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360 Rrod, No Error Codes


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#1 SlimXero

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 02:58 AM

Ok, so a few weeks ago, my dad's 360 began red ringing. It's an older model, over 3 years old that a friend of his got for him. Long story short, i purchased an X-clamp fix kit from Llama, and performed the fix, to the T. Cleaned both CPU and GPU, reapplied thermal paste, et al. We ended up having to overheat it 3 times as the first 2 times did next to nothing as we had the dvd drive sitting on the edge of the case, which was allowing the gpu to dissipate too much heat. 3rd time's the charm (or so we thought), left the dvd drive in and it got considerably hotter. Left it on for 45 minutes, and we also decided to wire the fan to an external 12v power source (12v 400mah, fans are rated for 12v 500mah) as we were uncomfortable trying to tie in to the dvd power source, and he doesn't really care if the back of the box has a cord coming out of it. Turned it off, waited 15-20 minutes, and everything worked fine for about 2-2.5 weeks.

Well tonight, we were playing dungeon siege III and we'd been experiencing crashes the last few nights. Last night we installed the game to the HD and tonight we connected to Live and downloaded the newest updates. Played for about 5 hours with no glitches/hiccups, but paused the game to go smoke and came back to a black screen. Controllers didn't work, etc, so we rebooted the xbox only to get the RROD again. No error codes displayed on screen, which is frustrating.

Does it need to reflowed/reballed, or does this sound like a cold joint somewhere, or should i try overheating it again? As i said, it's only really been overheated once, the other two times it didn't get nearly hot enough to reflow anything.

Thanks in advance.

TL;DR: performed xclamp fix, still red ringing. no error codes. help?

#2 Weirdjerz3y

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 03:15 AM

The heat trick, never get hots enough to actually re-flow the GPU, or any chip for that matter since lead-free solder has a melting point around 400F or higher(forgot exact number). The overheating trick is causing more harm than good as the chip is heating up to a point its normally not supposed to. The X-clamp fix was found to cause more harm than good, as it just forces the connections to touch and causes flexing. Your best chance of keeping the Xbox running well is to send it in to a professional here, instead of trying anymore quick cheap fixes. And the heat-gun isn't another great fix either, in-case you were thinking about that. And as in for the 12volt fan mod, you can just bridge the connections as shown here: http://forums.xbox-s...howtopic=637955 A pro Reflow or Reball(if its needed) is usually the only way to go for a longer lasting fix. Sometimes people get lucky with the X-clamp fix, but its exactly that, luck.
No error codes how? Did you hold the sync button and press eject 4 times? You should get something like 0102, 0020, etc.

Edited by Weirdjerz3y, 13 May 2012 - 03:16 AM.


#3 canyonnehastings

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 03:15 AM

QUOTE(SlimXero @ May 12 2012, 08:58 PM) View Post

Ok, so a few weeks ago, my dad's 360 began red ringing. It's an older model, over 3 years old that a friend of his got for him. Long story short, i purchased an X-clamp fix kit from Llama, and performed the fix, to the T. Cleaned both CPU and GPU, reapplied thermal paste, et al. We ended up having to overheat it 3 times as the first 2 times did next to nothing as we had the dvd drive sitting on the edge of the case, which was allowing the gpu to dissipate too much heat. 3rd time's the charm (or so we thought), left the dvd drive in and it got considerably hotter. Left it on for 45 minutes, and we also decided to wire the fan to an external 12v power source (12v 400mah, fans are rated for 12v 500mah) as we were uncomfortable trying to tie in to the dvd power source, and he doesn't really care if the back of the box has a cord coming out of it. Turned it off, waited 15-20 minutes, and everything worked fine for about 2-2.5 weeks.

Well tonight, we were playing dungeon siege III and we'd been experiencing crashes the last few nights. Last night we installed the game to the HD and tonight we connected to Live and downloaded the newest updates. Played for about 5 hours with no glitches/hiccups, but paused the game to go smoke and came back to a black screen. Controllers didn't work, etc, so we rebooted the xbox only to get the RROD again. No error codes displayed on screen, which is frustrating.

