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Will New 360 Developments Affect Xbox 1 Emus?


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#1 westcoastloc

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Posted 15 December 2009 - 08:16 AM

I am very intrigued by the new freeboot/xbreboot/jtag stuff on the 360. When I see that they already have mame emus and stuff will xbox 1 emu people move to the 360? Will it truly unlock way more modern emus and such with more ram and cpu power? Will there be ps2 emus and ones not possible on the original xbox?

#2 ressurectionx

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Posted 15 December 2009 - 08:41 AM

I surely hope so...


We're building the Xtras with the future in mind. cool.gif

#3 Keith1981

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Posted 15 December 2009 - 03:29 PM

It Really feels that way,

I mean... I read the 360 is something like 80 Times more powerful then the Xbox1.

So if that any bit true we should be able to Emu. Saturn-PS2-3DO-CDi-DS-PSP-Gamecube-Wii..... list go's on.
I hope they can Crack the 360 wide open Just like the Xbox 1 has been for so many years now.

Edited by Keith1981, 15 December 2009 - 03:31 PM.


#4 Bender_Unit_1

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Posted 15 December 2009 - 03:48 PM

I wouldn't say it would be totally dead, maybe an update here and there (xbmc, skins) but it would trickle down if the 360 got on the same playing field.
And this would be a fantastic thing. The 360 is much more powerful than the xbox1, which would benefit emulation highly. More ram to properly store N64 games and run the emulators would be indispensable. With the speed of the 360, it could handle hi-res packs I'm sure. The media players would be full rate on even mkv! Homebrew would have many more possibilities! Even with what exists; Quake 3 at full speed and high resolution! And yes, we'd have possibility of Saturn emulation and more.

I pray what's currently ported to xbox1 makes its way to the 360. It would be a dream come true. With all the xtras developed, wonderful ports done (source code provided in many cases), skins people have poured their time into, there is so much to offer the newer console. And with the new found power of the 360, they could be even better. I just hope to see it happen.

- Bender


#5 Bomb Bloke

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Posted 15 December 2009 - 04:33 PM

A lot of stuff will need to be re-written, so it won't happen overnight (the old XDK won't be much use for 360 development), but I can't imagine all the emu projects here will die with the X-Box. And the X-Box is on the way out - it's getting very hard to find new systems, and in a few years even second hand consoles will probably be getting scarce.

But I guess it comes down to how many emu coders get 360s.

Note that the official XBMC devs have no interest in coding for the 360, as they deem it easier/cheaper to just get a dedicated PC or something (most of them already have - I assume it's been noticed here that the original X-Box version is somewhat behind in features). Again, depends on how many coders get 360s.

I mean, say everyone decides to take their code back to, say, Windows or Linux. Think about it. Xtras on PC, with the processing power of whatever computer you have today - or even tomorrow! No need to worry about all the legality issues mixed up with the XDK and it's like! Sure, there's driver issues to put up with, but the idea of treating a PC the way we treat the X-Box now has it's appeal (keeping in mind the X-Box is basically a very cheap PC with next to no upgrade potential).

QUOTE(Bender_Unit_1 @ Dec 15 2009, 10:48 PM) View Post
The media players would be full rate on even mkv!

The original system is already fully capable of dealing with the MKV container! smile.gif

The h.264-type codecs people like to use with it, not so much... sad.gif

QUOTE(Bender_Unit_1 @ Dec 15 2009, 10:48 PM) View Post
Quake 3 at full speed and high resolution!

Granted I haven't tried it in HD, but I was amazed at how fast the X-Box port of Q3 already runs... It was kinda like playing Doom on a +1ghz processor...

#6 edwardar

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Posted 15 December 2009 - 08:49 PM

I went round to my brothers last week to play Forza 3 - I'd forgotten how loud the xbox 360 is. Plus it consumes much more power than the xbox 1. I think for more recent systems, the 360 will be excellent, but it's overkill for anything 16-bit, 8-bit.

A monumental amount of work went into producing all those great xbox emulators... it sort of depends whether or not the 360 gets an xport!!

#7 Bender_Unit_1

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Posted 16 December 2009 - 02:43 AM

Have you actually played it Q3? Quake 3 has an awful frame rate. It's just barely playable. I had to make the textures look like bald colors to be decent. The resolution is merely at 800x600 (or 1024x768 I forget). But it's still pretty sad. Granted I'm amazed it runs reasonably well on something with such low specs, but it's not impressive as you think. Like Doom from.. what? '95 on a 1GHz processor as a comparison? Seriously?

