - you name it. Incredible.

BUT...I've been playing a LOT of homebrew on PSP lately, and I must say that I am VERY impressed.

Why aren't games still being made for the original X-Box?

I know that the scene is focusing more on the 360 nowadays, but let's finally face it - the 360 is nowhere NEAR as easy to program for as the original box. And almost every person to own an orginal modded X-Box still owns it EVEN if they have a 360 or PS3.

Another thing, I guarantee that as soon as the PS3 is fully ready for homebrew, the scene is going to practically ditch the 360.

I really believe Sony looked at the modders and said "Let's give them something to talk about." So they based the PSP's OS on firmware, and they made it possible to add an extra OS like Linux to the PS3.

Anyway, I played Trigonometry Wars on my PSP the other night and couldn't help but get aggravated at the thought - "Why the hell isn't this on the original X-Box?" And that marble game for 360's arcade.

I know this is going to be replied to with "Why don't you figure out how to do this yourself?" Or "If what you're saying is true, it's pointless to work on the original X-Box when we could just do it for the PS3...or still the 360."

But really, we've got the X-Box still with it's perfectly capable hardware. You can pick up a used box for 50 bucks these days and softmod it - MUCH cheaper than a PSP or PS3...or 360.

I think ALL homebrewing should be focused on the X-Box for years to come. Think about it, there aren't any homebrew games that come close to utilizing all of the X-Box's hardware (with the exception of the port of Quake 3 that can occasionally exceed the system's RAM).

So...sorry this is so scrambled and it seems so angry...but I'm drunk and my girlfriend is currently playing Super Mario Bros. on my X-Box (thanks to X-Port). She asked me the other night if we could play Geometry Wars. I said no...sadly.

I believe that all games for 360's Live Arcade should be either ported to the original OR made from the ground up.

Can I do this myself? Admittedly, no. I'm dumb. But I know that after seeing all of the work that's been put into other projects like XBMC, most could certainly be done rather quickly.

UMK3 for X-Box...at least!?

Hah, sorry for the rant...

your good friend,
l11l1venom1l11l

#2 ressurectionx

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Posted 27 April 2008 - 03:52 AM

I second all that....

You need source and a programmer if you want a game though. I'm just a dumb n00b MAME tinkerer.

I'm suprised that PSP has more ported than the XBox though. PSP blows. Why would I ever want to play a game on a 2" screen when I have my 51" screen to play it on? I hate portable games.

Here's hoping,
~Rx

#3 + T +

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Posted 28 April 2008 - 03:17 AM

Alot of legitimate developers are put off by the fact that the only way to compile software for the Xbox is with an illegal SDK therefore making anything ported or coded from scratch also illegal. Then there's the fact that the Xbox homebrew scene has something of a reputation for being populated mostly by whining idiots who spend more time bugging developers than supporting them.

These are the main reasons why homebrew development on the Xbox has always been limited to just a few dedicated coders compared to other platforms. It could be that if these things change drastically in the future, the Xbox could well get a second lease of life... but don't hold your breath. wink.gif

#4 l11l1VeNoM1l11l

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Posted 28 April 2008 - 04:11 AM

Sorry if I sounded like a whining idiot. I really did. We all do sometimes.

I'm just saying that I'm surprised that something like the PSP is being programmed for more than the X-Box ever has.

Is it easier to program for? Somehow I doubt that, but I guess it's possible.

But really, this is my whiny request that I think a lot of other whiny people will appreciate : X-Box Live Arcade games - Built from scratch for the original X-Box. Why? Because it would make one hell of a cool extension for X-Box Media Center, it would be free, and there would be A LOT more life put back into the box. Even if the programmers refused to do it until they got a good amount of donations...I personally would send donations.

The homebrew programs and games (not including emulators) that I've played on X-Box that were actually worth keeping are as follows:

XBMC (really...the most impressive program I've ever used on any machine)
Quake
Quake 2
Quake 3
Doom Legacy
Nois2sa
Bubble Trouble SX
Aftershock Pool
Blobwars
Deadbabies
Breakout 3d (maybe)
that Star Wars one (maybe)
and Xlime

There may be some I missed...but...

The programs worth keeping on PSP:

XBMC Remote (threw in some irony there)
Quake
The PS1 emulation (perfect!)
PSP Tube
Trigonometry Wars
Doom
PSP Maps
Luigi's World
PSP Dungeons
PSP Radio
Tetriabetes
PSP Halo
Chromium
Metal Blob Solid
PSP iTunes Controller
THE ABILITY TO CONTROL VIRTUALLY ANYTHING VIA INFRARED...

