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#16 chorizo1

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Posted 23 October 2008 - 09:56 AM

QUOTE(lostboyz @ Oct 23 2008, 02:52 AM) View Post

im not for either side really, but how can you say that obama isnt socialist?



O.k. lets just say for the sake of arguement that what the republicans are spinning is true.

It's a socialist IDEA, It doesn't make him a Socialist NOR does it mean as that he would implement all aspects of socialism in this country. So why keep hammering the word "socialist" around? same as why they like to hammer the word "terrorist" around, and soon they'll bring out the "racist" charge too i bet. Hell they might even call him a Nazi too.

This is ALL Republican Spin:

What these republican talking heads on T.V. want is for those "Joe Six Packs (now plumbers)" everywhere to believe Obama is some sort of secret socialist, secret terrorist, unamerican, closet racist, closet muslim, crazy person that will ruin America. Give Me a fuckin break.

I know what your republican handbooks says:

When someone calls you out on spreading FEAR and HATE, simply claim that you are pointing out certain facts, and that it is crazy people who are coming to these conclusions.

I just said "Obama associated with a terrorist." It's up to them to find out that it wasn't a Muslim terrorist with dynamite strapped to his chest who would fly a plane into a building. I simply said that "other people claim that he is a Muslim" or that i heard "he wasn't born in the U.S." I never told them it was true (never tell them it's false either). I said that his plan "sounded like socialism", I never said he was a socialist.

S-P-I-N



Again, I'm just a simple Poor Unamerican Socialist terrorist supporter, so what do I know........










#17 limbfilter

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Posted 23 October 2008 - 10:15 AM

QUOTE(chorizo1 @ Oct 23 2008, 03:30 AM) View Post

Well I'm just a simple Poor Unamerican Socialist terrorist supporter, but I think taking one quote and drawing a conclusion this EPIC in scope is just plain stupid.

I won't try to explain it you as I know you already believe this to be fact, and arguing about this won't change anyone's mind (never my intention anyway). Most McCain supporters have already embraced his bullshit scare tactics, and his partys push for this division of the american people into:

1) American (anyone that supports us)

2) UnAmerican (we're not saying Obama supporters......really we're not wink.gif )

Ohhh... Palin just winked at me..........oooohhhh.......
So drink your kool aid and pop in your BOSTON Record: "don't stop believing ....." (plays air guitar)

I'm not just taking his one quote...His whole "tax cut" is based around it. He says he won't increase middle class taxes, until they are scheduled to go back up in 2010 (which he wisely hasn't mentioned)....So if taxes are being raised on only the rich, then it's that money that's going to fund all of his "tax credits" for the poor. That IS spreading the wealth around. And I never said that he supported terrorists...I'm sure that's what some think, but you still don't see what my, and many others, real problem with his ayers connection. I wouldn't hire someone who was friends with a drug dealer to help get rid of drugs...
Maybe saying socialist is "epic" but a simple action doesn't need to be epic to have an epic result...ie social security.....

As far as McCain campaign scare tactics.....I can honestly say that I've never once seen any of his ads...nor have I seen Obama's....I've never paid any attention to political ads even when I watched tv. I don't think I've even been to either site...
I have watched the debates...Heard their speeches...That's how I decided not to vote for Obama...
I myself am not a big palin fan...And McCain is far from my first pick....And I really haven't decided who to vote for honestly....Though I know for who I won't vote.

Ah...Now to your final comment....I see...So because I won't vote for Obama, I'm automatically a racist redneck hillbilly....WTF? You are basing that entire assumption on the fact that I'm not voting for Obama? Way to go...Calling me a "McCarthy" or even an idiot is fair game, though the latter is quite rude, but it's ok because that's your opinion of my opinion. Honestly it would be the same if I said "Drink your grape soda and pick up your welfare check".....totally out of line. And honestly, it ruins any credibility I had given you...

#18 chorizo1

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Posted 23 October 2008 - 11:56 AM

QUOTE(limbfilter @ Oct 23 2008, 04:51 AM) View Post

Ah...Now to your final comment....I see...So because I won't vote for Obama, I'm automatically a racist redneck hillbilly....WTF?



