God's Existence?, The neverending question Options

[lostboyz]

good post sicknasty

I have plenty of these conversations with my religious friend. I respect him because he grew up in a very poor situation and chose to be religious, it makes him happy and he returns it by teaching youth groups. The conversations are great because its basically bouncing opinions and viewpoints off of each other rather then trying to win an argument. It basically just proves how personal the whole belief system is. It truly does not matter what you believe in as long as it helps you live your life in a morally sane way.

I had the question to my mother of why she was catholic, whether or not it is because she was brought up that way, this was probably about when I was in 5th grade. Since then I have been analyzing my life to explain my own existence. I still go to church out of respect of my mother (when I am home) but I am not catholic even though coming from a strict catholic family and going to a catholic school from 1st to 8th grade.

There is absolutely no way you are going to prove if god does or doesn't exist, and truly it does not matter. You should never live your life based on anothers faith. In most cases differences in faith should have nothing to do with how two people interact if both practice what they believe. Other then scientology I believe all major faith based systems have a structure to promote moral teachings and strong communities, although get twisted and political on certain topics. I am a firm believer of separation of church and state.

[stiletto]

I agree with lostboyz, and while I won't say debating whether or not god exists is a waste of time (I think it is a rather entertaining hobby) what does it matter really? If you found out tomorrow that there is or is not a god would it change the way you live? Why do you do the things that you do, what are your principles grounded in? If I didnt agree with a god that was presented to me, even with concrete evidence, I wouldn't change, blessing of free will. Heaven with him/her would be like hell anyways.

[hamwbone]

sicknasty, didnt want to say this in my first post, but i must now. your dad should keep voicing his opinions. its is a good thing. a war has 2 fronts. when some one is knocking down your front door, invading your rights you cant agree to disagree. you must attack and defend, or the opposittion will soon rule you. you must belive in your own freedoms, and do what you can to keep them. Props to your Pops. The bystander will be forgotten.

[lostboyz]

as much as I hate preachers, if your beliefs (or lack there of) are strong, nothing should change you. I do not understand the hate to those that try to convert, they are people just like everyone else.

like I said earlier your faith should not draw a line in the sand on people that you interact with.

[pug_ster]

The bible is probably the most abused text out there. In the 1700-1800's white men used the bible to interpret that slavery was just and black people will go to heaven if they obey. And somewhere in the bible says that women have to obey men. It has a bunch of mumbo jumbo written in Latin and these philosophers interpret these cryptic texts in their own way.

This post has been edited by pug_ster: Mar 3 2008, 05:43 PM

[throwingks]

Now to address other things-

The Big Bang- I believe it. There's evidence supporting it and there's no evidence -not- supporting it. I get taught it at school.. and I've always felt, why would they teach something at school that isn't true? I mean, sure, we as society, don't know all about it, but does that mean it's not true? Just because we don't know where the matter came from doesn't mean we should automatically attach it some deity or dismiss the theory all together. It's a work-in-progress.

There are things about the big bang that dont make sense using math as we know it. For example, the outermost stars seem to be accelerating.

Evolution- I believe it. There's evidence supporting it and there's no evidence -not- supporting it. I get taught it at school.. and I've always felt, why would they teach something at school that isn't true? To me, it just makes PERFECT sense. Geographical situations and various climates have caused species to physically (and mentally I suppose) adapt to their environment to better their chance of survival. Those who did survive, live on to reproduce; those who don't, die. How does that NOT make sense!? I just don't understand.

There is evidence that not enough time has passed for humans to evolve from primordial ooze. There are also missing links in the chain from ooze to humans. Maybe aliens merged their DNA with Neanderthals? Look into Raelism. They say that Gods from the Heavens is literal.

Morals- I don't know about anyone else, but I feel that others believe I'm immoral just because I don't believe in God/have a religion. Do morals really come from religion? I believe they can.. but it's not a necessity. I believe it's one's own decision what they think is right and wrong. I think that's what makes them who they are; it's what makes them an individual.

I agree with you. Morals can come from religion, but more times than not, morals come from the people that raise you. Parents, coaches, teachers, etc.

