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The Ap25 Faq - In Depth And Updated For 13604


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#16 DevilDave

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Posted 12 April 2011 - 04:53 PM

QUOTE(Defosho @ Mar 2 2011, 02:04 AM) View Post

Why don't we extract _every_ AP25 response from the original disc then patch our games with this data so that our backups will never need to be re-burned?
Not feasible. The console is currently sending 13 challenges to the drive to produce response data that can be captured. Microsoft could change the challenges at any time at which point we can capture the new response data. The total number of possible challenges is potentially very large as each challenge includes two disc locations and there is a lot of suitable locations on a disc.


Ok so if I understand this correctly, there is an unlimited number of AP2.5 challenges? Is the AP2.5 data not stored on the original disc? The original discs cannot be updated in any way so why can't we copy all AP2.5 data from the disc? Or is it that it is only possible to extract the AP2.5 data needed once the challenges from the updates are known? The way I see it; once the challenges are known from the updates, you can extract this data from the disc, because you know what data to extract. Is this correct?

#17 Defosho

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Posted 12 April 2011 - 05:53 PM

QUOTE(DevilDave @ Apr 12 2011, 11:53 AM) View Post
Ok so if I understand this correctly, there is an unlimited number of AP2.5 challenges?

Not exactly unlimited, but large enough to be considered "effectively unlimited".

QUOTE
Is the AP2.5 data not stored on the original disc? The original discs cannot be updated in any way so why can't we copy all AP2.5 data from the disc?

There is no actual data being stored for AP25 on an original disc. The disc is merely responding differently to challenges compared to a DVD+R DL because the data is stored differently at a physical level.

QUOTE
Or is it that it is only possible to extract the AP2.5 data needed once the challenges from the updates are known? The way I see it; once the challenges are known from the updates, you can extract this data from the disc, because you know what data to extract. Is this correct?

Correct, only when the challenges are known can they be sent to the drive to return the correct response.

#18 ruciz

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Posted 12 April 2011 - 08:37 PM

@DevilDave - We can't extract what we don't know. The challenge is offered by the system and the disc gives a response. We don't know all the possible challenges to get the responses - least from what I gather. When MS puts them in play we will know.

microsoft has essentially made backups impossible for any system made after 2007.
The systems before 2007 should've been JTAGed, but if not they have drives and OSIG that suits non-ap2.5. Im fully content MS won't really implement this in their current 360 system (AAA titles only) but will do it 3-fold in their next console provided it is successful on a small scale with the 360. (ill probably eat crow for this statement)

we know that MS can reflash the drives remotely, those with AP2.5, which could result in ANY change in the firmware at any time,new C/R's, different drive keys, new decryption algo... anythings possible at any time. Those who don't use live only have to worry when dash updates are released or on-game updates.

MS can change the C/R on the fly, and we don't have the original disc to regenerate the proper key we are out in left field. Sadly this is 2-way comms now, unlike satellite we can't write a blocker to bypass any checks as a valid response is needed or else.

A man in the middle attack would work similar to how the WII was done when we couldn't patch RAM anymore I do believe, but that means a modchip and continuous updates to it. This wouldn't be possible for slims as MS software blocked their backup reading ability, like Nintendo had done. These drives WOULD require a CFW on them at all times to bypass this check and boot the disc. Im very doubtful someone could write a software emulator and interface a HDD holding ISO images to the 360 - can be hopeful tho.

MS essentially enabled a key-rolling scheme AND a remote flasher that could and will reflash the 360 drive as it pleases, as well as making any discs wrote invalid. I guess if theres 50 possible AP2.5 combos per game we would have 50 different discs available. Not good. Kudos MS, only took ya 5 years to figure this out.

#19 dradra

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Posted 13 April 2011 - 10:07 PM

QUOTE(Defosho @ Apr 12 2011, 05:53 PM) View Post

Not exactly unlimited, but large enough to be considered "effectively unlimited".

I guess Ap25 Challenges are actually some kind of mathematical calculation with dvd angles, protection and or dvd sectors. Since challenges results are not stored in the original media, but calculated. If a better way of modeling the protection information from the original disc is created, you could virtually defeat the protection, instead of just using a challenge/result table.



#20 dethknite

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Posted 14 April 2011 - 03:13 AM

So I had to post my idea..

