Just a random thought... a couple of years ago, there was a tool, that allowed me to view any session on a CD. It came in handy with the Mixed Mode CD's that were appearing at the time.

XBOX Retail DVDs clearly looks like a MULTI-SESSION disk, and placing it in the PC only allows us to view their DVDish Video warning, and the real DATA is stored in another session that is hidden from us by the players.

Some Mixed Mode CD's I used to have functioned in this manner, only booting the PC DATA normally. For a short period of time it fucked up my MP3 Ripping, until better tools were made.

Wouldn't such a program aid us with reading the XBOX DVD in the PC?

And Does anyone remember what Prog allowed Session viewing from MY COMPUTER?

While examining the first session... found MS had it "Prepared by SmartStor Premastering System"

Wonder if any tools exist for further investigation??

No the MS retail disks are NOT Multi-session the way you think.

Do you know how it is laid out?... I've read alot of different theories.. but nothing concrete or conclusive.

I'm of the mindset that every Copying issue with CD and DVD sooner or later is can be corrected, copied, and beaten.

Are there any White-papers on the format available?

Clearly the discs do not have "kosher" TOC tables.

Yet the Xbox will recognize a UDF disc and successfully boot signed (or at least unsigned code it is tricked into running) code. That's probably a vestige of the developer's BIOS.

What does the TOC look like on an original Xbox disc? How does the layout compare to the DVD-ROM standard?

Well... So far... the XBOX DVD is clearly unique. Check out this little comparison between and XBOX Game and a DVD Movie Title


AZURIK XBOX DVD

Table of Contents
There are a total of 2 tracks on CD, plus the lead-out.
No manufacturer information was returned by this disc.
Track 1 occupies 6832 blocks (1 Min, 31 Sec, 7 Frames).
This track contains data and is UDF format.
Track 2 occupies 6992 blocks (1 Min, 33 Sec, 17 Frames).
This track contains audio without pre-emphasis.
Lead-out track starts at block 6992.
---------------------------------------------
Data track 1 recorded as part of session 1.
UDF partition exceeds size of track according to disc information.
This track was written by Smart Storage, Inc..
There are 6 accessible files and 1 directories contained in this track.
There are 7 files that could not be connected to a file name
---------------------------------------------
There are one or more conditions that make replication of this disc questionable.

CDDB key for this CD is 4005d02.

Session:Track Type Volume Start Files
1:1 Pos/Data* SEP13011042072 0 0
2:2 None/Audio* 0 0
0:AA Lead out 6992

* indicates Digital Copying prohibited.

Volume descriptor sequence:0
Volume Identifier: SEP13011042072
Interchange level: 2
Volume set identifier:
Implementation identifier: *Smart Storage, Inc.
Application identifier:
Recording time: 9/13/2001 10:42:55


BEYOND THE MAT Retail Movie DVD

Table of Contents
There are a total of 1 tracks on CD, plus the lead-out.
No manufacturer information was returned by this disc.
Track 1 occupies 2259677 blocks (502 Min, 9 Sec, 2 Frames).
This track contains data and is UDF format.
Lead-out track starts at block 2259677.
---------------------------------------------
Data track 1 recorded as part of session 1.
This track was written by Daikin U.S. Comtec Lab.
There are 19 accessible files and 2 directories contained in this track.
---------------------------------------------
This disc has passed all checks for replication.

The following information was collected by CD-R Diagnostic
Copyright 1997-2002, Arrowkey, Inc.

Session:Track Type Volume Start Files
1:1 Pos/Data* BEYOND_THE_MAT 0 21
0:AA Lead out 2259677

Volume descriptor sequence:0
Volume Identifier: BEYOND_THE_MAT
Interchange level: 2
Volume set identifier: 28ec48c6
Implementation identifier: *Daikin U.S. Comtec La
Application identifier:
Recording time: 7/12/2000 11:06:12

It's looking more and more like the retail DVD for XBOX games is NON-COMPLIANT with the DVD FORUM, and OSTA UDF Compliance.

