BBC Watchdog about Xbox 360 disc scratching Options

[Tyrannical]

http://www.llamma.com/xbox360/news/Xbox-36...c-Scratched.htm

Full detail and explanantion on the problem. Oh, and the article is dated 2005.

[Chancer]

Your right it's not difficult. But what about that friend of mine who's Fifa 09 is scratched? You see, he wasn't "armed with the cause", cause he didn't know.

Didn't you tell him when he bought his machine. You have had the issues. The issue has been raised many times in the last 3 years.

I myself had all my 360's on a secure shelf, away from everything else. I also have never subjected any of these xbox's to heavy vibration or movement during play. So why did my discs get scratched?

Not being present or seeing your set up I could not possibly say.
perhaps that is part of the problem for MS. If they admit to this as an issue, everyone will be sending in their knackered discs even if they have caused a problem themselves. The logical step would be for MS to take in your console and teat it themselves. if they can not replicate the problem then the fault lies elsewhere.
If this was design issue then everyone with design XX would have disc scratching...but they don't so there has to be a set of circumstances that occur on these machines.
Don't forget the machines tested by watchdog, that had been scratching discs at the owners homes, did not scratch discs when tested on a stable surface by watchdog. that in itself says something about the cause.

[rscarrab]

If this was design issue then everyone with design XX would have disc scratching...but they don't so there has to be a set of circumstances that occur on these machines.

If an xbox DOES NOT scratch discs on my shelf in the horizontal position but DOES in the vertical position, than that my friend, is a design flaw.
Unless the shelf is made out of mud and sticks there should be consideration for further testing on surfaces that distrubute weight throughout itself differently.

the machines tested by watchdog, that had been scratching discs at the owners homes, did not scratch discs when tested on a stable surface by watchdog. that in itself says something about the cause.

Watchdog using Rockband & Guitar Hero does the study no justice what-so-ever.
Jumping around the place like a twat with one of those guitars isn´t the cause.

Using COD4 or GTA4 (or a game that is constantly very DVD intensive, like GTA4´s constant streaming of textures to fill the game environment for example) would push a greater amount of stress onto the DVD drive, which you want.

Didn't you tell him when he bought his machine. You have had the issues. The issue has been raised many times in the last 3 years.

My mate just wasn´t convinced that such an issue could happen to him. He only bought his console for Fifa 09 which he plays online a few nights a week. Since, at the time, I wasn´t completely sure that the vertical position was exclusively the cause, i recommended that he do a HDD install to prevent the possibility of random disc scratching, which i thought could happen regardless of the position. He chose not to take my advice either cause he wasn´t convinced or that he just didn´t care enough due to his overall comparibly low xbox360 usage. Suffice to say he´s convinced now.

Not being present or seeing your set up I could not possibly say.
perhaps that is part of the problem for MS. If they admit to this as an issue, everyone will be sending in their knackered discs even if they have caused a problem themselves. The logical step would be for MS to take in your console and teat it themselves. if they can not replicate the problem then the fault lies elsewhere.

Never before have i had to factor in the surface at which a console lies in such scrutiny. Its absolute madness.
Since i built the shelf myself than im sure it´s stable but with a vertically placed console atop it I seriously question how stable the console (not the shelf) remains throughout a long gaming session.

A warning or proper documentation addressing this issue would give someone like my mate enough reason to consider placing his xbox360 in a horizontal position. Its not difficult.

[Chancer]

If an xbox DOES NOT scratch discs on my shelf in the horizontal position but DOES in the vertical position, than that my friend, is a design flaw.

No that is an unstable shelf. A vertical unit is more likely to be affected by surrounding vibration. The PS2 was exactly the same. Beats me if you know your issue with scratching happens when the box is vertical why you would not just run it horizontal

Watchdog using Rockband & Guitar Hero does the study no justice what-so-ever.
Jumping around the place like a twat with one of those guitars isn´t the cause.