1.) Store AP25 data either on the HD, USB, or System Drive if exists.
2.) Updated firmware calls: getAP25data.exe <game uid>
3.) getAP25data.exe returns the expected AP25 data from the database to the drive to return for the AP25 checks.

This would make the AP25 data update-able.

Not sure on the size limitations in the firmware for coding a call out or anything... I just had to post my idea in case it would be of any assistance.

#21 tisurame

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Posted 15 April 2011 - 08:20 PM

About these AP2.5 patches released by russian hackers, I would like to know if using that patch with the old LT firmware (and with the 12625 dashboard, used by Dragon Age 2, for example) will allow all games released until now to work, including Halo Reach, Fable 3 and Black Ops.

I'm still using the old LT firmware, don't care about Xbox Live and since updating the firmware is too much hassle for me, I wondering if these patches will solve my problem (until now).

Edit: I'm currently using that old AP25 bypass method, by the way.


Thanks.

Edited by tisurame, 15 April 2011 - 08:29 PM.


#22 blackopsftw

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Posted 15 April 2011 - 08:59 PM

LT won't handle AP25 challenge requests so AP25 games will never work with later dashboards until you update your drive FW.

#23 D3m0nicSoul

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Posted 27 April 2011 - 07:26 AM

So if i have a samsung drive that doesnt support ap2.5 is there any way they can update it to support 2.5? or am i safe?

#24 arcsbite

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Posted 07 May 2011 - 06:53 PM

don't mean to be "special" but can I just check

can I still play my old back ups without reburning?
I'm running LT+ v1.1
I've verified and reburnt games on the ap25 list (Like black ops)

but my older games that I played back in the iXtreme days, can I still play this without issue?

thanks

#25 the_wind

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Posted 11 May 2011 - 06:26 PM

QUOTE(arcsbite @ May 7 2011, 01:53 PM) View Post

don't mean to be "special" but can I just check

can I still play my old back ups without reburning?
I'm running LT+ v1.1
I've verified and reburnt games on the ap25 list (Like black ops)

but my older games that I played back in the iXtreme days, can I still play this without issue?

thanks

Call me paranoid, but after LT+ was released, I put all of my previous backups away and before putting one of them into XBox360 I always check it through the latest available version of abgx360. Since I don't remember what options I used while ripping them in the first place, the latest revision of abgx360 made it safer to play backups on XBL for the following reasons:
1) Video partition needs to match PFI (in other words, the wave needs to match the versions that are compatible with game's PFI)
2) SplitVid must be valid
3) always have SSv2 in your backup (unless only SSv1 is available for the title in abgx360's verified database)

Here is a good article on why SSv2 is important.

Also, wanted to mention that with the coming dashboard update to support XGD3 disks and the new fw version LT+ v2.0, we might need to repeat the cycle of re-verifying backups through abgx360 once again.

I am not an expert on this topic so please correct me when I write something untrue.

#26 fjleon

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Posted 15 May 2011 - 11:16 PM

i have old iextreme 1.61 on a xbox arcade that came with a LiteON DG-16D2S 93450c .

I was able to play assassins creed brotherhood by doing the ap25 bypass method, so my dash is 12416.

The faq says newer games like dragon age 2 require a newer dashboard. The question is, do i need LT+ or can i just update to the latest dash?

I would have updated to LT+, the problem is that i live in Venezuela and it isn't easy to find someone that will flash my drive for me, and i am not skilled enough to open up the xbox myself.

#27 uradodah

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Posted 18 May 2011 - 06:52 PM

QUOTE(fjleon @ May 15 2011, 05:16 PM) View Post
i have old iextreme 1.61 on a xbox arcade that came with a LiteON DG-16D2S 93450c .

I was able to play assassins creed brotherhood by doing the ap25 bypass method, so my dash is 12416.

The faq says newer games like dragon age 2 require a newer dashboard. The question is, do i need LT+ or can i just update to the latest dash?

I would have updated to LT+, the problem is that i live in Venezuela and it isn't easy to find someone that will flash my drive for me, and i am not skilled enough to open up the xbox myself.
This is not meant as an insult...

If you're "not skilled enough" to open your 360 then you probably shouldn't be using a modded console in the first place. Lots of changes are coming and there's NO WAY you'll be able to keep up with them if you can't do it yourself (since you don't have anyone else available to help).

In all honesty, my 11 year old son knows how to open our console. If he can do it, you should be able to do it as well. It's very easy to do and guides are available to help.

