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"there Must Be Some Way To Read The Key......"


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#1 DrexeL_UK

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Posted 18 November 2009 - 04:21 PM

OK, no matter how many times I (and others) explain this, the same dipsh1t statement keeps cropping up in this forum since the release of the 'undumpable' lite-on drives:

QUOTE
The key must be able to be read somehow, because the console has to verify that the drive has the correct key...


THIS STATEMENT IS COMLETELY FALSE.

THE CONSOLE NEVER HAS TO READ, VERIFY, DUMP OR LOOK AT THE KEY ON THE DRIVE.

The DVD key encryption system works like this analogy:

Imagine a box. This box can be locked shut with a padlock, a padlock which has two identical keys. I have one of the keys, my buddy on the other side of the world has the other key. Imagine I put an item in the box, lock the padlock with my key, then send the box to my buddy.

When my buddy gets the box he is able to open it and get the item, because he has a matching key that is able to open the lock. HE DOESN'T NEED MY KEY BECAUSE HE ALREADY HAS ONE.

The xbox 360 works in exactly the same way. The game data is read from the disc and encrypted using the key on the DVD drive, the 360 is able to decrypt the data because it has a matching key. IT DOESN'T NEED TO SEE THE KEY ON THE DRIVE BECAUSE IT ALREADY HAS IT'S OWN MATCHING KEY, AND IS THEREFORE ABLE TO DECRYPT THE DATA BEING READ FROM THE DISC.

Hopefully this will help stop the same dumb fucking statement appearing in pretty much every thread.

Edited by DrexeL_UK, 18 November 2009 - 04:29 PM.


#2 Takashi

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Posted 18 November 2009 - 04:41 PM

A bit vulgar, but i like it! laugh.gif

The key is contained in the mobo, and again in the drive, never transmitted!

Edited by Takashi, 18 November 2009 - 04:42 PM.


#3 jack_herer

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Posted 18 November 2009 - 04:51 PM


you're wrong. that satement is not -completely- false.

console doesn't verify the key, but the SESSION KEY generated by the drive. This session key is random data arrived from CPU and encrypted by drive fw. So CPU ASK AND VERIFY THIS SESSION KEY when console starts. I bet it is not impossible reverse engeenering this encrypting algorithm and calculate (not dump or read) the key.

#4 DrexeL_UK

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Posted 18 November 2009 - 04:57 PM

QUOTE(jack_herer @ Nov 18 2009, 03:51 PM) View Post

you're wrong. that satement is not -completely- false.

console doesn't verify the key, but the SESSION KEY generated by the drive. This session key is random data arrived from CPU and encrypted by drive fw. So CPU ASK AND VERIFY THIS SESSION KEY when console starts. I bet it is not impossible reverse engeenering this encrypting algorithm and calculate (not dump or read) the key.


No, I'm not wrong beacuse I was talking solely about the DVD drive key, the key that is inserted into ixtreme when we flash drives. This is what I was refering to when people keep saying 'there must be a way to dump the drive key'.

I may not be 100% correct in my understanding of the way the key works, but I was merely trying to tell people why the DVD key is not read by the console in as simple a way as possible, and hopefully this will help them to understand that you can't simply assume the key can be read somehow.

Edited by DrexeL_UK, 18 November 2009 - 05:12 PM.


#5 jack_herer

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Posted 18 November 2009 - 05:02 PM


eheh i'm joking as that statemet is not completely false, but a little incorrect. tongue.gif

it should be "there must be some way to CALCULATE the key" wink.gif

#6 DrexeL_UK

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Posted 18 November 2009 - 05:31 PM

Fair enough biggrin.gif

Basically, the gist of what I was saying is this: The DVD key cannot and is not read directly by the console smile.gif

#7 Ranger72

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Posted 18 November 2009 - 06:13 PM

QUOTE(jack_herer @ Nov 18 2009, 11:02 AM) View Post



it should be "there must be some way to CALCULATE the key" wink.gif


It has been calculated that to brute force calculate a proper drive key for your console would take something like 100 thousand years or more with the most powerful computers available today.

That is to just calculate the key. It would probably take a few billion extra years to take the time to flash and verify every one of those key until you find the one you need.


#8 jack_herer

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Posted 18 November 2009 - 06:19 PM

this is not true, as it is a 16 bit key, not a 256 bit. and verifing the key is not so hard and doesn't need to flash, because YOU give the fw the data to encrypt,
fw encrypt this data, than you can verify the key bruteforcing this data as you sent the "unencrypted data"

Edited by jack_herer, 18 November 2009 - 06:36 PM.