Not sure why you quoted that. It clearly is the problem. The vibration test proved that.

Using COD4 or GTA4 (or a game that is constantly very DVD intensive, like GTA4´s constant streaming of textures to fill the game environment for example) would push a greater amount of stress onto the DVD drive, which you want.

Not really. More movement of the sled when reading discs does not cause contact with the disc. The disc would have to move in a vertically opposed direction. Doesn't happen simply because the sled moves around quicker. The disc is still rotating at the same rate.

My mate just wasn´t convinced that such an issue could happen to him. He only bought his console for Fifa 09 which he plays online a few nights a week. Since, at the time, I wasn´t completely sure that the vertical position was exclusively the cause, i recommended that he do a HDD install to prevent the possibility of random disc scratching, which i thought could happen regardless of the position. He chose not to take my advice either cause he wasn´t convinced or that he just didn´t care enough due to his overall comparibly low xbox360 usage. Suffice to say he´s convinced now.

I thought you said your mate was not aware of the cause. Oh and I play Fifa all the time on one of my consoles and no issues which immediately calls into question your "Some games show the problem" theory

Never before have i had to factor in the surface at which a console lies in such scrutiny. Its absolute madness.
Since i built the shelf myself than im sure it´s stable but with a vertically placed console atop it I seriously question how stable the console (not the shelf) remains throughout a long gaming session.

You previously were saying that jumping around isn't the cause. Vertical or horizontal the cause is outside vibration. The tests had the console Horizontal anyway.

A warning or proper documentation addressing this issue would give someone like my mate enough reason to consider placing his xbox360 in a horizontal position. Its not difficult.

You said you warned him of a problem and he didn't listen to you. People don't listen and they don't read the instructions for stuff, but it is plain common sense that an object sat on it's largest surface is going to be less susceptible to outside disturbance and shock than on a much narrower surface area

[rscarrab]

-I have it horizontal now, i was referring to before i believed that vertical was a big factor. I didn't have enough space on my shelf, unless it was vertical. I had to remove my wii (no big loss) in order to have it horizontal. Now it is. Please, stop nit-picking.

-My mate was aware but he wasn't "armed with the cause". By saying he didn't know... i meant he wasn't aware of the importance. The context in which i used "armed with the cause", referred to the information discussed in this thread by myself and some others. When you originally said " armed with the cause" i presumed you were referring to my rant which explains my reasons for believing there to be a genuine issue and the steps to take to avoid the scratches. By saying he didn't know was the same as saying he wasn't aware of what was discussed on this thread nor did he have my updated opinion.

-You would be one of those that HASN'T experienced the issue, so with that being said, you couldn't possibly believe that your console is to blame. Your attitude is; "They must be doing something wrong".

-I quoted that because of what i said earlier;

"I don't think its a subwoofer, book, door or vibrations made while jumping that is the problem. Though each in their extreme could likely cause damage, I believe the reason this needs attention is because it can STILL happen if you remove those variables."

As i said each in their extreme could cause that, but im trying not to dilute the argument by taking silly variables into account as i firmly believe "...it can STILL happen if you remove those variables"

-"Not really"? Well that's your opinion, which of course, your entitled to.
But it is one that i completely disagree with. Just as you have put out your theory about the DVD drives sled; I myself have put out my own theory about how the xbox can be in a top heavy, vertical position which during the continuous DVD spin can cause said vibrations hence degradation to discs over time.

-Again, i don't believe the problem is outside vibration. Thats like a detective following a cold lead. Its a dead end, it leads no-where. If the tests were conducted in the horizontal position than there is most definitely reason to believe that their test was further flawed. The consoles should have been vertical during all the tests.

-My "some games show the problem" theory (which really deserves a better name ) is very sound. I have explained that some people had this issue and some don't. It is a fact that a lot of people have had their COD4 discs chewed up as opposed to other games played just as much. That is a fact because i know a good few people who have had this problem including myself. There's no point in knocking it down to simple coincidence, it would serve no use other than to jam a stick in my spokes while im trying to prove my point.