Does it need to reflowed/reballed, or does this sound like a cold joint somewhere, or should i try overheating it again? As i said, it's only really been overheated once, the other two times it didn't get nearly hot enough to reflow anything.

Thanks in advance.

TL;DR: performed xclamp fix, still red ringing. no error codes. help?


Ahh I'm not trying to bash you but it hurts my soul that these youtube fixes have taken over the internet. The x-clamp/overheat "fix" is not a fix at all. The error is caused by a cold solder joint usually, which means a small crack developed in a solder ball (usually under the GPU). The bolts put enough pressure on the chip to bridge the points, but only for a temporary amount of time. You are never supposed to overheat a system like that. There is a max operating temperature for the GPU when it is on and running, and there is another max temperature when it is off and not running. Needless to say, a reflow or a reball should be done when its off, because the max temperature is much higher. Even if the high temperatures didn't damage the chip when it was on, overheating like that does not even get the solder close to its melting point at around 212 degrees C. Your system probably still has hope, if reflowed PROPERLY or reballed.

You can get the secondary error code by holding down the sync button and pressing the eject button 4 times. Each time a different amount of lights will flash. Note that 4 lights = zero. Some common codes are 0102 and 0110.

Letting us know the error code can help us pin point the part of the board that needs the reflow. Also, for modding the fans, you can wire them right under the power port of the xbox, it will be a clean uninterrupted 12v source.

I don't recommend using a heat gun or oven to reflow as this can often cause localized thermal expansion and warp the board beyond repair, blow capacitors, or blow off tiny surface components.

If you wanted, I could reflow your board for you with my reworking station, but I don't have a reballing jig to do a reball.

I would charge 20 bucks + whatever shipping is for it, and I wouldn't mind just doing the 12v mod while I had it.

Otherwise, many of your local computer repair shops or game shops may have the equipment to fix it, but they may charge an arm and a leg and a lot of them refuse to touch any Xbox that has been opened.

I wish you the best! If you do decide to go the risky route and reflow it yourself, please please PLEASE buy some no-clean lead-free flux and flux the chip first. I can not stress this enough. You may destroy your whole board attempting to reflow, but at least you would have a nice clean and oxidation-free gpu reflow, assuming you don't reach temperatures that are too low or too high.



#4 wilgo45

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 04:15 AM

Can do a Gpu chip reball - if you're interested

You get that secondary code yet ??


#5 RobZilla10001

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 08:27 PM

edit: i'm an idiot

Edited by RobZilla10001, 13 May 2012 - 08:29 PM.


#6 canyonnehastings

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 08:31 PM

QUOTE(RobZilla10001 @ May 13 2012, 02:27 PM) View Post

edit: i'm an idiot


If you find someone local, try to avoid random people on craigslist and look for someone in an actualy computer repair shop or video game shop. They'd be more likely to have the right equipment. Some random person on craigslist would be more likely to throw the Xbox in an oven or shoot a heatgun at it, which might work at first, but if it breaks again he's likely out of luck.

#7 SlimXero

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 08:36 PM

i performed the x-clamp fix as i'd had moderate success with it in the past. ugh. I guess i'll be trying to find someone here relatively close as i'm not wanting to just drop my xbox in the mail to someone.

QUOTE(canyonnehastings @ May 13 2012, 02:31 PM) View Post

If you find someone local, try to avoid random people on craigslist and look for someone in an actualy computer repair shop or video game shop. They'd be more likely to have the right equipment. Some random person on craigslist would be more likely to throw the Xbox in an oven or shoot a heatgun at it, which might work at first, but if it breaks again he's likely out of luck.


I'm sorry, i was misunderstood. I meant i was going to look for someone on the boards here relatively local.

