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Taking A Cap From Another Board


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#1 xboxhaxorz

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Posted 09 March 2011 - 07:25 AM

I have a jasper board that i hit 2 caps when i removed the x clamps. The big cap was still hanging so i just resoldered it back on. The small cap i got from a zephyr board, i am getting 0022. So am thinking that cap did not work.

I measured the ohm and i got around 97 when i did it on 2 other boards i got around 60
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#2 RDC

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Posted 09 March 2011 - 01:53 PM

C4T43 there is just a Decoupling Cap, so the exact value isn't going to make much difference. Installed or not, it's not causing the 0022 error.


#3 xboxhaxorz

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Posted 09 March 2011 - 10:13 PM

Gotcha, well ill give a brief desc of the board and how it got to me. There was a power outage, a customer brought it to me, i tried MY power supply and it worked fine.

I then proceeded to upgrade the thermal compound where i messed up my clamp removal and hit those 2 components. I immediately tested and got the 0022 i put those components back on and got 0022.

There was nothing else performed to the board, and by looking at the board there seems to be no other damage.

From looking at this database it seems a component could cause it. But you say those 2 circled components would not cause it.

Any ideas, since everything else looks peachy to me?

#4 ExitRooster

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Posted 10 March 2011 - 12:34 AM

I'm in no way attacking your method of doing business, but if the system worked fine with your power supply (by the way, how long did you power it up, are you sure powering it up didn't cause more damage, perhaps the original power supply blew a fuse due to an internal issue?) why would you then tear it apart anyway to 'upgrade the thermal compound?

Sounds to me, and I'm no expert, that when you undid the clamps you probably messed up the seating on the chips, busting a bga or more loose. This to me seems highly likey and yet another reason why people shouldn't poke around with that which worked fine. The other alternative to bga damage, as mentioned in that link you provided about the error, as well as in the top 5 posts here currently, is that you damaged one or more traces on the mobo.

#5 RDC

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Posted 10 March 2011 - 01:41 AM

If everything is fine and no other damage was done, then taking it apart most likely caused it. The 0022 and such all lead back to some GPU solder joint sooner or later. Taking apart the 360 is about the worst thing that one can do to it as that just puts all kinds of stress on the BGA joints that are already crap to begin with on the 360. Preventative maintenance is one thing, but you have to literally open a can of worms when doing that to a 360.

#6 xboxhaxorz

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Posted 10 March 2011 - 07:46 AM

Yes preventative maintenance is why i do that. Now though i just do the 12v mod because i have had 2 of them give me errors after i removed heat sinks. I started my repair business to help people with low cost repairs as an alternative to m$. So i did my best to make the customer happy, the 12v and thermal upgrade was part of it. So that there was a chance they would never get it. So now its just 12v NEVER remove heatsinks. Unless of course it has an RROD.


My intention is to prevent the RROD if it hasnt happened, i dont want it to happen but eh im done with that. I did give the customer another xbox, since i broke his, but now im working on getting it back to life.

So would the 0022 DEF be BGA related, caps wouldnt cause it? I had not done a reflow on it. Since i figured it was cap related. In my experience though 0022 is bridged joint.


Edit: Well the customer told me it would not turn on at all at his house after the surge or watever. It powered up immediately at my house and went to dash so i figured nothing is wrong with the console just his power supply which took the hit, it still powers up NOW just 0022.


Edited by xboxhaxorz, 10 March 2011 - 07:52 AM.


#7 RDC

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Posted 10 March 2011 - 08:26 AM

Remove them and see how it acts, still 0022 then it's some other issue, if it works then you had a short there, troubleshooting 101.

#8 xboxhaxorz

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Posted 11 March 2011 - 01:37 AM

well i removed the big cap and i think i found the problem. i tested and still 0022.

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this can be fixed?

#9 RDC

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Posted 11 March 2011 - 02:33 AM

Fixing it isn't going to fix the 0022. The 2 Vias that were connected by that pad are connected elsewhere on the board, so the only thing fouled up there is just that Cap missing, and since it's a Decoupling Cap even with it missing it's not causing the error, so you're back to some other issue or some BGA joint causing it.

#10 digipimp75

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Posted 11 March 2011 - 03:07 AM

I learned my lesson the hard way about fixing what isn't broken. Got a perfectly good working xenon off ebay, and was going to take preventative measures against rrod. It was a virgin system with stock M$ thermal paste. I decided to reflow it as a preventative measure (dumb, I know). The reflow went bad and now it has 0102 lol. The profile was the same I've used for all my reflows, and never had a problem.