Gay Rights- This one pisses me off to the fullest extent. Christians seem to think homosexuality is wrong and that they can stop it, cure it, keep them from getting married, etc. It's prejudice! They're clearly keeping a group of people from doing what all other people are allowed to do. I strongly believe gays and lesbians should be able to marry; if they wanna suffer just like every other married couple, let 'em be!

It is disappointing to me that you believe married people suffer. Studies have shown the opposite. Even if a marriage ends in divorce, usually there were many happier times that preceded that. I also believe a marriage does not need to be recognized by the church to be a marriage. I have been with my wife 12 years now, but only married for 3. If situations were different, we would have been married sooner. I have also seen couple together for way many more years than that, that never got "married". Gays, heteros, whoever should be able to marry whomever they want, or be partnered with whomever they want.

This post has been edited by throwingks: Mar 3 2008, 06:54 PM

[throwingks]

---Here's an argument I've had with my super Christian (pseudo) girlfriend-
her: "It's wrong"
me: "You realize that's prejudice right?"
her: "No it's not. It's wrong."
me: "Okay, WHY is it wrong?"
her: "Because!"
me: "Because isn't a proper response."
her: ::eventually refers to some story from the bible::
me: "Wow, so God is prejudice!?!"
her: ::silent::
::awkward silence::

Hopefully, you can continue to educate each other and grow together.

Dinosaurs- Don't Christians deny the existence of dinosaurs or something? Or believe the Earth is only like 1000 years old, thus dinosaurs couldn't possibly have existed millions and millions of years ago? I don't know. Perhaps I need a little more insight to this one. But regardless, denying scientific evidence that dates dinosaurs back to millions of years ago just seems idiotic to me. lol

no idea

-I tend to put my "faith" in math. "Math?" you say. Yes. I believe I can easily relate my beliefs to probability. Example: What is the probability that Creationism is true compared to that of Evolution? In my mind, although I lack sufficient numbers, it is MUCH more likely that evolution got us where we are today. I wouldn't say Creationism is impossible, because I don't believe anything is impossible. Like, walking through a wall. What are the chances of that? Probably 59823475983274x10^5 to 1.. but that's just it.. it's simply improbable. And that's how I feel about Creationism.

You would like a book I have called "The Laws of Thought" by George Boole.
http://www.amazon.com/Investigation-Laws-T...e/dp/0486600289
PM me if you want it.

I'd like to thank those who have taken the time to read my extremely long response and to those who plan on criticizing my points in a very mature, adult-like manner.

Edit: I made 2 posts so that the quotes didnt break because of the quantity.

This post has been edited by throwingks: Mar 3 2008, 06:51 PM

[sicknasty413]

There are things about the big bang that dont make sense using math as we know it. For example, the outermost stars seem to be accelerating.

... SEEM? Does that mean they're not sure if they are or not? And I'm not a big science major, so what does the acceleration of the outer stars conclude? Should they be decelerating? I guess that would kinda make sense. The initial explosion (the big bang itself) would be the point at which all matter is accelerating and at its highest velocity, and at some point, should start to decelerate, like after it reaches its terminal velocity. But do such things as terminal velocity occur in space? What would cause such matter to decelerate? Shouldn't matter just keep on accelerating if they abide by Newton's laws? Well, perhaps it -should- keep a constant velocity, and not necessarily a constant acceleration. Idk! I'm just rambling now. lol

There is evidence that not enough time has passed for humans to evolve from primordial ooze. There are also missing links in the chain from ooze to humans. Maybe aliens merged their DNA with Neanderthals? Look into Raelism. They say that Gods from the Heavens is literal.

Again, no scientist, so Idk. And aliens? I suppose it's possible. lol.

It is disappointing to me that you believe married people suffer. Studies have shown the opposite. Even if a marriage ends in divorce, usually there were many happier times that preceded that. I also believe a marriage does not need to be recognized by the church to be a marriage. I have been with my wife 12 years now, but only married for 3. If situations were different, we would have been married sooner. I have also seen couple together for way many more years than that, that never got "married". Gays, heteros, whoever should be able to marry whomever they want, or be partnered with whomever they want.

