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Question About Islam Converts


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#1 damam

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Posted 22 July 2008 - 04:51 PM

I know that muslims who turn away from islam and say convert to atheism or christianity are generally dealt with harshly in the middle east but,

Does anyone know how muslims view the off spring of muslims who turned away from islam?

#2 gronned

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Posted 24 July 2008 - 03:32 PM

I'm not positive, but I have in mind it's death sentence. In Malaysia, I remember you're not allowed to convert in the first place, so you can't really.

Islam is a really disturbing religion, even more so than christianity if you ask me. Sure, there's terrorism in christianity as well, but it's by far outnumbered by Islam today.

Really, atheism is the only peaceful choice. No one has died in the name of atheism. Millions have in the name of various gods.

With science we can explain much more than any religion even comes near. Religions don't even accept the evolution which has been proven over and over again. Don't get confused with the word theory as so many do. It is a fact. They will probably never change it from being a theory, even if it's regarded as a fact.

And anyway, you're an atheist already. You don't believe in Thor or Odin. You don't believe in Zeus, Allah or Vishnu etc etc. They will all punish you greatly for your non-belief in them.

If you really care about your belief, I assume you would dare to debate it as well. If you go to richarddawkins.net there are thousands of people that debate it all the time. The site is definitely atheist in it's core, but if you don't preach and want to debate, they're more than willing to do that with you.

Edited by gronned, 24 July 2008 - 03:41 PM.


#3 nodls

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Posted 24 July 2008 - 04:58 PM

QUOTE(damam @ Jul 22 2008, 11:27 AM) View Post

I know that muslims who turn away from islam and say convert to atheism or christianity are generally dealt with harshly in the middle east but,

Does anyone know how muslims view the off spring of muslims who turned away from islam?


To answer your question if the parents were Muslim and converted to Christianity or any other religion, then that's the parents choice, it has nothing to do with the child/children they aren't automatically labeled as being anything.

#4 gronned

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Posted 24 July 2008 - 06:34 PM

QUOTE(nodls @ Jul 24 2008, 06:34 PM) View Post

To answer your question if the parents were Muslim and converted to Christianity or any other religion, then that's the parents choice, it has nothing to do with the child/children they aren't automatically labeled as being anything.

Say that to Malaysians.

#5 sunnyhundal

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Posted 26 July 2008 - 10:14 AM

QUOTE(gronned @ Jul 24 2008, 04:08 PM) View Post


Really, atheism is the only peaceful choice. No one has died in the name of atheism. Millions have in the name of various gods.




Atheism is not a peaceful choice, i want you to go to middle east or any other religion dominated country and tell them your an atheist, you will get ignored, and shunned for life.

I have seen quite a few express that genocide and war are the fault of world religions. They further assert that atheist's never have caused either of these. However recent history gives us two examples: Stalin and Mao. Both killed millions and both were leaders of an Atheist government.

It just really pisses mad.gif me off that people blame war and genocide on religion.

War and genocide is caused by neither religion nor the lack of it; it's caused by the fundamental human desire of control and power.

Stalin and Mao were horrible dictators who happen to be atheists. The corrupt European mideval Catholic Church happened to be Christian-based. The 9-11 terrorists happened to be Muslims.

None of these suggests anything about the integrity of the religion; it says everything about the people running it.

#6 gronned

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Posted 26 July 2008 - 11:13 AM

Generally I don't care much when debating, but your post pissed me off quite a lot. I did NOT say atheists can't kill anyone, but atheism itself has never killed a single life to my knowledge. Stalin and Mao were atheists, yes, but they didn't commit a single atrocity BECAUSE of their non-belief. Both of them did it because of their belief in communism, NOT atheism.

The world trade center bombers killed 3000 people IN the name of Allah. They flew into the towers BECAUSE of their belief in Allah. Do you think they would fly into the towers if they didn't believe in Allah?

The christian crusaders obviously did it IN the name of Yahweh.

"The corrupt European mideval Catholic Church happened to be Christian-based. The 9-11 terrorists happened to be Muslims."

They happened to be muslims? So you're saying they could JUST AS WELL have been christian? That would be a ludicrous claim.

There may be many different motivations behind atrocities that are not religious, but I have a very hard time believing we'd have so many muslim suicide-bombers unless they were CERTAIN they'd enter heaven, in their case including 72 virgins because their religion PROMOTED them to kill in Jihad. You're extra rewarded if you kill in Jihad.

An enormous amount of humans have died because they believe in their invisible friend they cannot even prove exist. That's an insane fact.