Am I making my point?

The X-Box with all standard PC hardware vs. a PSP.

Maybe the PSP is more fun to program for. I don't know.

I'm done whining. What I'm trying to say is...

THE EMULATORS ARE GOOD - LEAVE THEM ALONE. START MAKING HOMEBREW GAMES AGAIN!!!

Except PCSXBOX. That needs some work. If the 333 mhz PSP can do it all at full speed, the 733 mhz X-Box certainly could too.

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Posted 28 April 2008 - 12:10 PM

QUOTE(l11l1VeNoM1l11l @ Apr 28 2008, 04:47 AM) View Post

Sorry if I sounded like a whining idiot. I really did. We all do sometimes.

Just wanted to clarify that I wasn't implying you were a whining idiot at all, just that this is how the majority of people in this scene are perceived by many of those in other development communities. wink.gif

#6 Clockface

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Posted 28 April 2008 - 04:51 PM

QUOTE(l11l1VeNoM1l11l @ Apr 28 2008, 04:47 AM) View Post

Is it [PSP] easier to program for [than the XBox]? Somehow I doubt that, but I guess it's possible.


I wouldn't have thought so. At least, surely the XBox has the major advantage of being much more familiar, coding-wise, since it's so similar to the PC, which has been around for decades?

QUOTE

The homebrew programs and games (not including emulators) that I've played on X-Box that were actually worth keeping are as follows:

....


Don't forget XDuke, a superb Duke Nukem 3D port, that plays user levels too. My favourite XBox homebrew after XMBC.

And also SCUMM, that plays point and click adventures, although maybe that's classed as an emulator.

QUOTE

Except PCSXBOX. That needs some work.



And Surreal, or a different N64 emulator.

QUOTE


If the 333 mhz PSP can do it [PSX emulation] all at full speed, the 733 mhz X-Box certainly could too.


Not necessarily - if the PSP shares some hardware with the PSX, then the PSP might be able to use that hardware to produce some resource saving "shortcuts". It would depend on the PSP's hardware.






QUOTE(ressurectionx @ Apr 27 2008, 04:28 AM) View Post

I'm suprised that PSP has more ported than the XBox though. PSP blows. Why would I ever want to play a game on a 2" screen when I have my 51" screen to play it on? I hate portable games.

Here's hoping,
~Rx


The PSP is very good, but I agree that it's far more fun to play games on a console and television. The PSP suffers due to it's portable nature, which means that it has to have a small screen, tiny speakers, and limited controls. On the other hand, try carrying an XBox, a mains power supply and a television in your pocket!

Both the PSP and the XBox serve seperate purposes, and the PSP is very nice given it's imposed restrictions. Like you, though, I do wish that more XBox homebrew was forthcoming.


#7 l11l1VeNoM1l11l

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Posted 28 April 2008 - 07:59 PM

QUOTE(Clockface @ Apr 28 2008, 08:27 AM) View Post

I wouldn't have thought so. At least, surely the XBox has the major advantage of being much more familiar, coding-wise, since it's so similar to the PC, which has been around for decades?
Don't forget XDuke, a superb Duke Nukem 3D port, that plays user levels too. My favourite XBox homebrew after XMBC.

And also SCUMM, that plays point and click adventures, although maybe that's classed as an emulator.
And Surreal, or a different N64 emulator.
Not necessarily - if the PSP shares some hardware with the PSX, then the PSP might be able to use that hardware to produce some resource saving "shortcuts". It would depend on the PSP's hardware.
The PSP is very good, but I agree that it's far more fun to play games on a console and television. The PSP suffers due to it's portable nature, which means that it has to have a small screen, tiny speakers, and limited controls. On the other hand, try carrying an XBox, a mains power supply and a television in your pocket!

Both the PSP and the XBox serve seperate purposes, and the PSP is very nice given it's imposed restrictions. Like you, though, I do wish that more XBox homebrew was forthcoming.




I've always wanted to try X-Duke, but I wasn't sure what original Duke Nukem files I needed. I have Duke 3d on disc, so if you tell me where to put what files (like wad files in DOOM for DOOM legacy) I'll be glad to give it a shot. I'd love to have Duke Nukem on my X-Box.