I was just kidding about married people suffering. It was actually in reference to a joke done by a comedian. I personally cannot wait to get married. I think it's going to be awesome... you know.. besides the whole "no sex with other people thing." Yeah.. that'll put a drag on things. lol

Hopefully, you can continue to educate each other and grow together.

.. she's so stubborn. lol

You would like a book I have called "The Laws of Thought" by George Boole.
http://www.amazon.com/Investigation-Laws-T...e/dp/0486600289
PM me if you want it.

Hmm.. very rarely do I read, but perhaps I'll take a gander. lol

[gatorayde]

I don't beleive in anything specific, but I am baptized and did go to a private (christian) school for 7 years... ehh

I don't see how anyone can be atheist TBH, because sure, maybe we did come from monkeys and sure, maybe our planets and existence all exploded from a set amount of gases... but where did that all come from? Where did outer space come from? It all has to have some sort of start, so I just think that it's too obvious that we can't create ourselves here, nor can hydrogen create mercury, like gold can't creat, silver, etc etc (JUST examples before someone flips shit about it).

IDK what or who made our planets and our existence, but I would have to say that it didn't just "appear" out of no where to explode, then make single celled organisms, all the way up to humans. However we came about, it definitely had some sort of help from a god of some sort, thats my belief. What happens when we die still confuses the hell outta me and Ill figure that out when I die I guess.


Summed up, is there a god? In my personal opinion, Yes. I don't see how anyone can deny that. Who or what is god? Who knows, but at some point in our lives (or afterlife) we shall find out. That is what I personally believe in.

All in all, who cares? Why not live your life not having to fear what's beyond this world or how we got here or where we will go, or who we must obey to get into heaven or whatever you believe in. Ignorance is bliss

Let me also say, that I myself, nor anyone (except maybe god himself) can prove that he exists or doesn't. However, I think that common sense would tell you that some kind of invisible existence beyond our universe would exist.

This post has been edited by gatorayde: Mar 3 2008, 11:37 PM

[hamwbone]

kinda of a wierd post about me, just because infinty is a confusing number to you ( no offense, i get sick when i think about it! lol) dont tell me there is a good. not everything has to have a starting point. its sickening to thing about, but everything could have always been here in some form. i support the notion that the universe is a breathing entity. expanding, then rebounding and contring to a supper massive small dot, the explodling a gain. and there could be infinity universes out there. its so much more comfortable to say a god created some starting point. but who created that god then? if god always was and always will be according to the bible, why cant the universe be always and forever be here. the universe is a violent and crazy place, kinda like... well earth.

[lostboyz]

Either way I am stoked for the apocalypse

[StrictPuppet]

Either way I am stoked for the apocalypse

Hellz ya....bring it...

[sicknasty413]

@gatorayde- If you're referring to what created "matter" as a "God", then I suppose there IS one. But would I "consider" it a "God" myself? Not particularly, nor would I worship it like any type of religion. But what created matter could easily be.. say.. anti-matter! Now if that was possible in anyway, would "anti-matter" be a "God?" Technically, I suppose. But it doesn't seem like a Christian's ideal "God", one who leads, saves, performs miracles, etc.

@hamwbone- You bring up a good point. Infinity is quite the interesting number. But say you drew a line around a cylinder.. a straight line.. with its end connected to its beginning.. creating basically a stripe. Assuming that there's no obvious point of start and end, would it be safe to say that the line infinitely continues? Simply going round and round in a circle? Not knowing where it started, nor where it ended? Well, the fact is, that line HAD to start somewhere, I know because I drew it (or had you drew it. lol). Although NOW it's infinitely circling that cylinder, there was a point at which is had to begin. Just because the universe may now infinitely be repeating itself, it's pretty safe to say it had to start somewhere.

