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Switched Power Source in Controllers


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#1 RDC

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Posted 23 January 2010 - 09:21 AM

Save yourself the trouble of hunting for a good switched voltage source in the controller and use an OctoCoupler to 'make' one. They're fairly cheap, small and will work on any of the versions of controller that are currently out now as well as get you the most voltage you'll be able to without wiring straight up to the batteries and using a switch to manually turn on/off whatever you're powering.

For those of you that aren't aware, an OptoCoupler is like a Transistor (and if you're not aware of what either is a trip to Gooogltown is advised wink.gif ) but the Base is controlled by an LED inside the device, so it's input is isolated from it's output. It takes a little more to turn it on compared to a Transistor, but there's 1 less Resistor to mess with and it can easily turn on a + or - source from a + source whereas an NPN or PNP Transistor alone cannot.

The typical OC has 4 pins, but they come in all types, so I'm just covering the basics here. Read the DataSheet on the OC that you intend to use and make sure it's Forward Voltage of the Input (LED) is no more than 1.5v~1.6v Max, and it's output (Collector Current) is capable of handling the load you need it too before installing it and then wondering why it doesn't work.

EXAMPLE: If you're wanting to use this to turn some LEDs on/off, lets say 4 of them that each have a current rating of 25mA each, and since 4 x 25 = 100, the OC will need to be able to handle at least 100mA of current, and should be rated a bit more than this to be safe.

The Collector of the OC will go to the B+ line or whatever spot you choose for the power source.

The Emitter of the OC will go to your LEDs, Crapid Fire mod or whatever you need to power.

The Cathode of the OC will go to Ground.

The Anode of the OC will go to a 10ohm or so Resistor (the exact value depends on the OC you choose, same with LEDs, read the DS) and then to the Analog Voltage line of the controller, which is switched on/off with the controller.

The recommended spots for wiring up an OC are shown below.

NOTE: This does NOT get you a nice Regulated power source, only one that's switched on/off with the controller. It will still vary with battery voltage on the Wireless controllers and is not recommended for powering Blue or White LEDs. If you want or need a Regulated 3v or higher source from the controller look into (aka Google it) using a Charge Pump or DC-DC converter.

NOTE 2: There's no real reason to mess with this on a Wired controller since it has a 5v source that comes from the console, though it is on all the time, so if you don't want the LEDs or whatever to run constantly an OC can be installed.

WIRED MATRIX

TP7 - Analog Voltage, 1.6v
TP2 - Ground
TP12 or TP18 - 5v

IPB Image

WIRED CL (Common Line)

TP5 - Analog Voltage, 1.6v
TP100, TP101 or TP102 - Ground
TP28 - 5v

IPB Image

WIRELESS MATRIX and WIRELESS MATRIX2

TP7 - Analog Voltage, 1.6v
TP2 or TP22 - Ground
TP1 - AA and PnC B+

IPB Image

WIRELESS CG (Common Ground)

TP8 - Analog Voltage, 1.5v
TP2 or TP22 - Ground
TP1 - AA and PnC B+

IPB Image

WIRELESS CG2 (Common Ground 2)

TP8 - Analog Voltage, 1.5v
TP2 or TP22 - Ground
TP5 - AA and PnC B+

IPB Image

Edited by RDC, 06 April 2011 - 11:34 AM.


#2 boogerboy72

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Posted 24 January 2010 - 06:14 PM

very nice, i take it these are small enough to put inside a controller?

oh and a part number would be awesome,

#3 killer skittle

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Posted 25 January 2010 - 01:39 AM

RDC, where did you graduate from? what degrees do you have from college? you know a lot about electrical engineering, im just wondering, i am in my second year of college for my masters in EE biggrin.gif

#4 PGX

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Posted 25 January 2010 - 02:50 AM

nice this will help alot do you know any places that sell these for cheap?
@Killer Skittle he has PhD in xbox.
@ RDC do you have diagrams of controllers with power sources? I know you have them traced out, but i didn't see any power sources.
peace.

Edited by PGX, 25 January 2010 - 02:56 AM.


#5 RDC

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Posted 25 January 2010 - 04:20 AM

@ boogerboy72 - There are OC in all types of packages from thru hole to BGA, and they are more than small enough to fit inside the controller without getting in the way of anything.

As for any specific part numbers, that really depends on the place as each has a different stock and someone may prefer SMT over thru hole or need one that can handle more current than someone else, that's what the DataSheets are for. wink.gif


@ killer skittle - Never really spent a day in school for electronics, just started taking things apart when I was younger, then seeing if I could put them back together. If I want to know how something works I tear it apart, look things up and trace things out.


@ PGX - Any online parts place will have them, Mouser, DigiKey, etc. and shouldn't cost more than $1 or so for the actual part.

There are no real power sources in the controller except the batteries. It's just easier using an OC to have your own switched B+ source. The only thing better would be to use a Charge Pump or DC-DC converter so it was a Regulated voltage higher than the battery output.


#6 boogerboy72

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Posted 26 January 2010 - 12:13 AM

all the ones im finding are only like 50ma foward current. id have to run a couple to get all the led's i want.

#7 boogerboy72

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Posted 26 January 2010 - 01:56 AM

on second thought, http://www.mouser.co.....NeDqcpBBm7aw=

150ma of juice correct?

#8 RDC

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Posted 26 January 2010 - 03:36 AM

Correct, but go for the third thought. wink.gif Remember I said 4 lead ones were typical, there are all types of packages these things are in, so don't limit yourself to one that's like in the diagrams, they all work pretty much the same way unless it's AC input only or some other form that's not a Transistor Output.

http://www.mouser.co.....6dDq5LWKha9g=

Edited by RDC, 26 January 2010 - 03:39 AM.