"an object sat on it's largest surface is going to be less susceptible to outside disturbance and shock than on a much narrower surface area"

If it is common sense than why is it more common for an xbox360 to be rested vertically? Because it is advertised like that. It is the "serving suggestion" that many others follow when they take the xbox out and rest it on a surface.

This post has been edited by rscarrab: Mar 28 2009, 10:23 PM

[TheDiggler]

Bought a 360/Jasper during X-Mass. The 360 sits horizontal on a secure area and in a cool area of the living room, I read enough about what NOT to do. I have discs with circular scratches, my Left For Dead works but you can see the circular scratch above the center ring. Unfortunately my Halo 3 and GTA IV are goners. That's problem 1, yesterday for the first time I hooked up to X-Box live and downloaded the NXE. Wow, what a wonderful world of complete instability. I don't have an HD but the upgrade appeared to go smoothly but playing games now creates all kinds of lockups, requiring a complete shutdown. Reset the Cache and rebuilt a new profile with no luck, just lock-ups randomly while playing.

I purposely waited to migrate to the 360, I knew the first year would be plagued with hardware issues, I guess I should have waited a bit longer. What really amazes me is the amount of problems, just google and you will find armies of people screaming.

So this week I will call MS and play their silly games to get my problem resolved. I will however NOT buy any new games and I sure as F*CK not going to do what a lot of others end up doing, going out and buying a new 360.

[Chancer]

I will respond to a couple of points as it is getting a bit boring for others most likely.

-You would be one of those that HASN'T experienced the issue, so with that being said, you couldn't possibly believe that your console is to blame. Your attitude is; "They must be doing something wrong".

My point is based on the tests seen on watchdog and also on previous tests and debate on this.

-"Not really"? Well that's your opinion, which of course, your entitled to.
But it is one that i completely disagree with. Just as you have put out your theory about the DVD drives sled; I myself have put out my own theory about how the xbox can be in a top heavy, vertical position which during the continuous DVD spin can cause said vibrations hence degradation to discs over time.

The operation of DVD drives, and the sled is not theory. It's qualified , practical knowledge

-Again, i don't believe the problem is outside vibration. Thats like a detective following a cold lead. Its a dead end, it leads no-where. If the tests were conducted in the horizontal position than there is most definitely reason to believe that their test was further flawed. The consoles should have been vertical during all the tests.

Have you watched the video? The test shows the problem caused by outside vibration in the horizontal position. I have no doubt it would have done it vertically. The young lad in the first practical example has his box horizontal...it scratched his discs. Watchdog ran it on a stable surface and it did not scratch his discs. It doesn't get any more plain than that.

"an object sat on it's largest surface is going to be less susceptible to outside disturbance and shock than on a much narrower surface area"

If it is common sense than why is it more common for an xbox360 to be rested vertically? Because it is advertised like that. It is the "serving suggestion" that many others follow when they take the xbox out and rest it on a surface.

How do you know? Let me guess your mates have it vertical. Your mates don't make up a majority of owners and do not prove it is more common for people to have their box vertically any more than it proves COD 4 is more susceptible to scratching.
My daughters is vertical and gets Rock band CoD 4, and multiple other games. I don't worry it will scratch discs.
Interesting debate but I haven't changed my opinion

This post has been edited by Chancer: Mar 29 2009, 11:22 PM

[rscarrab]

I've put my arguments forward to the best of my ability. Iam adamant that there is an issue and i would like to inform others about it; regardless of whether it coincides with your own logic or supposed professional opinion.

If its getting boring for some people than they can click back on their browser and choose not to read it. If that is your way of inadvertently saying it is getting boring than i can't see any further reason to have this discussion with you.

It sounds to me like your point is based on just watchdog. Nothing else.
As a matter of interest; what previous tests are you referring to? Link?