Wow. How the hell did you reach that conclusion. I was talking about Most McCain supporters believing and excusing these type of tactics:

1) the Palin comment was about the Republicans drooling over Palin (a joke really)

2) the kool aid means that people take everything one side gives them as fact

3) Boston has a song that has the lyrics: Don't stop believing in them. refers to #2

4) you just proved my point that if you just say things and don't explain them some people will draw their own conclusions from them, However wrong they may be. (Read my other post)

Note: you've been arguing with me all this time and you haven't even seen any of the attack ads, or tactics being used? I haven't been trying to convince you to vote for Obama, just to open other peoples eyes to shitty sleazy political tactics, that are gonna do more harm than good. That's All.

Oh, also I wasn't calling you stupid, I was merely stating that it is stupid to take one comment and draw such a huge conclusion from it. (again point #4)


Oh and I don't drink grape soda, and I HAVE a job.

#19 limbfilter

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Posted 23 October 2008 - 12:41 PM

QUOTE(chorizo1 @ Oct 23 2008, 07:32 AM) View Post

1) the Palin comment was about the Republicans drooling over Palin (a joke really)

2) the kool aid means that people take everything one side gives them as fact

3) Boston has a song that has the lyrics: Don't stop believing in them. refers to #2

4) you just proved my point that if you just say things and don't explain them some people will draw their own conclusions from them, However wrong they may be. (Read my other post)

2) Yeah....never heard that one before...

3)...Yeah...don't listen to boston

4) I don't think I was ever saying that wasn't happening...So I guess we've been arguing incorrectly...lol...I've just been trying to argue the points...There's no doubt that each side has used scare tactics...But all the scare tactic that Obama really needs is McCain=Bush...
I've just been tying to get across that you don't have to believe these wild exaggerations, and still find fault with Obama though what he says, and with whom he spends his time. Yes, I've seen people spin these things both ways...But I'm only going to really discuss fact. I do my best to take all the facts and research before I make my opinion.
And I'm not trying to talk anyone out of voting for Obama...That would be quite naive....But I am curious if people have paid attention to what he says.
And granted....I misunderstood your statement....But there's only one way to interpret "spread the wealth". I'm also trying to get you to understand that the "socialism" comment is not based just on that one statement.....it's based on his plan. His comment correctly describes what he wants to do.

#20 lostboyz

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Posted 23 October 2008 - 05:14 PM

chorizo1,

show me one stand point he has that isnt liberal borderline socialist. I never meant to say he is a full blown socialist.

Even if he only does a couple things of what he wants to do, that is still a big step towards socialism. We haven't taken a step back in many many years.

Frankly you are coming off just as brainwashed as limbfilter. You must watch tv, and limb must listen to conservative radio because its quite ridiculous.

Our government can not run shit. I dont see why everyone can over look that when they want the government to run more of our daily lives. We need to spark new trade and make this country some more profit to pay off debt. More regulation on an already regulated market slows it down. We need the opposite. If you tax the people that make the most money to make it fair you reduce their motivation to go out and make it. They could just stop making money and retire. Then what?

when the word fair gets used we are all in trouble. socialism is a wonderful idea if everyone were tolerant and uncorruptable. We have congressman that get too much money from outside sources (for campaigns of course) and people in the system that will unfairly take advantage to every handout there is.

I will put the offer out to anyone, if you want to pay my taxes for the next 4 years I will gladly vote for obama. Show your true support.

#21 limbfilter

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Posted 23 October 2008 - 09:18 PM

QUOTE(lostboyz @ Oct 23 2008, 12:50 PM) View Post

Frankly you are coming off just as brainwashed as limbfilter. You must watch tv, and limb must listen to conservative radio because its quite ridiculous.

Ouch...Brainwashed?
Look, I never said socialism was evil....But it has been tried....And it has failed....