To use the Term DVD, a manufacturer need to maintain certain conditions for their released DISK. One of the conditions is to maintain OSTA (Optical Storage Technology Association) compliance. To do that, they must place data in a predictable predetermined manner on the disk, with proper descriptors for where to find volumes and partitions on the Disk.

MS, and Smart Storage, Inc may not be producing these disks in compliance with current ECMA-267 or 268 standards. It would appear that MS has moved descriptors, or has chosen not to place some of them in the predetermined locations (or has encrypted some of them). From what little I understand, that is a violation of the OSTA Guidlines for compliance, which in turn would violate the guidlines of the DVD specifcations.

To be OSTA complaint, all of the descriptor and pointers need to be compliant. This doesn't appear to be the case, at least not on the test DVD used. The Data volume we can view on the PC is clearly defines, and volume and logical block descriptors in place. Attempting to view the rest of the disc doesn't work. OSTA compliance requires that a disk to be compliant, must provide the descriptors necessary for the disk to be read on units that carry the DVD tag.

MS may well be using the TERM DVD on it's media improperly! XBOX disks only read partially on PCs.

I guess what I'm getting at is MS DVD's do'nt fit the spec, and as such SHOULD be called something else entirely. Would love to see MS backpedal on this one

Seem just like what happened in the last year with CD in the Music industry. They carry the CD name and logo, but are out of spec, and not fully complaince.. the result being some of those anti-piracy CD's wouldn't play in compliant CD players.

'nuff ranting... I tired myself out.

oops.. forgot to mention... every single XBOX disk states "OSTA UDF Compliant"

They do ? Where ?

I just picked up a copy of Halo and examined closely.... Nowhere on the box OR on the disc is the word "DVD", let alone any compliancy info.

Seems to me that MS are already not calling them DVDs.

Fire up a track reader.. or an HEX EDITOR... In Plain TEXT you can see alot of things.

oops

Ah, I see. Well, the part that you can read probably is compliant

QUOTE

Well, the part that you can read probably is compliant

Yup.. and that's the problem.

Compliance allows for DATA to be encrypted, etc. But complaince still requires that the disk be READABLE! This is where it falls short.

Hi there i really havent looked into the Process At all im just throwing an idea out there.... A while back i was ripping DVD videos (i own) onto my computer using a dvd Riping Program... the program asked me to first start up a Dvd Player Program like "Power DVD" first, to unlock the disk and make it "completely readable"......would the same thing work here Using the supposed "Xbox Emulator"...... i havent tried using the Emulator either..... well theres an idea to work from.... or maby someone could Reverse engineer the Xbox Emulator and Make a Burning Program........ there is my two cents...... Good Luck all Hope we all beat MS!!!

-If you put your two cents in and its a penny for your thoughts....where dose the other penny go

Now for my 1 cent, i have a half modded Samsung 616F drive with the 605B firmware that i used to back up my games i baught years ago, before the dam (hit)son drive died. Well i tryed putting the modded drive with a xbox disk preloaded into my pc, (running windows 98, ill try on xp later to see if it makes a diffrence) and i could only see the "dvd" files. If i use the drive the same way in my xbox, it works. I am trying to figure out what it could be. I plan to hook up the xbox orginal dvd drive, if i had one that works, to my pc like this: The ide cable will go to the xbox dvd drive lol. (no i am not much of a noob). I will get a long ide to keep my xbox next to the pc case. Then i will use an extention cord to power the xbox next to the computer in order to power the drive . And i think with the yellow cable saying theres an xbox game in the drive, when the ide cable talks with the PC it might read the data. I know at that point, we might as well stick with the xbox apps that will rip DVD to hdd like dvd2xbox, but this could help me try and figure something else. I also figure i can get the firmware on the drives and see if i can work a way to make any pc dvd drive read xbox games. thats my 1 cent. Also my 616F drive, i did not have to turn the motor around, let alone open it. I used a pc powersupply for power to the dvd drive. and to put cds in and out, i used a paper clip with the emergency eject button. I only own 9 games. So it did well to back them up.