I promote atheism because it's the only thing we can prove to be true. I think it's important people don't believe in lies such as the anti-scientific belief the world is only 6000 years old. They are a problem for science as they force scientists to fight back and waste their time and money on irrelevant issues. They are simply road bumps for the scientific advancement.

#7 Movax

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Posted 26 July 2008 - 01:56 PM

QUOTE(gronned @ Jul 24 2008, 11:08 AM) View Post

evolution which has been proven over and over again. Don't get confused with the word theory as so many do. It is a fact. They will probably never change it from being a theory, even if it's regarded as a fact.



Sorry for off topic post, but..
I don't want to turn this into a big evolution debate, because these things always go nowhere, but please link me to some of these 'facts'. I would love to believe in evolution, but it always seemed so ridiculous to me.

Edited by Movax, 26 July 2008 - 01:57 PM.


#8 sunnyhundal

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Posted 26 July 2008 - 10:48 PM

Look what i am trying to say is you cant put your beliefs and faith into nothing, it just doesn't happen. we already have had a glimpse of Dictators doing this and the end result was MILLIONS of people dead. You cant blame what Mao And Stalin did just on Communism, there was something influencing these people and it wasn't ALL communism. if Stalin was Islamic do you think he would have done this? If Mao was christian do you think he would have done this?.

Now on a side note what type of evolution are you talking about? Macro-evolution the belief where you put a rock on the side of the road and you come back 100 million years later and is evolved into a 100 story building?
rolleyes.gif


#9 lordvader129

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Posted 27 July 2008 - 08:51 PM

QUOTE(sunnyhundal @ Jul 26 2008, 02:24 PM) View Post

if Stalin was Islamic do you think he would have done this? If Mao was christian do you think he would have done this?.

and if hitler was christian....oh wait, he was

QUOTE
Now on a side note what type of evolution are you talking about? Macro-evolution the belief where you put a rock on the side of the road and you come back 100 million years later and is evolved into a 100 story building?

assuming the rock is able to reproduce and being a 100 story building will give its offspring a better chance of surviving to produce offspring of their own, then yes, a rock left on the side of the road may very well evolve into a 100 story building

on the other hand you just might not know the first thing about evolution

#10 gronned

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Posted 27 July 2008 - 10:19 PM

Sunnyhunda1, having been a devout communist myself I can definitely assure you religion wasn't ever an issue for whether I'd like communism to rule or not. Considering Fidel Castro is a devout catholic, you'd realize this to be of no bigger concern for communism. Mao and Stalin did EVERYTHING in the name of communism, no doubt. Hitler was a catholic, and also killed millions of people.

After I've left my communism, I'm an even more moral person. I will never hurt anyone for their belief in a deity, as I think every life is precious(granted. I don't give a shit about many, I still respect their right to live). Religions constantly hurt those who don't share their god. No one can or will forgive me if I make mistakes, therefore my conscience won't allow me to make too big mistakes. The paedophile catholic priests knew they could later ask god for mercy. How could I ever do that? I have to not make the mistakes in the first place. It's so convenient to be religious.

Movax: I'm more than interested in why you think the evolution is ridiculous. Every respectable biologist work under the premise it's true. They don't even have any alternative to work with and they're fully satisfied it's the only theory we'll ever have. I would assume you find it ridiculous due to the extremely common misconception creationists use over and over, despite it's obvious flaws. sunnyhunda said something even more ridiculous about a stone becoming a 100 story building based on that misconception.

The evolution is rock-solid. There's one simple misconception most creationists use. The idea of evolution being a random process. Evolution is absolutely anything but random. If it were random, you'd all be correct. Hoyle's fallacy is probably the origin of this ludicrous misconception. A snippet from the wiki on Hoyle's fallacy - "Hoyle's formulation concerns the probability that a protein molecule could achieve a functional sequence of amino acids by chance alone. He calculates this as being of approximately the same order of magnitude as the probability that a hurricane could sweep through a junkyard and randomly assemble a Boeing 747."

If you believe this to be how the evolution works, then you're obviously not in the least interested in learning about it as Natural selection is a fundamental and crucial aspect of it. There's nothing random about it at all. The mutations however (I think) are more or less random. If any random mutation doesn't work, it's likely to fall under the knife of Natural selection, which the majority of mutations do. If the mutations are working in the environment, it's likely to survive (I may have been wrong to some extent in the last parts here, but I think it explains it fairly well).

So yes, the evolution would be ridiculous if it was random, but that's a simple and common misconception fabricated by creationists to undermine it. Here's a page that explains some misconceptions. http://www.talkorigi...onceptions.html

Please Movax, if you would love to believe(accept reality, really) in the evolution, as you said, then please read about it, as there's absolutely nothing ridiculous about it. I say accept the evolution in the sense that you don't believe it's a chair you're sitting on, you know it is and therefore accept it. Belief is unnecessary. There are no "missing links" that can undermine it either. Please keep asking, as I find it important people don't believe in ridiculous ideas like the earth being only 6000 years old, when it's really 4.5 billion years old.