And I highly disagree with the speed of mkv also. I find them choppy as hell. Even just 1GB, 40minute episodes of shows. And a 1.35ish GB avi divx file was only pretty close to perfect. I would need to upgrade my xbox for that to even be smooth. Perhaps you mean streaming? in which case I've never bothered streaming. I'd rather use my PC if it's on there. But it's great for common SD movies, and episodes of shows.

- Bender

EDIT: I meant episodes of shows at SD also. I'm not being contradictory. ;-)

Edited by Bender_Unit_1, 16 December 2009 - 02:48 AM.


#8 Bomb Bloke

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Posted 16 December 2009 - 03:32 AM

QUOTE(Bender_Unit_1 @ Dec 16 2009, 09:43 AM) View Post
Have you actually played it Q3? Quake 3 has an awful frame rate. It's just barely playable. I had to make the textures look like bald colors to be decent. The resolution is merely at 800x600 (or 1024x768 I forget). But it's still pretty sad. Granted I'm amazed it runs reasonably well on something with such low specs, but it's not impressive as you think. Like Doom from.. what? '95 on a 1GHz processor as a comparison? Seriously?

Indeed, I have played it. At SD, the resolution is confined to either 720x480 (NTSC) or 720x576 (PAL), so if the game's attempting to output something other then that, it'd need to scale it back down before sending it to the TV (which is in itself a waste of processor time). I'd need to re-install it to take a closer look and see what exactly it does about that.

Keeping in mind we're talking about a game released about a couple of years before the X-Box itself came out, a game which eventually went open source, there's no good reason why a native port wouldn't run perfectly.

Again, I have not tested it at HD resolution levels.

QUOTE(Bender_Unit_1 @ Dec 16 2009, 09:43 AM) View Post
And I highly disagree with the speed of mkv also.

To elaborate, MKV is a container - it tells you nothing about the specs of the media you're actually trying to play. It's the codecs, resolutions and bitrates that are important here. If you take the video/audio streams from any given AVI and dump 'em directly in an MKV, it'll make no difference whatsoever to the horsepower required to play the file.

That is to say, odds are my video files are entirely different to your video files. The fact that they have the same file extension is irrelevant. Indeed, there are many files floating around these days that're simply unplayable on the original console unless you completely re-encode them.

For what it's worth, you can often get a speed boost by pressing the white button over a video file, selecting "Play Using" and going with the DVDPlayer. It just won't work on as many files as the default MPlayer will.

#9 Bender_Unit_1

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Posted 16 December 2009 - 06:07 AM

QUOTE
The h.264-type codecs people like to use with it, not so much... sad.gif


That's my point. The extension isn't necessarily meaningful. It's the codec for the mkv files that I'm referencing. Sure, the mkv format can run on xbmc. But that wasn't my point. I assumed the description of the codec was inherent with the file name. The point is that the general consensus (as you admitted) is to use its h.264 codec at 720p or 1080p for online distribution on this format. Who wants to waste time re-encoding and lose even more quality in the process?

I did learn a new thing about the white button trick. I'll see if that affects the high def divx movie I mentioned earlier. However, I'm sure part of my delays have to deal with a default xbox hardware setup. I just don't see a reason to upgrade to 128MB ram yet. I have a spare xbox to rip them from when I see a point.

As for quake 3, that may explain my awful frame rates. Playing with standardized resolutions I was getting roughly 22-23fps and it seemed like an odd balance between choppy and 'reasonable' speed. I'd get nice full speed at... well corners. So I'll adjust the cfg and see how that goes. Although, 720x480 just proves my point. It's low, and the 360 could clearly do better. That brings us back to my quote on higher resolutions. If this was on the 360, an adjustment of Quake 3's resolution would not cause such ridiculous slowdowns. But if this game really was like running Doom on a 1GHz processor, I don't foresee resolution having such a strong influence.

And before you nitpick, yes; Doom did not have much choices in video modes until Doom Legacy was distributed. I used the defaults just like most people at that age.

Perhaps it was to help other people follow, but I do understand many of those points. I know the xbox has enough power to manage it. Even if the RAM is towards the "minimum specification" of the game. But it's worth considering that the xbox not running through windows which gives more leeway. I know Carmac released the source code years ago, like his prior hits (eg Doom as mentioned).

I've never attempted to port code before, but I know many things could go wrong in doing so. Thereby causing slow dows just based upon the inherent code, or added code. I am no great programmer, but I know my share of assembly, and c - even if I dispise programming (I'm a hardware man myself).

But Bomb Bloke is right, the xbox is fading, if not forgotten by many. And it's sad to learn that so little interest is vested in the 360's development. If it does take off half as well, I may finally buy one. But for now, I'm enjoying the smooth emulation on my old xbox.

