Re-flowing Gpu's -post- What Does The Gpu Know? Options

[Masonice]

Re-Flowing GPU's -POST- what does the gpu know?

I would like to talk about 3 things in this post, and would like to have responses from people who feel they are very knowledgeable with the understandings of computers.

I would like to talk about the definition of Re-flowing,
and the cause of 3 RROD, and if there are different types of 3 RROD that you can detect by using the color code system.

Next POST, when dealing with computers, POST stands for Power On Self test, when you start a computer, there are a couple of things it does before it loads say windows, basically just checks basic hardware stuff, checks keyboard, spins up the harddrive, cdroms, etc.
So what is the POST process for the xbox 360?

Next is What does the GPU/CPU know?

My definition of the xbox 360, its red light errors and the way it works is this:

When the xbox turns on, it turns on the dvd player, checks for video connection cable(4 lights)
Then it does another check.
I Believe that either the cpu or gpu, has some kind of internal temperature sensing device,
that shuts off the processor when it senses a certain unsafe temperature, to prevent further damage.
Thus creating red light errors to tell you about the problem, - cute lil device idnt it?-
So say for 3 red lights its telling you, that there is a basic temperature problem that its finding when
going through the POST. So you go through, clean off the glue, put on new glue.
Then you re-flow the processors, to basically reset that internal temperature switch, to tell the processor,
hey, its ok now, you can turn on. thats pretty much my definition for re-flowing the gpu,
applying heat, to reset the switch.

So Basically There are 3 - Re-Flowing methods that I have tried and succesfully fixed xbox's with.
I am fully aware that some people will tell me that this is the wrong way, or this is dangerous,
but thats the point of this post, is to understand the re-flowing process, not just how to do it.
But what physical digital effect does it have on the hardware, and how to further diagnose these issues.

1. Letting the GPU OverHeat (2 red lights) (Natural Method)
this involves, simply unplugging the fan, and starting the xbox, 3 red lights, will blink,
after 10 minutes goes by it will overheat. shut it off let it cool, naturally, over night.
come back turn it on, hey it worx now.

2. Letting the gpu over heat for 1.5 minutes, let the 3 rings run with fan off, for 1.5 minutes.
turn off, let cool, hey xbox worx now.

3. removing, and cleaning heatsinks, cleaning cpus, blast both sides of the cpu n gpu, on medium heat,
while moving the heat gun constantly. let it cool, put it back together, hey it all works again.

method 2 is the most taught i believe.

What does the gpu know?
I am starting to think that second little guy by the gpu is the temperature sensor.
and while somehow they trigger eachother, when the xbox starts up, the main board,
first talks to the temperature sensor, if the temperature sensor last registered an overheat,
it 1 doesnt let the cpu turn on, and 2, lets the gpu continue to run anyway.


Case 1: I have a couple of 3 red lights that i havent been able to fix, and its ez to say, oh welp its fried,
switch out the board. but, i wanna know for sure. I did a fix tonight, that started out E-74,
heated her up with my gun, then i got 3 red lights, im starting to think somethings fried,
cant be fixed. 1st took it apart, cleaned, heated up with gun, then xclamp fix on cpu n gpu,
then 3 red lights, then i let it naturally overheat. let it cool, turn on, 3 red again.

Case 2: then i have another one where it will not overheat naturally, heat up all day long, and wont give me 2 red lights, just stays at 3, wtf is up with that? im so frusterated with xboxs right now heh.

My next move for both of these is to just switch out the boards, i hate it when shit doesnt work the way its sposed to.

~Chad

[Maximize]

okay first off what is your nationality, or natural language?

the way you speak or type, suggests ESL

but back to the question, do we know what tells the 360 there is a problem is it
a failure for the gpu to complete tasks or is it simple break in flow "like no ground"

[Masonice]

i think im gonna try cooking the whole board over my stove top, support by either a pot, or 4 metal objects, to create less stain points on the board, and an even heating, i thought about in oven, no, i thought about hoisting the board above the heat with hooks n strings, on the 4 corners, but that might warp the board

[Sic Of Life]

If you're going to cook it over the stove, I suggest you put it in a skillet, since the 360's center of gravity is... well... in the center, which would cause warping. The oven is your best bet still, but to cook it on the stove, put it in a skillet with the handle facing away from you so you don't bump it and mess everything up. About a minute and a half later, crack open an egg and put it on your 360 (just kidding don't do this lol). But after about a minute and a half turn off the stove. And I know that stoves are hot enough to reflow because I use my stove to remove leds off of old phones (free ROL leds plz?). Just don't leave it on too long or you will start to burn the mobo (smells pretty good though )