#8 canyonnehastings

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 10:07 PM

QUOTE(SlimXero @ May 13 2012, 02:36 PM) View Post

i performed the x-clamp fix as i'd had moderate success with it in the past. ugh. I guess i'll be trying to find someone here relatively close as i'm not wanting to just drop my xbox in the mail to someone.
I'm sorry, i was misunderstood. I meant i was going to look for someone on the boards here relatively local.


Ahh I understand. You might want to check some other forums too like xbox-experts or se7ensins to increase your chances of finding someone close. You can ship an xbox for about 11 dollars flat rate anywhere in the US through USPS too. I'm in the Chicago area just so you're aware, and I also know people who do this in the Indiana area and California too I believe.

#9 SlimXero

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 11:34 PM

QUOTE(wilgo45 @ May 12 2012, 10:15 PM) View Post

Can do a Gpu chip reball - if you're interested

You get that secondary code yet ??



0100 is the secondary code


#10 canyonnehastings

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 11:46 PM

QUOTE(SlimXero @ May 13 2012, 05:34 PM) View Post

0100 is the secondary code


A reflow will fix that then, but you have the option of a reball too.

#11 SlimXero

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 01:51 PM

what would be the advantage to a reball over a reflow? Sorry for the obviously noobish question, but while i've modded and repaired pc's and other consoles for years, i'm relatively new to the xbox scene. 4-5 years ago when i was actually paying attention, the x-clamp replacement was the way to go.

#12 MadMaxGR

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 02:19 PM

QUOTE(SlimXero @ May 14 2012, 03:51 PM) View Post

what would be the advantage to a reball over a reflow? Sorry for the obviously noobish question, but while i've modded and repaired pc's and other consoles for years, i'm relatively new to the xbox scene. 4-5 years ago when i was actually paying attention, the x-clamp replacement was the way to go.


The reflow is like when you reheat one day old dinner dish
The reball is like cooking fresh and nice dinner dish

laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif



#13 canyonnehastings

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 03:00 PM

QUOTE(SlimXero @ May 14 2012, 07:51 AM) View Post

what would be the advantage to a reball over a reflow? Sorry for the obviously noobish question, but while i've modded and repaired pc's and other consoles for years, i'm relatively new to the xbox scene. 4-5 years ago when i was actually paying attention, the x-clamp replacement was the way to go.


Well the biggest difference is the price. Reballs take much more time and precision than reflows and usually cost quite a bit more (50-130 dollars, ive seen).

Reballing is considered the better option and I will explain why. The solder used to hold all the chips to the motherboard in an Xbox is lead-free because the law requires it to be (since its marketed directly to children). Lead free solder is very brittle compared to leaded solder, so after many power cycles of rapid heating and cooling, it cracks. These little cracks cause RROD, e74, etc. because they sever the connection between that specific solder ball on the chip.

A reflow is when you remelt the solder balls to reconnect the balls that have developed cracks with a reworking machine. A lot of people try to reflow by overheating their Xbox, using an oven, or using a heatgun, all of these methods can destroy your machine forever and I avoid not looking to do them.

Now, a reflow can last a good long time (in fact I've been doing this a long time and have never had one come back to me, but whos to say they all broke and the people just didn't want to come back - still not likely in my book), but only if they are done right. I use a reworking station, a preheater, and flux to reflow the Xbox's I receive. The preheater gets whole motherboard up to a certain temperature to prevent localized thermal expansion and warping once the reworking station heats up a specific part of the board to reflow. Reworking stations have special nozzles made for certain chips, even airflow, and are temperature controlled. Flux is extremely important for a clean reflow because it will remove oxidation from the solder balls under the chip before they are remelted and also soften the balls to ready them for a clean reflow. Remelting them with the oxidation still there will leave you with much more brittle solder balls than it had when it was shipped, resulting in a short lived reflow. An xbox must also be reflowed at the target temperature of 220-240C. Less than this, and the solder will not completely melt, and the reflow will be short lived. More than this, and you can bridge solder points on the board, which would require a full reball. This is why having a temperature controlled station is important. It is also important to monitor the surface temps of the motherboard with thermocouples and/or an infrared thermometer. I use both.