#11 Movax

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Posted 28 July 2008 - 04:41 AM

^Thank you for your reply, yet you fail, and always will, at providing any evidence. Circumstantial evidence is not proof.
Evolution is only accepted because it is the only option when a creator is eliminated.

I am not religious. I am open minded and will accept any belief system if the facts are shown to me. Prove to me that Mohammad was a true profit and I will follow Islam. Prove to me that Jesus died for our salvation, and I will become a devote Christian. Prove to me that we grew out of random mutations of DNA strands through 'natural selection' and I will believe that.

Honestly, I have researched evolution, and there is no solid evidence. Believing in a creator, whether good or evil, one, or many...whatever... makes much more logical sense to me, as socially unacceptable as it may be to the scientifically elite.



#12 gronned

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Posted 28 July 2008 - 12:54 PM

"Honestly, I have researched evolution, and there is no solid evidence. Believing in a creator, whether good or evil, one, or many...whatever... makes much more logical sense to me, as socially unacceptable as it may be to the scientifically elite."

I will response to your other parts of the post, but first I'd like to know what your real stance is. You're not religious, but believing in a creator makes much more sense than the evolution? You are either a theist or deist with your own set of beliefs in your deity, or you're a non-believer who just think it would be more logical with a deity IF one is right. First off, there are religious people who choose to accept the evolution by saying god started it instead.

There's nothing illogical about the evolution in any sense. The biologists predict what fossils they will for the evolution to be true - and they always do. Such a coincidence. If you so confidently say it doesn't make sense, then please tell me what aspect of it doesn't?
I believe you've read creationists own false interpretation of it.

Even if the evolution was wrong, which it cannot possibly be, then why would a deity be the logical alternative? There's nothing logical about any deity at all. If a "god" created the universe, then you're left with an even harder question to answer, who, or what created god? A god can only be based on faith, whereas evolution is solely based on evidence. How could it be more logical to believe a god created everything? It doesn't make any sense at all.

#13 Movax

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Posted 28 July 2008 - 05:31 PM

QUOTE(gronned @ Jul 28 2008, 08:30 AM) View Post

I will response to your other parts of the post, but first I'd like to know what your real stance is.


No mystery there. I don't pretend that I know anything. I don't. And no one can because no one was there to tell us what happened when the universe started, or when humans first appeared. I find evolution more difficult to believe in than a creator. I don't have enough faith to just decide it must be fact.


QUOTE

Even if the evolution was wrong, which it cannot possibly be, then why would a deity be the logical alternative?


Is there another alternative? We came from apes, or we came from God, or...?

Anyway, this is my last post on this topic because no one can prove their side of the argument. It is an endless debate. I was just probing to see if there was some new evidence or some new factual basis for evolution. Your continued stance that it is a fact does not make it so. If I state it is a fact that I can fly by flapping my arms does it make it true?




#14 lordvader129

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Posted 28 July 2008 - 06:03 PM

QUOTE(Movax @ Jul 28 2008, 09:07 AM) View Post

Is there another alternative? We came from apes, or we came from God, or...?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raelian

you could also subscribe to a steady-state theory, we've always been here, and always will be, no beginning, no end (to me this seems the most logical when you dismiss sience)

Edited by lordvader129, 28 July 2008 - 06:04 PM.


#15 gronned

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Posted 01 August 2008 - 03:44 PM

Movax: It is a fact. You just don't want to accept it as one, huge difference. Your arguments are silly, and it's evident you haven't read up on it at all. You could change your view on life if you put two hours in learning about the basics of the evolution and the massive amount of evidence for it. But you won't, because you've already decided it's impossible to know.

It would be true that you can fly if you can prove it, yes. Otherwise no. Pretty simple, just like the evolution.

I will never agree with you that it's an endless debate. Reason will conquer stupidity in the end. Whether there exists a god or not, isn't a 50/50-question. He either does or he doesn't, but rational arguments makes his percentages incredibly slim.

True, no one was there when the big bang happened, but you do believe the earth is round without being able to see it on your own. You do believe there will be a solar eclipse 23rd September 2090 over UK, simply because the astronomers say so. There's not a doubt in our minds it'll happen, yet it's over 80 years to go. The evolution is true because the evidence is there, and they find transitional fossils that were expected from the beginning. Everything fits.

The evolution in itself doesn't rule out a god btw - sane people do.






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