Sorry, I'm not really helping out in the thread here. Just wanted to reinforce what's already been said... if it ain't broke, don't fix it smile.gif

#11 xboxhaxorz

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Posted 11 March 2011 - 04:01 AM

so that cap off is no big deal?


well your error 0102 is not bad at all, those are easy to fix. 0022 is a bit troublesome. i guess i will lift the chip and put it back on. hopefully that fixes it, if not well i learned my lesson anywho.

will report back when i do the chip lift, may take a bit since im still waiting for supplies from china

#12 RDC

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Posted 11 March 2011 - 04:13 AM

QUOTE(xboxhaxorz @ Mar 10 2011, 09:01 PM) View Post
so that cap off is no big deal?

Nope.


#13 BKster

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Posted 11 March 2011 - 05:52 AM

Its sure seems like it a lot of caps that wouldn't harm the 360.This got me thinking?why is the cap even there if the 360 could go without it?......which caps are the essential ones needed?...then?..


B.K. The Tech'

Edited by BKster, 11 March 2011 - 05:53 AM.


#14 RDC

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Posted 11 March 2011 - 06:17 AM

It's there because of EE specs and such. For every power pin of an IC there should be a Decoupling Cap for it, things like ripple rejection, eliminating the switching noise of the PSU and other power managment ICs on the board, and tons of other crap that most times only matters on paper, but in the real world can be fudged to some degree. Groups of smaller Caps are used because they can charge/discharge faster than a large one of the same overall value also. Missing a few of these Decoupling Caps here and there isn't going to cause any noticeable issues, it's like pulling out a few hairs from your head, you just wouldn't want to go pulling out handfuls of it though, and the same is true with the Decoupling Caps, a few missing here or there is alright, remove a pile of them and expect issues sooner or later.

Any Coupling Caps are necessary though as they pass AC signals and block DC, so missing one of them will cause something to not get a signal it needs and something will not work for sure. They should also be replaced with the same value as what was originally in there.

Anything in a filter circuit or used around an IC that's not specifically a Decoupling Cap should always be replaced, and replaced with the correct value, same as Coupling Caps.

If you really need to know which are needed and which aren't, get a board and an iron and start going one by one until you've had each one off the board and saw what the result was. Though putting the board thru that kind of stress the thing will most likely up and die long before you were even part of the way done with that pointless experiment.


#15 BKster

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Posted 11 March 2011 - 06:37 AM

QUOTE(RDC @ Mar 10 2011, 11:17 PM) View Post

It's there because of EE specs and such. For every power pin of an IC there should be a Decoupling Cap for it, things like ripple rejection, eliminating the switching noise of the PSU and other power managment ICs on the board, and tons of other crap that most times only matters on paper, but in the real world can be fudged to some degree. Groups of smaller Caps are used because they can charge/discharge faster than a large one of the same overall value also. Missing a few of these Decoupling Caps here and there isn't going to cause any noticeable issues, it's like pulling out a few hairs from your head, you just wouldn't want to go pulling out handfuls of it though, and the same is true with the Decoupling Caps, a few missing here or there is alright, remove a pile of them and expect issues sooner or later.

Any Coupling Caps are necessary though as they pass AC signals and block DC, so missing one of them will cause something to not get a signal it needs and something will not work for sure. They should also be replaced with the same value as what was originally in there.

Anything in a filter circuit or used around an IC that's not specifically a Decoupling Cap should always be replaced, and replaced with the correct value, same as Coupling Caps.

If you really need to know which are needed and which aren't, get a board and an iron and start going one by one until you've had each one off the board and saw what the result was. Though putting the board thru that kind of stress the thing will most likely up and die long before you were even part of the way done with that pointless experiment.



Man you sure know you stuff!!...Now i know the difference between a decoupler cap and a coupler cap..I pretty much figured that the caps and resistors around any IC's or BGA was needed.But thanks you sure broke that down to me simple and plain.

I may just try desoldering parts from a working board one day so i will know which ones are essiental.It would be a board I dont care to much about though...

Thanks for the Knowledge...I was just curious so I asked...


B.K. The Tech'

Edited by BKster, 11 March 2011 - 06:41 AM.





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