I agree that an outside vibration like the ones in the test CAN cause damage, i accepted that as a fact before you even mentioned it.
I also mentioned that the crux of my argument is that without these outside influences the damage can happen, in the vertical position, exclusively.

The operation of DVD drive's, and sled is not theory. Your right! Well done!

"More movement of the sled when reading discs does not cause contact with the disc. The disc would have to move in a vertically opposed direction."

That is a theory.

I never argued that the sled might move around quicker. I believe the rpm's that the disc is achieving is causing the whole xbox to vibrate ever so slightly , in the vertical position -->"when an Xbox 360 is tilted or swiveled -- even slightly -- while a game disc is in the ODD [Optical Disc Drive], ODD components can contact the game disc."

Vibrations plus the delicate nature of the DVD drive to begin with can cause the scratches to form over time, rather than simply a one nights sitting.

[Chancer]

I've put my arguments forward to the best of my ability. Iam adamant that there is an issue and i would like to inform others about it; regardless of whether it coincides with your own logic or supposed professional opinion.
It sounds to me like your point is based on just watchdog.

If you knew me you would know what it is based on

"More movement of the sled when reading discs does not cause contact with the disc. The disc would have to move in a vertically opposed direction."

That is a theory.

It's not theory. If the disc when spinning remains a perfectly horizontal plane there is no contact with the laser , the sled or anything. Imbalance of the disc (vibration or shock) causes the disc to move in a vertical plane. To wobble for want of a better word and can cause damage to the disc. I can reproduce it on test (albeit with domestic DVD equipment.

Check the position of the circular scratches on the disc and then check the position of the recessed lip in the tray. That is just speculation as I have no scratched discs to compare. Also check multiple discs for scratches in the same position. Best bet is to let MS find the exact problem by sending them the machine. If the machine has caused it and it is faulty then they will have to exchange the discs.

[rscarrab]

"If you knew me you would know what it is based on"

If you could provide me with the link to the other study, which i originally asked for, than i would know what it is based on.

[Chancer]

"If you knew me you would know what it is based on"

If you could provide me with the link to the other study, which i originally asked for, than i would know what it is based on.

I will dig out the original tests.
They are documented in a news post here. It rings bells that the testing was in Holland. The vid was all over the net. It was from a while back so may take some finding. The rubber pad fix was brought about after this first kick up over disc scratching

The sled info and DVd drive mech stuff is based on nobody else's findings but my own and the TSRs who work for the manufacturers that my business does Warranty work for.

[rscarrab]

I wait in eager anticipation.

Btw the scratches on my discs are in the middle (the distance between the hole in the disc to the outer edge; the middle of those two).

"http://dwl.xbox-scene.com/video/Xbox-360-Scratch-Disks3.wmv"

The scratches are NOT the same as the ones on this video. My scratches are in the middle (where i mentioned) and aren't as "squashed together" or are more widely distributed compared to the ones in the video link.

EDIT:
To add to that the scratches are a lot more subtle but still cause disc read errors.

This post has been edited by rscarrab: Mar 30 2009, 06:05 PM

[Chancer]

I wait in eager anticipation.

Can't find the link or the post in here. Google search and board tracker turn up too many results and I do have another life...However. It was a Dutch guy.
Some detail is here
http://www.afterdawn.com/news/archive/9963.cfm This goes back to June 2007. Follow the link to the news source and then the subsequent links, but it is possible the video that was about at the time is now a dead link.
I am surprised you haven't seen all these before. This one actually showed a demo of the problem happening. There is also a lawsuit from late 2007 with a PDF somewhere, but again not able to locate at present.
The general gist of it is you didn't really believe me about the problem being old news and other studies and findings on this, but it is actually reality.

This post has been edited by Chancer: Apr 1 2009, 06:58 PM

[rscarrab]

"The general gist of it is you didn't really believe me about the problem being old news and other studies and findings on this, but it is actually reality."