And as for SCUMM, the only thing I'd use it for is Full Throttle, but after trying it in the past and failing miserably every time, I just gave up. Any pointers on how to make Full Throttle work?

Ah, yes, I figured the PSP, like the PS2 and PS3, has a certain processor on board to make it almost fully backward compatible with PS1 games. Still...that's a very small processor. PCSXBOX needs to support ISO/MP3 formatted images at least. Then I'll be happy. And Tomb Raider needs to work.

I agree that the PSP is a great little guy. I bought mine for 100 bucks with GTA and "softmodded" it the next day to play homebrew. I absolutely LOVE playing command and conquer RAR for PS1 when I'm going back and forth from PA to NY. Makes the bus ride FLY by. Ultimate Mortal Kombat Trilogy and DOOM are must-haves when it comes to taking the subway.

Portable is a good thing, and I'm SURE that's why people are working so hard on the PSP. It's really the first portable homebrew machine and it's the ONLY system with homebrew that compares (or even bypasses) the X-Box. Hell, the two systems can even communicate with each other.

I'm not saying this is a bad thing, it's very cool. But the scene is dying, and that's NOT a good sign. It's time to think of something new.

Give up on the 360 - it has hardware based on that of an apple machine. Leave it alone, it doesn't want to be f***ed with. And you've had YEARS to crack something, but still there isn't a single piece of homebrew released.

Stick to what you're comfortable with - the original X-Box. Put the life back in it.

Sirlemonhead is working hard to bring us Alien Vs. Predator: GOLD.

That game only required a 200 mhz processor and 32 mb of RAM. I can only imagine how good it's going to run on the X-Box. Lots of bugs for him to work out, I'm sure, but he'll get it and very soon. The XP version is already finished.

Anyway, we need more people like him. And I will do all of the supporting I possibly can.

Seriously...X-Box LIVE Arcade Games...ported or built from the ground up for the original X-Box.

We need to look more into the Midway Arcade Treasures volumes. They are our key to near-perfect arcade emulation (at least for midway games). That is, if we wanted to take that route.

And MAME does a great job on the X-Box already, but it fails in many areas.

I'll be back with a list of X-Box Live Arcade Games that should be thought about.

#8 VampX

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Posted 29 April 2008 - 03:10 AM

Yep you're right, the xbox could be a wonderful place for true homebrews, (not talking about emu's)
but for some reason it never really happened as much as we'd had liked.
and the xbox scene having a reputation of being whiners and bugging devs? thats a new one to me.
then again i never really venture out of this forum anyway so..

personally i'm still waiting for that in my opinion would be the pinnacle of xbox homebrew gaming,
a port of Shugendo, the homebrew fighting engine that strives
to eventually replace MUGEN as the new "make your own fighting game" engine.

Progress seems a bit slow though, with Sakir previously having to bother with exams and stuff.

So that and AVP are pretty much on the top of my "wish it was on xbox" list.

In retrospect i think the whole XDK thing is probably the main reason that the xbox is not getting
much love from developers, I mean.. they are still coding for the Dreamcast aren't they?

#9 l11l1VeNoM1l11l

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Posted 29 April 2008 - 06:10 AM

QUOTE(VampX @ Apr 28 2008, 06:46 PM) View Post

In retrospect i think the whole XDK thing is probably the main reason that the xbox is not getting
much love from developers, I mean.. they are still coding for the Dreamcast aren't they?



It really must be the XDK thing, but still...playing the games on a modded X-Box is illegal to begin with. I don't understand the point in programming homebrew for X-Box without using the XDK. So what if you can't "officially" release it? That's what Xbins is for, and everyone loves Xbins. I prefer going there for everything before I browse the web for it myself.

As far as the Dreamcast homebrew, I never got into it. I've looked at it and tinkered with it for about a day, but the apps available for the X-Box are very superior.

In fact, the actual utility programs for X-Box are beyond great. dvd2xbox, XBMC, Mimesis, Linksboks (yes, even linksboks) are all beyond what I expected to see on the box by 2008. But it DOES need a new web browser...pathetically. Links is cool, it just baffles me that FIREFOX hasn't been ported over yet.

So...okay...here it goes...