#22 lostboyz

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Posted 23 October 2008 - 09:21 PM

sorry, even though I agree with you neither of you can see the other side. When two people have differing opinions and can only make fun of each other, you have a pissing match not an arguement

#23 Reaper527

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Posted 23 October 2008 - 09:22 PM

QUOTE(limbfilter @ Oct 23 2008, 04:54 PM) View Post

Look, I never said socialism was evil....But it has been tried....And it has failed....


agreed. socialism pulls everyone down to the lowest common denominator. it destroys any reason for people to work hard, as they can't improve their life by doing so.

earlier today, someone was telling me a story about how some school system wants to change their grading structure so that the lowest possible grade was a 50. this means that if you get EVERY question on a test wrong, you still get a 50 for a grade. if people want to make things better, they will stop trying to baby everyone and worry about hurting feelings. natural competition improves things.

#24 chorizo1

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Posted 23 October 2008 - 10:16 PM

QUOTE(lostboyz @ Oct 23 2008, 11:50 AM) View Post

If you tax the people that make the most money to make it fair you reduce their motivation to go out and make it. They could just stop making money and retire. Then what?


What? blink.gif

Obama wants to get rid of the Bush tax cuts to the "Rich" and "give" that money to the middleclass in order to pump more money, business into the economy

McCain wants to give more of a tax breaks to the "rich" in this case Big Business in order for them to grow to stimulate the economy.

One relies on the "rich" doing the right thing in a recession, the other gives relief to those in the middleclass that are struggling to get things going. I think I'll take my chances with the middleclass.

NOTE: McCain didn't support the same Bush tax cuts that Obama wants to get rid of, when they were first introduced. McCain 2000, I liked that guy.


Well I'm just a simple Brainwashed Poor Unamerican Socialist terrorist supporter, and that's what i think.

Edited by chorizo1, 23 October 2008 - 10:19 PM.


#25 lordvader129

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Posted 23 October 2008 - 10:19 PM

QUOTE(chorizo1 @ Oct 23 2008, 01:32 AM) View Post

S-P-I-N
Again, I'm just a simple Poor Unamerican Socialist terrorist supporter, so what do I know........

i hear those words from liberals sarcastically describing themselves a hell of a lot more i hear them from any conservative

so whos doing the spinning here?

#26 lostboyz

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Posted 23 October 2008 - 10:38 PM

QUOTE(chorizo1 @ Oct 23 2008, 04:52 PM) View Post

What? blink.gif

Obama wants to get rid of the Bush tax cuts to the "Rich" and "give" that money to the middleclass in order to pump more money, business into the economy

McCain wants to give more of a tax breaks to the "rich" in this case Big Business in order for them to grow to stimulate the economy.

One relies on the "rich" doing the right thing in a recession, the other gives relief to those in the middleclass that are struggling to get things going. I think I'll take my chances with the middleclass.

NOTE: McCain didn't support the same Bush tax cuts that Obama wants to get rid of, when they were first introduced. McCain 2000, I liked that guy.
Well I'm just a simple Brainwashed Poor Unamerican Socialist terrorist supporter, and that's what i think.


Yes what I wrote was worded poorly

Taxing the rich and giving it to the middle class does not motivate the middle class to work harder, and it de motivates the rich to keep making money if they dont get to see it. Its what made Reagan a conservative.

I dont understand how obama can be against big business (the companies that make the US money) and be for introducing new taxes and increasing minimum wage that rape small business.

A free market is the only thing that creates competition to strive for greatness. With socialism the american dream becomes working hard to support the millions on welfare.

What is the last thing the government has done well, that you would trust them with more power?

#27 Reaper527

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Posted 23 October 2008 - 10:52 PM

QUOTE(chorizo1 @ Oct 23 2008, 05:52 PM) View Post


NOTE: McCain didn't support the same Bush tax cuts that Obama wants to get rid of, when they were first introduced. McCain 2000, I liked that guy.



he actually was against that bill BECAUSE it cut taxes but not spending. he has his own proposal that he was trying to push through as an alternative.

for someone who likes to cry spin, that is what you are doing there by saying he was against cutting taxes without stating why he was against the bush plan.