#9 boogerboy72

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Posted 26 January 2010 - 10:03 AM

wow, 400ma huh? this things gonna light up like a Christmas tree. i found these they seem to be a tad smaller with the same outputs. Now i just need to figure out pump cells for the green, blue and white led's, unless 3v is enough for them.

Edited by boogerboy72, 26 January 2010 - 10:11 AM.


#10 RDC

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Posted 26 January 2010 - 07:26 PM

They're the same size, PDIP-6, and they're not quite the same Output wise.

You can't get a Regulated 3v to the LEDs from the batteries. If the batteries are 3.3v or so you might get the 3v, as you'll loose a bit thru the OC, same as you would with a Transistor. It's not a straight thru shot like a switch with contacts, they're Semiconductors, and in lay terms, take something to give something, which is a bit of a voltage drop. The batteries are not a Regulated source of power either, so after a bit that voltage is going to drop off and since the OC isn't a Regulator what voltage goes into it is what comes out of it, again minus what it takes to work, and any Blue/White LEDs will start to show it before Red/Green/Amber will since the Blue/White need more voltage.

If you're going to mess around with Charge Pumps and/or DC-DC converters then you can forget about an OC as they can be setup to turn on/off with the controller also. They're much more complex by comparison as they require more components, need to be built a certain way to function properly and they have their limitations as well.

For the record: I honestly don't go for LEDs in a Wireless controller, the battery power you're stuck with makes it either crap looking compared to a Wired controller or more of a hassle than it's worth to get a DC-DC in there. If it's all lit up and you're using it to play games then you're not looking at it, and if you're looking at it you're not using it to play games. The PnC cable has a perfectly good 5v source that comes from the console to use for powering LEDs so you can stare at it all you like while it's charging up or when the 360 is off, then that crap can go out when it's unplugged and time to use the thing. wink.gif


#11 boogerboy72

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Posted 28 January 2010 - 02:59 AM

you make a valid point. i think ill just stick with changing the ROL, well having someone do it for me. i cant hold my hand that steady to save my life.

Edited by boogerboy72, 28 January 2010 - 03:03 AM.


#12 NineLime

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Posted 17 February 2010 - 09:46 PM

What would you recommend when it comes to powering some seriously power hungry LEDs such as:
BLUE 5mm:
Forward voltage: 3.0-3.2V
Current: 20-30 ma

WHITE 5mm:
Forward Voltage: 3.2-3.8V
Current: 30 ma

I did try to google charge pumps and dc-dc converters by the way sleep.gif, I'd just like to know if anyone has successfully used any of these things in a 360 controller for LEDs.

Keep in mind I will use somewhere between 2 and 8 of these depending oh their brightness. I'm also concerned if the battery has enough power for more then 2 of them, because when I had 3 3mm blue ones in a controller with 3 more red ones, AA power was dim and a PNC battery pack made one of the LEDs dim out completely. It seems when I use blue or pink LEDs they get a whole lot brighter when the play and charge kit is plugged in.

Edited by NineLime, 17 February 2010 - 09:46 PM.


#13 billy_bob-au

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Posted 16 March 2010 - 06:01 AM

HI RDC... nice work man

#14 NineLime

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Posted 28 March 2010 - 10:38 PM

Hey RDC thanks for making this tut, it really helps that there are people out there that like to share stuff like this.

If you have time, could you go through the datasheet of OCs I bought and tell me if they will work, and what resistor I need?

I got 4 of these within the US for $6 http://pdf1.alldatas...S/ILD615-4.html

I have 3 questions about these:
Did I buy the right OC?

What value resistor do I use for a cg2? The datasheet confuses me with 2 saturated, and 2 non-saturated switching time circuits to use, not sure which one I need for this usage.

I was using 2 PIC chips a PIC and a bunch of LEDs, would it be best to use both the OCs within this 8pin package, or run it all through one?

I also have 30 el pc 817 4-pin ones coming from taiwan, for $4, hopefully those will work they are smaller too.

Also, if you could give me a part number or anything for a DC-DC converter and or charge pump to get around 3.2v on battery and PNC on a CG2 that would be great.

#15 RDC

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Posted 28 March 2010 - 11:19 PM

You'd use the same value Resistor on any version of controller really, that 0.1v difference between the Matrix and CG/CG2 isn't going to create an issue, and from the Vf in the DS you can do the math or use an LED calculator to figure that out instead of having me doing it for you.

You're only using the thing as a switch, there's no need to go reading the entire DS like it's gospel and likewise getting all confused by it, the only few values you should really be concerned with are the Emitter's Vf and Forward Current, then the Detector's Collector Current, which is also in the DS and adding up what your powering will give you the number to compare that to, and I doubt that 50mA will cut it for you LEDs, that should be powered form the PnC connector really, who's looking at the thing while you're playing a game anyway? It's just a pointless drain on the batteries is all just for it to look pretty, let it look pretty while it's sitting there charging and can be looked at.

I'm not getting into any of that DC-DC mess right now, there's no 'one size fits all' there. You really need to know the values of what you're powering and factor that into building them up, they don't work like a power supply and a regulator where the load will only pull the current it needs, the load on a DC-DC converter will change how they work. You can just make one up and stick it in there with ballpark figures, but don't expect it to work as efficiently as it's supposed too, or at all unless everything is done correctly with it.





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