XBMC is slowed (has been for a bit), but it's already very feature rich, despite my sayings. I'm just pointing out that it's high def career will put you in tears. As a side note, I've also seen it on the Apple TV; so the joy has been spread to others.

- Bender

#10 Bomb Bloke

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Posted 16 December 2009 - 11:19 AM

XBMC doesn't take advantage of RAM upgrades. It'll recognise one if you do it, but it'll still crash and burn if it ever needs more then the base 64mb. This is apparently due to the GPU not being able to access the extra memory.

QUOTE(Bender_Unit_1 @ Dec 16 2009, 01:07 PM) View Post
Although, 720x480 just proves my point. It's low, and the 360 could clearly do better.

It's a limitation of the SD video modes. You can't just pass any signal to the TV. The 360 has to deal with the same constraint, as does any console.

#11 neoryu

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Posted 16 December 2009 - 06:54 PM

The new developments probably will affect Xbox 1 emus. But for most 2-D classics made throughout video game history, the Xbox 1 leaves no room for improvement.

I own a 360 in its retail state, but if I ever modded mine it wouldn't be for a very, very long time. As far as emulation on console is concerned, I'd say the main improvements the 360 could bring to the table are possibly PS2 emulation of some kind, full speed PS1 and N64 emulation, Sega Model 2 emulation, full speed CPS3 emulation and possibly ST-V arcade board emulation. But NeoGeo, CPS2, CPS1, Konami, Sega arcade, all of the 8/16-bit hardware, and much more can be fully enjoyed on the 1st Xbox at full speed with so many more features than their original counterparts. In my experiences, the XBox is still easy to find used even though the manufacturing of new consoles has been discontinued since a few years ago. Like Bomb Bloke said it's virtually impossible to find a new Xbox nowadays.

Many people do treat their PC's like modded XBox consoles nowadays, but nothing beats the generally more portable console for this kind of functionality. Classic gaming on the XBox, with such a large portfolio of games to choose from, is pure nirvana. Obviously the 360 brings more power to the table, but it's also a much more faulty console in terms of hardware design. I would hate to invest as much time any money into it bringing it up to speed, only for it to fail on me with a voided warranty. The Xbox 1 was much easier to fix if parts died.

So I plan to keep gaming on the 1st 'box for the classics and use my 360 for any newer games that interest me. The 1st Xbox was powerful enough to run the majority of the apps I wanted, but I expect a lot of good things coming for people who disagree with that. How this plays out is really up to the developers. I think a lot of them would have left a long time ago if the 360 had been cracked in the same time frame as the Xbox 1. Time will tell. But if it takes off, then the Xtras project will be an even bigger deal than it is now. (props to RX for all that work). The 360 userbase is much larger, which may translate to a larger audience for it. This all depends on a lot of variables though.

Edited by neoryu, 16 December 2009 - 07:04 PM.


#12 tristanx

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Posted 16 December 2009 - 11:02 PM

No... The Saturn will not be emulated on the xbox360. We will have to wait for the xbox720. However the wii, ps3, psp, atari2600 will All have perfect Saturn emu's next week.

Edited by tristanx, 16 December 2009 - 11:04 PM.


#13 Mega Man (?)

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Posted 17 December 2009 - 03:14 AM

QUOTE(tristanx @ Dec 16 2009, 02:02 PM) View Post
No... The Saturn will not be emulated on the xbox360. We will have to wait for the xbox720. However the wii, ps3, psp, atari2600 will All have perfect Saturn emu's next week.

And the legacy continues... tongue.gif


#14 Xmodder deluX

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Posted 17 December 2009 - 03:57 AM

I'm just wondering if future coders will be willing to port all of these great emulators over to the 360 later on. What types of incentives will they have to do so? If most of these old skool emulators play almost perfect on the xbox 1, then why in the world would they consider porting it? So far I see no benefits for doing so. Yes, there may be some benefits for certain emulators such as the n64 and psx, but overall the xbox 1 DOMINATES. For those emulators like n64 and psx, it would be best to play them on a pc because then you will get the best compatibility and speed because the xbox emulators are based off of the pc emulators.

I am not trying to sound pessimistic for any future 360 coders. I would love to see ports for the 360, but I do not see it in the near future. I will continue to use my xbox 1 for a long time and I think that many others will do the same. I would like to thank all coders out there who have made the xbox 1 experience so enjoyable. I salute you. beerchug.gif

#15 mirsad

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Posted 17 December 2009 - 03:47 PM

I wouldn't trust the 360 console either, eveyone I've known has had problems with the 360 console breaking. I myself have had one break and I don't even trust the jasper one I have now.

The original xbox is much more reliable console for use with emu's, and thats where I like to see them on.




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