As far as your f/w is concerned, NEVER use your console without the latest f/w. As of right now, you'll need LT+ v1.1 to play newer games (AP2.5). You'll also need to re-flash the ORIGINAL (stock) f/w before doing future dashboard updates (see the new beta dashboard FAQ). Once the new dashboards are installed (beginning with the newest beta dashboards), you can apparently flash back to custom f/w - BUT - some games will need to be re-burned AGAIN (since new AP2.5 checks are included). Again, see the beta dash FAQ for more info.


#28 babylonx

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Posted 21 May 2011 - 05:37 AM

I made a few conclusions after reading your FAQ but it would be great if you could confirm them in case I am wrong.

1) Any older game could be AP25 activated in the future. Any AP25 game thats already activated may have its challenges updated in the future. The above things can only happen when there are new dashboard updates.

For example, I may be able to play Forza Motorsport 3 today safely on 12625 but it might be activated suddenly in the future by another dashboard. I may be able to safely play NFS:HP safely on 12625 today but if challenges are updated on a newer dashboard in the future I need to have it patched with the updated challenges and reburn it if I update to that dashboard. Activations and challenge updates happen with dashboard updates only, right? Or not? Can the DAE table be updated by MS without a dashboard update?

2) If I have my drive flashed with LT+ v1.1 and try to boot a game which is AP25 activated and have an old non AP25 copy LT will protect me and prevent it from booting and flagging me. But what happens with games burnt with AP25 challenges if that challenges are updated? If I update my dashboard and the new one has updated challenges the game will try to boot, AP25 is going to fail and I am going to be flagged right? If I got that right, assuming you have LT+, your older AP25 activated games that you have burnt in the past are safer than games with outdated AP25 patches. So you must be extra careful and recheck your AP25 burnt games every time you update your dashboard.

I also have a question for you:
You provided as with the EAD table that, if I got it right, is going to be updated every time there's a new dashboard and new IDs added. Is there any way to check if any challenges are updated from it? For example NFS:HP was activated with 12416. Do its challenges remain the same with 12625? How can I be sure that abgx360 downloaded the most updated version that is safe for 12625 that I currently have? It may be just adding the 12416 version challenges. Is there any way I can check that?

Edited by babylonx, 21 May 2011 - 05:39 AM.


#29 Defosho

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Posted 23 May 2011 - 10:55 PM

QUOTE(babylonx @ May 21 2011, 12:37 AM) View Post
...
Activations and challenge updates happen with dashboard updates only, right? Or not? Can the DAE table be updated by MS without a dashboard update?

The table is just a file on the NAND so I wouldn't rule out the possibility of MS updating it with updated challenges during other less major XBL updates. I'd rather not speculate :)

QUOTE(babylonx @ May 21 2011, 12:37 AM) View Post
...
But what happens with games burnt with AP25 challenges if that challenges are updated? If I update my dashboard and the new one has updated challenges the game will try to boot, AP25 is going to fail and I am going to be flagged right?
...

That won't be a problem because (new) unknown challenges won't be in the replay sector at all so when LT+ can't find a challenge in the replay sector it will protect you (black screen). Only a replay sector with a challenge set with the wrong responses will cause a secdata flag, which is why it's important to obtain patches from trusted sources.

QUOTE(babylonx @ May 21 2011, 12:37 AM) View Post
...
Is there any way to check if any challenges are updated from it? For example NFS:HP was activated with 12416. Do its challenges remain the same with 12625? How can I be sure that abgx360 downloaded the most updated version that is safe for 12625 that I currently have? It may be just adding the 12416 version challenges. Is there any way I can check that?

Good question. NFS:HP has the same challenge set in 12416 and 12625. Now that challenges have changed in 13146 there should be a way to distinguish patches so you'll know which you need to use. But as mentioned, if you apply the wrong patch for your dash version, you'll be protected by LT+ as long as the patch is genuine. My games list spreadsheet will be updated to make things clearer in the coming weeks.

Edited by Defosho, 23 May 2011 - 11:21 PM.


#30 babylonx

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Posted 24 May 2011 - 10:53 PM

Thank you very much for your answers. As you can see, my main concern is whether valid but outdated patches can cause a flag. As soon as LT+ also protects us from them then I guess there is no reason to worry since the worst thing that may happen is the copy not booting. Then you just have to wait for the challenges to be updated at abgx360.net, repatch the game and reburn it.

That cleared a lot of grey areas. Thanks again!




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