A reball is done similarly, but takes more effort. It is when the reworking station heats the chip and then the entire chip is removed. The solder is cleaned completely off of the chip and the spot it was on on the board and then new solder balls are applied. Usually leaded solder balls are applied because they are much more resistant to rapid changes in heat and will make that chip last much longer in the future. Then the chip is precisely placed back onto the board and heated so the solder remelts and connects to the points on the board.

The reason I don't feel reballs are worth it (or worth the money, rather) is because you can reball one chip, like the GPU, but then the same thing can happen to all the other chips (southbridge, HANA, RAM, CPU), and unless you reball ALL of them, you can expect it to die eventually. The only way to make an Xbox completely RROD-proof is to manufacture it with leaded solder from the start and increase the cooling. Other than that, as far as I'm concerned, every Xbox 360 is a ticking time bomb, even Jasper and Slim models.



All the x-clamp mod does is use bolts to put pressure on the chip. This pressure can force the two sides of a cracked solder ball together to make the connection again, but this is a temporary fix in every situation. And that kind of pressure can damage the chip forever.

#14 SlimXero

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 03:32 PM

canyonnehastings, you are a wealth of information. Thank you very much. I've been watching videos on reballing all morning and i'm confident with the right equipment i could perform a reball, but

QUOTE(canyonnehastings @ May 14 2012, 09:00 AM) View Post

The reason I don't feel reballs are worth it (or worth the money, rather) is because you can reball one chip, like the GPU, but then the same thing can happen to all the other chips (southbridge, HANA, RAM, CPU), and unless you reball ALL of them, you can expect it to die eventually. The only way to make an Xbox completely RROD-proof is to manufacture it with leaded solder from the start and increase the cooling. Other than that, as far as I'm concerned, every Xbox 360 is a ticking time bomb, even Jasper and Slim models.


that was going to be my next question: what prevents you from having issues with the other chips? and do i really want to continue preheating my board, removing the chips, removing solder from both sides, reball and reheat/readhere the chip back to the board for each and every chip. Almost makes you feel like you'd need to reball every IC and remove all the components from the board and replace every single microgram of solder on the board. and while it would be worth it in the long run to have a smooth running machine, the margin for error is too high IMHO. One capacitor not resoldered correctly or one ball in a BGA not properly mated, and you're screwed.

Gives me a lot to think about.



#15 canyonnehastings

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 07:16 PM

QUOTE(SlimXero @ May 14 2012, 09:32 AM) View Post

canyonnehastings, you are a wealth of information. Thank you very much. I've been watching videos on reballing all morning and i'm confident with the right equipment i could perform a reball, but
that was going to be my next question: what prevents you from having issues with the other chips? and do i really want to continue preheating my board, removing the chips, removing solder from both sides, reball and reheat/readhere the chip back to the board for each and every chip. Almost makes you feel like you'd need to reball every IC and remove all the components from the board and replace every single microgram of solder on the board. and while it would be worth it in the long run to have a smooth running machine, the margin for error is too high IMHO. One capacitor not resoldered correctly or one ball in a BGA not properly mated, and you're screwed.

Gives me a lot to think about.


Yes, but you also have to realize that only the chips that get the hottest are going to have issues. If you reball the GPU, the chip with the biggest fluctuation in temperature, you will bypass the majority of RROD errors. But then theres the other chips, which dont quite get as hot, but have their fair share of errors too.

I don't think you'll ever have to worry about a cold solder joint under a capacitor, but who knows. I think your best bet would be to have it reflowed and possibly fan modded, play it while it lasts, and also maybe save up some money for a jasper or slim unit since they don't have more efficient cooling.

One more thing to think about is, even though I'm sure everyone knows a million people who have had their Xbox's die, the majority of the people out there in the wild, even the ones who bought the Xbox right when it came out in 2005, have not had any issues with their consoles. It's all luck though.




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