If you're going to cook it over the stove, I suggest you put it in a skillet, since the 360's center of gravity is... well... in the center, which would cause warping. The oven is your best bet still, but to cook it on the stove, put it in a skillet with the handle facing away from you so you don't bump it and mess everything up. About a minute and a half later, crack open an egg and put it on your 360 (just kidding don't do this lol). But after about a minute and a half turn off the stove. And I know that stoves are hot enough to reflow because I use my stove to remove leds off of old phones (free ROL leds plz?). Just don't leave it on too long or you will start to burn the mobo (smells pretty good though )

[Millerboy3]

If you're going to cook it over the stove, I suggest you put it in a skillet, since the 360's center of gravity is... well... in the center, which would cause warping. The oven is your best bet still, but to cook it on the stove, put it in a skillet with the handle facing away from you so you don't bump it and mess everything up. About a minute and a half later, crack open an egg and put it on your 360 (just kidding don't do this lol). But after about a minute and a half turn off the stove. And I know that stoves are hot enough to reflow because I use my stove to remove leds off of old phones (free ROL leds plz?). Just don't leave it on too long or you will start to burn the mobo (smells pretty good though )

nice double post. xD anyway how would that work? wouldnt that kill the caps?

[Masonice]

yea well, im glad you think this whole cooking thing is a joke, but its all the same principal man,

what do we want to do?

Reset solder joints, Solution, apply heat.

ya know i think i might put it in the oven, on a low heat, the more i think about it, maybe 250 degrees,
no protection.
with the door open, cuz the oven racks, just provide such a good support.

im not gonna put some stupid sweater around it, thats the problem right there, that creates the smell,
i have a feeling 250 degrees with the door open would be plenty, 250 degrees, wont warp the board, and is very hot, but im wondering if i should consider some re-seating methods for the chips, like slap the heat sinks on em, and screw em down tight, so the cpu/ n gpu get a good connection to the board

This post has been edited by Masonice: Feb 16 2009, 08:42 AM

[Millerboy3]

yea well, im glad you think this whole cooking thing is a joke, but its all the same principal man,

what do we want to do?

Reset solder joints, Solution, apply heat.

ya know i think i might put it in the oven, on a low heat, the more i think about it, maybe 250 degrees,
no protection.
with the door open, cuz the oven racks, just provide such a good support.

im not gonna put some stupid sweater around it, thats the problem right there, that creates the smell,
i have a feeling 250 degrees with the door open would be plenty, 250 degrees, wont warp the board, and is very hot, but im wondering if i should consider some re-seating methods for the chips, like slap the heat sinks on em, and screw em down tight, so the cpu/ n gpu get a good connection to the board

no disrespect but i was serious. how does that work without ruining the board? i use a heatgun because i know how to use it. the oven i dont know how to use and doubt anyone in the house would be happy i used it.

[larsenmash]

are you people really serious about putting them in the oven and on the stove? like seriously? Go buy a god damn heat gun

[Masonice]

uhhhh we have heat guns.
doesnt always do the job.

[YoungGeekGuy]

I wrapped a friends board in anti static bags, then in tinfoil, than sweater. I threw it in the over at 500F. I rested it on top of the 360 metal housing, up so it was open underneath. The sweater provides even enough support if you wrap that sucker good. And the proof is in the pudding so here, I'm sure you don't need the explanation of why it works at the end though lol: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X5AZMcGwbW8

[Masonice]

no disrespect but i was serious. how does that work without ruining the board? i use a heatgun because i know how to use it. the oven i dont know how to use and doubt anyone in the house would be happy i used it.

look up 360 oven fix on youtube. it basically applies an even heat acrossed the entire board.
when your using the heat gun, your applying heat to one area. and sometimes it fixes it, sometimes not.
when it doesnt, what do you do? THINK EXTREME a heat gun, in combination with handling the board, may provide hot and cold spots in the solder. but not an oven, your get smooth even, heat all acrossed.
Ever heard of a re-flow machine? Guess what its pretty similar too? An oven.

[Chancer]

1. It won't work
2. Putting electronic equipment in ovens and heating stuff like capacitors full of electrolyte to ridiculous temperatures will kill loads of components.
3. A BGA rework station is nothing like sticking the main board in an oven.
4. You don't need any computer knowledge to perform such a bodge, quite the reverse actually.
5. MB3 is correct
6. It still won't work

[larsenmash]

Umm.. I could be wrong but don't reflow machines use liquid to reflow solder joints? If they are as I think they are, then they are nothing like an oven, the only thing in common would be the heat. Thats like comparing my coffee pot to an oven. so should I use my coffee pot to fix my xbox?

[Vauxfan]

Oven reflow works wonders, the 2 Xboxes in my sig get used daily and HARD.

Neither of them have loud fans (both on stock fan voltages) Don't freeze or anything.

I dont like heatgun reflows because it doesn't heat the board up equally and I've had more luck with doing it in an oven

I've got another RROD xbox coming so hopefully that will be another to add to the list.

This post has been edited by Vauxfan: Feb 16 2009, 06:41 PM