#9 Ranger72

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Posted 18 November 2009 - 07:25 PM

QUOTE(jack_herer @ Nov 18 2009, 12:19 PM) View Post

this is not true, as it is a 16 bit key, not a 256 bit. and verifing the key is not so hard and doesn't need to flash, because YOU give the fw the data to encrypt,
fw encrypt this data, than you can verify the key bruteforcing this data as you sent the "unencrypted data"



The key i something like this (1C880FA8361FF6CDD738B3578E2FA07C) It could be every variation between 0 to 9 and a to z. I t has to be in exact order.

I would like to see you build a supper computer and algorithm to achieve this withing your lifetime or any of your great grandchildren lifetime.

How else will you verify the key is correct without testing it first?

I just like how newbies come here and assume they know what they are talking about and just end up making an ass out of themselves instead.

Edited by Ranger72, 18 November 2009 - 07:25 PM.


#10 garyopa

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Posted 18 November 2009 - 07:53 PM

QUOTE(jack_herer @ Nov 18 2009, 12:19 PM) View Post

this is not true, as it is a 16 bit key, not a 256 bit. and verifing the key is not so hard and doesn't need to flash, because YOU give the fw the data to encrypt,
fw encrypt this data, than you can verify the key bruteforcing this data as you sent the "unencrypted data"


All wrong. -- The DVD KEY is 16byte key, all bytes have 8 bits, so that is 128bit key.

Here is a section on 128bit keys taken from the Wikipedia on "Brute Force Attack":

QUOTE

There is a physical argument that a 128-bit symmetric key is secure against brute force attack. The so-called Von Neumann-Landauer Limit implied by the laws of physics sets a lower limit on the energy required to perform a computation of ln(2)kT per bit erased in a computation, where T is the temperature of the computing device in kelvins, k is the Boltzmann constant, and the natural logarithm of 2 is about 0.693. No irreversible computing device can use less energy than this, even in principle.[2]

Thus, in order to simply flip through the possible values for a 128-bit symmetric key (ignoring doing the actual computing to check it) would require 2128 − 1 bit flips. If we assume that the calculation occurs near room temperature (~300 K) we can apply the Von Neumann-Landauer Limit to estimate the energy required as ~1018 joules, which is equivalent to consuming 30 gigawatts of power for one year (30◊109 W◊365◊24◊3600 s = 9.46◊1017 J). The full actual computationóchecking each key to see if you have found a solutionówould consume many times this amount.

However, this argument assumes that the register values are changed using conventional set and clear operations which inevitably generate entropy. It has been shown that computational hardware can be designed not to encounter this theoretical obstruction (see reversible computing), though no such computers are known to have been constructed.

The amount of time required to break a 128-bit key is also daunting. Each of the 2128 (340,282,366,920,938,463,463,374,607,431,768,211,456) possibilities must be checked. A device that could check a billion billion keys (1018) per second would still require about 1013 years to exhaust the key space. This is a thousand times longer than the age of the universe, which is about 13,000,000,000 (1.3◊1010) years.


So I come back check back with you in 13 billion years, too see if you have found your DVD key by then.

#11 a360

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Posted 18 November 2009 - 08:51 PM

QUOTE(garyopa @ Nov 18 2009, 07:53 PM) View Post

Here is a section on 128bit keys taken from the Wikipedia on "Brute Force Attack":
So I come back check back with you in 13 billion years, too see if you have found your DVD key by then.

So how does the console do all that? Can't C4Eva do something like that?

Edited by a360, 18 November 2009 - 08:52 PM.


#12 kaneda_77

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Posted 18 November 2009 - 08:54 PM

Very informative.

Just a question:
Say you have a disc with some known values on it. Could you send data through with known information(i.e. 123456) through the 360's encryption and then derive the encryption key from that?

Not sure if that's the best of terms for it or not.

#13 Ranger72

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Posted 18 November 2009 - 08:59 PM

QUOTE(a360 @ Nov 18 2009, 02:51 PM) View Post

So how does the console do all that? Can't C4Eva do something like that?



No. We just read the correct key that is stored on the dvd drive. But with the new drives all known security holes are patched that we would normally use to read the drive key from the drive.

#14 a360

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Posted 18 November 2009 - 09:05 PM

QUOTE(a360 @ Nov 18 2009, 08:51 PM) View Post

So how does the console do all that? Can't C4Eva do something like that?


Sorry guys ! I couldn't resist jester.gif

#15 alan_poh

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Posted 18 November 2009 - 09:19 PM

QUOTE(Ranger72 @ Nov 18 2009, 09:59 PM) View Post

No. We just read the correct key that is stored on the dvd drive. But with the new drives all known security holes are patched that we would normally use to read the drive key from the drive.


is possible sometime in the future that there will bee a way to read the key? possibly from the motherboard? since these new dvd drives are now fully patched...




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