#28 limbfilter

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Posted 23 October 2008 - 11:12 PM

QUOTE(lostboyz @ Oct 23 2008, 04:57 PM) View Post

sorry, even though I agree with you neither of you can see the other side. When two people have differing opinions and can only make fun of each other, you have a pissing match not an arguement

Not sure if you've seen the whole argument with chorizo1 and I.....But all I've ever done is try to make him see the other side.....See how someone can have problems with Obama and not believe accusations that Obama is a racist terrorist.....Because I don't.
In fact, all I've ever asked is for people to show me their opinion, or show me where I'm wrong. That's more indicative of trying to see where other people are coming from...

As for TV and talk radio, I feel both are fine as long as you don't take everything you hear as gospel and use your brain. Much like anything else. If you listen to TV, (save for fox news....but who watches that garbage anyway?) You may end up believing that Obama is the messiah. Alternatively, if you listen to talk radio you could end up thinking Obama is a racist terrorist.
Now neither is actually coming out and saying these things.....but that is what a lot of people take away from them.

The most glaring example, was the last presidential election...Talk radio was all in a huff because of a comment he had made towards president bush. the comment was, “You know, education, if you make the most of it, if you study hard and you do your homework, and you make an effort to be smart, uh, you, you can do well. If you don’t, you get stuck in Iraq.”
People were in a huff because to some it sounds like a jab at our troops....When I was able to see from the beginning that it was a jab at Bush...

Anyway, to summarize, if I thought that chorizo1 was a brain washed liberal, I wouldn't bother arguing with him.

QUOTE(lostboyz @ Oct 23 2008, 06:14 PM) View Post

What is the last thing the government has done well, that you would trust them with more power?

Hence a large part of my being a libertarian.

@Reaper527
Yeah...It's hard to single out someone's voting style because of all the things attached to proposals....A lot of the time some things attached will have nothing to do with the main proposal....To really look at someone's voting you would have to review everything in detail....So don't ever buy into what either party says about the other's voting. It's all bunk.

Edited by limbfilter, 23 October 2008 - 11:20 PM.


#29 chorizo1

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Posted 23 October 2008 - 11:17 PM

QUOTE(Reaper527 @ Oct 23 2008, 05:28 PM) View Post

he actually was against that bill BECAUSE it cut taxes but not spending. he has his own proposal that he was trying to push through as an alternative.

for someone who likes to cry spin, that is what you are doing there by saying he was against cutting taxes without stating why he was against the bush plan.


He didn't like the fact that the rich were gonna get a tax cut, and the middleclass etc. were not. I agree with him wanting to save money from the surplus. As i have said before , I would have voted for McCain in 2000.

McCain 2000

QUOTE
That is why tax relief should be targeted to middle-income Americans. The more fortunate among us have less concern about debt. It is the parents struggling to make ends meet who are most in need of tax relief.


I don't think mcCains plan is wrong, it might work. I just think Obamas might have a better chance. I don;t believe the spin, that he is giving the rich a tax break, just because they are his buddies, contributors etc. I see that it is part of a strategy, i just find it funny that it echoes the one we already tried.

Edited by chorizo1, 23 October 2008 - 11:28 PM.


#30 lostboyz

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Posted 24 October 2008 - 12:55 AM

limbfilter, I agree Obama has a lot of problems, no politician dosent.

As far as spin? The majority of people watch tv instead of radio, and other than fox news (which has almost no credibility anymore) is extremely liberal. I have seen liberal shows come up with more spin against obama to make all conservatives look like this joe sixpack character.

At my university, I would say the majority of us are conservative (engineering school, you know the ones that actually solve problems) and I don't know anyone who dosen't like obama because he is black, "muslim", "terrorist", his pastor, or any of that crap. We don't like him because he is a few steps more liberal than McCain and a few steps from a socialist.

The government has not done a good thing for us recently, again, how can you say you want them to run more of your life. Education, FDA, bailout, etc. etc.

Life shouldnt be fair, if you want to be better than your neighbor or the guy that sits next to you at work, then you should push yourself. Not hope that you get a tax cut that balances everything out. Which would make you feel better?




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