...But, who am I to say? I simply a loser teenager with nothing better to do in his life but criticize.. everything. lol

@lostboyz and StrictPuppet- hahahaha.. yeah.. that'll be fun. lol

[crackfeen]

in this argument i'll assume the role of a scientist if i may
Big Bang- like most people say that there is a lot of evidence to support it... where did the energy come from to start it all.. questionable.. i don't really want to go into it because it involves too many open ends.. NOW...
the outer planets are accelerating because gravity is proportional to 1/R where R is the center of mass... so the further you get away from your source, the less you're gonna be feeling the gravity.. as far as acceleration goes, there are 2 possible explanations that i can put out off the top of my head.. one (more likely) it's merely centrific acceleration which pretty much spins the universe outwards. we know that the universe is rotating.. so that's a reasonable assumption.
and the second again, lack of gravity as you move away, but they're not necessarily accelerating but more reducing the rate of their deceleration... (2nd derivative of speed positive)

I just think that it's too obvious that we can't create ourselves here, nor can hydrogen create mercury, like gold can't creat, silver, etc etc

hydrogen in fact CAN create mercury and amazingly enough gold can create silver and vice versa it just requires a bunch of work to get the reaction started but it is possible... in fact if you look at a dying star.. you get just that

EVOLUTION
as far as evolution goes, i don't think anyone can rightfully doubt the theory of evolution... whether it happened on earth or it came by meteor or any other random processes that resulted in life again it doesn't matter.. if you want proof of evolution you don't have to go far.. just look in the mirror and tell me are you the same as your parents? are you exactly the same or a collection of random mutations.. sometimes those mutations are just more severe than others...
furthermore.. there are what... 5billion people on the planet right now? we're really a minority.. the lower down the food chain you go, the higher the numbers are of that particular species.. so there's more opportunity for those mutations to occur simply because there is more to pick from.


as far as the story goes about that kid and the "science" teacher.. oh man.. so many logical fallacies...
first of all.. a teacher would never put a student on the stand like that and no student would realistically talk to a teacher like that.. if you set that aside, i can pick flaws in their individual banter but that would take too long. instead let's go to the very end where the kid says that evil is the absence of god... that right there counters his point in a big way.. god by definition is omnipresent so in a way the kid made the worst statement he possibly could have.

people keep mentioning morals.. if anything, morals started religions... look at fables that tell a story with some kind of very important message... blah blah blah.. moral of the story.. don't kill... be good to your friends and neighbors... some other very important message... then let's put all these fables together and give the big book a name. sound familiar? if not let me ask you guys.. who wrote the bible? was it god? if it was, then why would we even have this argument... no it was people, and people tend to embellish stories to make them more effective. Moral of the story, morals exist outside of religion.. they are defined by society, or if you wanna bring philosophers into it, the social contract (hobbes or locke i dont' remember)

now.. religion on homosexuality... "and his spunk hit the floor and his sin was great" that is about as much as religion says about the evils of homosexuality... and as much as that is open to interpretation, the interpretation that is most used is that any sperm ejected that's not looking to produce a baby is sinful.. thus instilling that male homosexuality is wrong, male masturbation is wrong, and wet dreams are wrong.. which brings me to my next question why do we not allow women to marry? perhaps because of equal rights? not sure

i'm sure there are lots of things left out.. but i feel like i've made a contribution... always welcome any criticism (constructive or otherwise)

[gatorayde]

lemme rephrase in a nutshell what I said.... I beleive something, whether it be a god, a flying dragon or a sea otter, had to create whatever we are currently living in (ie: a breathing universe like hambone stated). IDK what you'd call that sort of a "creator", but Id say its pretty damn close to a god (not limited to jesus, God, allah, etc etc etc).

@hambone

how so? Did adam and eve (just an example people!) pop up, on an also spontaneously created Earth? Last time I checked my head I don't recall anything spontaneously creating itself

TBH, I spent quite a few hours reading up on "the god of god" subject and Im still baffled. I don't see how god, also, just sprouted up out of the clouds and said "heyyy lets makes some peoples n planets n stuff" but then again if god is real, he is a god and all

@crackfeen

So gold can create silver (thinking back to chem...), but where did the gold come from in the first place? Hydrogen, mercury, etc etc?

The plain ol' fact of religion is that there is no evidence to support or disprove whatever the hell we read in a 2000 year old book. We all find a blind faith religion (other than atheism or a handful of others), stick with it, live by the rules, and hope we all go to a better place which is why the religion pissing match will never be won

This post has been edited by gatorayde: Mar 4 2008, 02:37 AM