Things that NEED to be on X-Box by the release of the next truly mod-able systems (if the PS3 falls through):

Live games:
Bankshot Billiards 2
Bejeweled (1 or 2, doesn't matter)
Geometry Wars
Marble Blast Ultra (tone it down if necessary)
Texas Hold'em (I'm sick of those World Series games that take up tons of space...just want something simple).
TEMPEST! (DEFINITELY)
Ultimate Mortal Kombat 3 (PLEEEEAAAASE...if this game's ported, I'll leave everyone alone!)

Programs:
New web browser (possibly built into XBMC?) (FireBox? X-Fox?)
External USB Hard drive support (even if it needs to be in FAT-X)
X-Box Maps (google maps alternative...xbmc earth script doesn't count)

Emulation:
Look into PSP emulation...definitely won't run psp games, but maybe get a better PS1 emulator out of it?
Get X-Port to at LEAST get the original Tomb Raider to work on PCSXBOX.


Now I'm being whiny lol.

And to think, this all started with one drunken post.

#10 Clockface

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Posted 30 April 2008 - 01:57 PM

QUOTE(l11l1VeNoM1l11l @ Apr 28 2008, 08:35 PM) View Post

I've always wanted to try X-Duke, but I wasn't sure what original Duke Nukem files I needed. I have Duke 3d on disc, so if you tell me where to put what files (like wad files in DOOM for DOOM legacy) I'll be glad to give it a shot. I'd love to have Duke Nukem on my X-Box.


Just do what it says in the readme.txt file:

"Copy duke3d.grp, defs.con, game.con, user.con to the folder where you installed xDuke"

I think that there are different versions of duke3d.grp, and so maybe not all work with XDuke? My (working) duke3d.grp has a file size of 47.0 MB (49,381,007 bytes) (copied and pasted from the RIGHT CLICK > PROPERTIES display).


QUOTE

And as for SCUMM, the only thing I'd use it for is Full Throttle, but after trying it in the past and failing miserably every time, I just gave up. Any pointers on how to make Full Throttle work?


Sorry, I don't have FT (never even seen it), I'd suggest posting a thread about it in either this forum or the emulators forum (which one deals with SCUMM?).

QUOTE

Stick to what you're comfortable with - the original X-Box. Put the life back in it.


Oh yes - the XBox is great, and really deserves much more attention than it now receives. I've not yet bought a 360/PS3/Wii (no money), but the XBox still pleases me, as do the N46 (best console ever!) and the PS2. I wish Microsoft hadn't commercially killed off the XBox, they should have let it run on, like Sony have done with the PS2.


QUOTE

Sirlemonhead is working hard to bring us Alien Vs. Predator: GOLD.

That game only required a 200 mhz processor and 32 mb of RAM. I can only imagine how good it's going to run on the X-Box. Lots of bugs for him to work out, I'm sure, but he'll get it and very soon. The XP version is already finished.



I'm REALLY looking forward to AvP on the XBox!


QUOTE

We need to look more into the Midway Arcade Treasures volumes. They are our key to near-perfect arcade emulation (at least for midway games). That is, if we wanted to take that route.



I've never tried those, I might see if I can pick them up cheaply (XBox games nowadays can be real bargains).

QUOTE

And MAME does a great job on the X-Box already, but it fails in many areas.


I know, but to be fair I think that it's failings are largely to do with the XBox's limitations, rather than weaknesses in the programming of the MAME ports. If only the XBox had shipped with 128MB of RAM rather than 64MB... Even 128MB wasn't a large amount when the XBox first came out.

#11 l11l1VeNoM1l11l

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Posted 30 April 2008 - 05:02 PM

QUOTE(Clockface @ Apr 30 2008, 05:33 AM) View Post


I know, but to be fair I think that it's failings are largely to do with the XBox's limitations, rather than weaknesses in the programming of the MAME ports. If only the XBox had shipped with 128MB of RAM rather than 64MB... Even 128MB wasn't a large amount when the XBox first came out.



You're absolutely right; it is certainly due to the X-Box's hardware limitations. Speedhacks are beautiful things, but they kind of get the job done halfassed.

As far as games like NBA JAM and Mortal Kombat, they really need to be ported. It's all due to the sound processing, and that's exactly what's been redone in the games on Midway Arcade Treasures.

(Just a little tidbit of info - there is a huge MAT collection available for PC. I don't know if it uses .sr files like the X-Box version, but it might be something worth looking into. Could help get a better understanding of the methods they used to port the games at least.)