Gist of what? My posts in this topic?

My posts were in reference to the study discussed in this thread. As well as that i quoted supposed legal documents from an ongoing lawsuit against Microsoft that was reported by the Washington Post.

If you were going to argue against what i said --regardless of whether you feel this topic is old news or not-- and you've taken the time out to reply this much already, than i don't see why you couldn't have been a bit more thorough. Expecting me to take your word for something doesn't count for much in my book, i don't know you. As you said if i knew you I would know what it is based on.

All i wanted was for you to provide the information from these studies or give me a link. This would have been relevant with what i was talking about. I don't really care for proof that you were telling the truth per-say.

So you have proven that another study exists. I have checked the radio show link, as the only english on the kassa page is right next to it. It is in dutch as is the streaming video link (http://cgi.omroep.nl/cgi-bin/streams?/tv/vara/kassa/bb.20070414-live.asf?start=0:28:20.172&end=0:31:30.885). I watched the video and there wasn't one 360 (or disc) shown in the video and i couldn't understand a word they were saying. It looked to me like he was on the phone to Xbox360 customer support at the start of the vid... ???

You mentioned that you have read up on this study, yes? I'll have a look myself but unless i throw it into a translator and read it in dirty english than well... yeah, but since you have already seen this study can you shed some light on the variables? Was it vertical/horizontal or both? What games were used? etc.

PS
Do you speak Dutch?

This post has been edited by rscarrab: Apr 2 2009, 11:57 AM

[rscarrab]

"Luck has nothing to do with it, nor does the game title on the disc.
What it means is that I have the 360 on a secure isolated shelf. The box is not subject to heavy vibration or movement during play. The evidence even from watchdog tests is that is the box remains stable during play the scratching does not occur. For the scratching to occur you need to shock/jolt/vibrate/move the box."

The tests which you were referring to there were the watchdog tests. I understand that. Am i correct in saying that your main argument was that due to the results of this test and others (the kassa dutch one) you believe that it has to either do with the shelf that it is on or to put it simply a problem on the users end?

I had a look to try and find something about it (Kassa tests) in english and i came across this:
(http://www.cdfreaks.com/news/13225-Microsoft-admits-scratch-problem-with-Xbox-360.html)

"The Dutch television show Kassa, which deals with customer complaints, has been nagging Microsoft about this problem for several weeks, they did tests with Xbox360 setups and filmed (and proofed) that the Xbox360 is indeed responsible for scratching game discs, when not moved, placed on a stable table and under the best possible conditions."

I haven't found any video like you mentioned as of yet.
But to my understanding, this would give further weight to my argument. Would it not?

I argue that i believe the xbox360 is itself is scratching the discs, as i have stated numerous times.

Further down the article it reads;

"In a press statement the company [Microsoft] stated: "As we were not involved with the experiment of Kassa and have little insights in the testing methods, we are not able to respond in detail on the results. It is possible that scratches on discs originate from frequent use. However, we have no indication that the results of the tests from Kassa are a large scale problem."

Im trying to indicate that it is a large scale problem, as are many other people. Frequent use, which i quote from above, is exactly why i mention that it depends on the game.

Microsofts remedy to this is (written in the same statement):

"Of course it is important to us that our customers have the best possible game experience and therefore we take these test results very serious. Xbox owners who think their discs are scratched as reported by Kassa, should contact us. We will investigate the console and when needed repair it so it becomes a full functioning console. We will also inform Xbox owners how they can obtain replacements discs in case they require them."

Sending the console in should be the last option. They aren't really admitting anything or taking OTHER steps to ensure that the end user has to prepare themselves for whatever design flaws may occur. Nor do they admit liability for the discs that were scratched during the times that the end user didn't have a "full functioning console" upon purchase.

Until HDD's are released with all console packages there will be people who cant remedy this problem unless they send in their console for repair.