And thank you for the tips with X-Duke. When I downloaded it for the first time there was no readme included. I will mess around with it later today. As far as Full Throttle, it was a Lucas Arts point and click puzzle/adventure game...and a great one. If you haven't played it yet, find it somewhere and grab it. The voice acting is phenomenal as well as the animation. Someone made an hour long movie using the "cutscenes" from it. I once walked into my living room of my old apartment to find a friend sitting and watching it. He had never played it before.

"What IS this?" he asked.

"That's a movie someone made using clips from a videogame."

"I thought it might be. It's really good!"

And he watched the rest of the movie by himself.

Anyway, back on subject. Is anyone willing to port XBLA games? I think it would be a big milestone for the community.

#12 biner

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Posted 02 May 2008 - 11:40 PM

id like to way in on this
its really simple
the problem is not illegal sdks, whiners, or more complex programming
the problem lies in the amount of people with modded xboxs and the ease of modding xboxs
the xbox is relatively hard to mod when compared to the psp or dreamcast which causes less demand for homebrew and less incentive to program
therefore xbox homebrew will never come close to that of the psp or dreamcast
its just the way it is and allways will be

#13 mkurza

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Posted 05 May 2008 - 09:43 PM

the 360 came out

imo that drove alot of interest from the xbox away from it

the PSP is still a top notch high end hand held unit and the only competition it has is the nintendo Ds which doesnt really have an interface, thus it doesn't really compete in the modding field, so in a way right now (the psp)it's "one of a kind"

where as the xbox modding scene has been around forever, and its the few die-hards / people who know how much the xbox1 kicks ass that stick around to support it.

gamecube, xbox, and even 360's can be modded which really draws most of the people over to the other consoles leaving the xbox1 behind. My friend modded an xbox some 3 years back and recently I grabbed one and modded it out for the good old memories, and I love it.

imo the lack of homebrew is due to the xbox is now considered "old" in the public retail view and so not many people are looking to put out games on it for the hell of it.

It would be like a programmer being like "I want to create an 8 bit game again that runs on nes"

it's only gonna be the mix of die-hard xbox fanlove and a programmer in 1 that your gonna get your homebrew games from. smile.gif

#14 l11l1VeNoM1l11l

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Posted 06 May 2008 - 06:17 PM

QUOTE(biner @ May 2 2008, 03:16 PM) View Post

id like to way in on this
its really simple
the problem is not illegal sdks, whiners, or more complex programming
the problem lies in the amount of people with modded xboxs and the ease of modding xboxs
the xbox is relatively hard to mod when compared to the psp or dreamcast which causes less demand for homebrew and less incentive to program
therefore xbox homebrew will never come close to that of the psp or dreamcast
its just the way it is and allways will be



Disagreed. Yes, the X-Box is slightly more difficult to mod than a PSP or a Dreamcast (the Dreamcast didn't need to be modded at all, actually). The amount of programs and homebrew games made for the PSP outnumber those on the X-Box. The QUALITY of homebrew games on the PSP is practically the same as those on the X-Box, although I would like to see Tetriabetes and Trigonometry Wars on the box. I don't know squat about the Dreamcast these days, but I know that when I looked into its own homebrew apps about a year and a half ago, I wasn't impressed at all.

Now, the quality of utility programs on the X-Box beats the living poop out of those on anything else. And the best one - XBMC - is still being worked on practically daily.

The fact that the X-Box is more difficult to mod (making about a 5 minute difference when it comes to comparing flashing Dark Alex's PSP firmware to softmodding a box) has little or nothing to do with the amount of apps available for it. If anything, it's because it's old and our favorite programmers are working on cracking the new systems.


My whole point - Eff the new systems for now. Keep the PSP going, sure, but get back the X-Box. There's still a lot of power to be toyed with. As far as the 360, let it go. It's just not going to happen. If it actually does, it will be too late and the 720 or 1080 or whatever will be out by then. And the PS3...let the Playstation guys take care of it. They're doing a better job with IT than anyone's doing with the 360.

#15 biner

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Posted 08 May 2008 - 12:38 AM

5 minute difference??? haha
i modded both my psp and xbox a long time ago so i could be wrong
but i distinctly remember the xbox as being far more time consuming and complicated (getting ahold of 007 and the action replay, making usb to memory card) than the psp
either way harder or not my point still stands
there are simply less who want homebrew on the xbox (and have modded consoles) than the psp




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