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> Red Lights = Design Flaw
dokworm
post Feb 23 2007, 04:55 AM
Post #1


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After reading some of the excellent detective work here re the red lights of death and going over the couple of dead consoles here with a microscope, I've come to the conclusion that in most cases the red lights of death is due to a simple design flaw, not to overheating or poor soldering.

We seem to be seeing consoles where the motherboard has flexed and a few of the solder balls or pads have given way at the corner of the CPU or GPU as pointed out by SMTRework and others.

Now why would a motherboard flex?

The answer is the heatsink clamp design.

If you look at the clamp design, *all* of the pressure to hold the heatsink down is in one tiny point. The centre of the X clamp has a plastic 'spacer button' that sits hard against the bottom of the motherboard and that causes all of the stress to push upwards (towards the bottom centre of both the GPU and the CPU.)

What is the reaction to that upward force? the corners of the motherboard flexing in the opposite direction.
Because the motherrboard is not screwed down to the chassis in the areas around the CPU and GPU the natural reaction is for the board to flex downwards slightly because of the pressure in the middle pushing upwards.

When the console gets hot, the solder balls may become slightly softer allowing the board to flex further and the break occurs.

Even if the soldering was perfect the poor design of the heatsink clamps means the corners of the CPU and GPU are going to be under tension.

So perhaps the fix would be to remove the clamps altogether, fit 'screw in' pegs to the chassis and screw down the motherboard and the heatsink so rather than tension being on the board to flex, it is actually encouraged to stay flat. The existing holes in the board where the clamp attached would be ideal.

So extra cooling and other measures may not do squat unless you remove the tension of the giant pimple trying to push up from the bottom.
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Posts in this topic
dokworm   Red Lights = Design Flaw   Feb 23 2007, 04:55 AM
oZKa   nice piece of info m8 B) all of this is so true, i...   Feb 23 2007, 05:00 AM
dokworm   Still going strong since chucking the crappy x cla...   Feb 26 2007, 11:58 AM
RBJTech   ah sorry mate - just posted a thread with an almos...   Feb 26 2007, 01:15 PM
dogdirt2000   After reading some of the excellent detective wor...   Feb 26 2007, 06:09 PM
dogdirt2000   as true as my post above is, i've just remembe...   Feb 26 2007, 06:57 PM
dokworm   The problem is that it is way beyond the tolerance...   Feb 28 2007, 08:17 AM
fahrenheit   With the weight of the CPU heatsink, I think it ne...   Feb 28 2007, 11:01 AM
dokworm   With the weight of the CPU heatsink, I think it n...   Mar 1 2007, 12:53 AM
Spawman1926   Please do post some pics cause I dont even know wh...   Feb 28 2007, 02:50 PM
Helliano   Please do post some pics cause I dont even know w...   Feb 28 2007, 06:16 PM
Elemino   I'm not discounting your theory or anything, j...   Mar 1 2007, 11:49 PM
dokworm   I'm not discounting your theory or anything, ...   Mar 2 2007, 05:32 AM
bojngles   this theory does sound interesting...   Mar 2 2007, 04:12 AM
fahrenheit   @Elemino - You have to factor in the quality of ...   Mar 2 2007, 06:27 AM
dokworm   @Elemino - You have to factor in the quality of...   Mar 4 2007, 06:05 AM
dokworm   I have ordered the talismoon replacement rear fans...   Mar 6 2007, 11:56 PM
dokworm   I have ordered the talismoon replacement rear fan...   Mar 8 2007, 10:39 PM
dokworm   I've started fixing other people's 360s us...   Mar 10 2007, 06:16 AM
steddyman   I'm not sure what you mean by using Pegs. I h...   Mar 10 2007, 01:48 PM
swdxr12   Hi, I have tried a similar method to yours (using ...   Mar 10 2007, 06:23 PM
dokworm   Hi, I have tried a similar method to yours (using...   Mar 11 2007, 01:35 AM
Kurto2021   Next 360 I fix I'll take some pictures, I wil...   Mar 14 2007, 02:36 AM
dokworm   while your "detailed" explanation isn...   Mar 14 2007, 02:57 AM
brywalker   The metal pegs from the existing heatsink just un...   Mar 14 2007, 03:24 AM
steddyman   If putting pegs under the four mount points of th...   Mar 17 2007, 10:02 PM
dokworm   How do you do this for the GPU heatsink? The ext...   Mar 20 2007, 04:16 AM
alucard_xs   Hi dudes, this debate seems interesting ;) please...   Mar 10 2007, 08:46 PM
steddyman   Thanks for the detailed explanation. I am still n...   Mar 11 2007, 05:37 PM
dokworm   I'd love to help but I am in Australia. I don...   Mar 11 2007, 11:04 PM
CaZpeR   My Xbox 360 just had the Three Red Rings (of death...   Mar 11 2007, 11:45 PM
dokworm   There is nothing odd about still being able to tur...   Mar 13 2007, 01:24 AM
brywalker   I haven't gotten the red lights yet, but I am ...   Mar 13 2007, 03:03 AM
dokworm   If you use the correct thread bolts then there is ...   Mar 13 2007, 01:03 PM
brywalker   If you use the correct thread bolts then there is...   Mar 13 2007, 03:54 PM
dokworm   I'm using pads like on the old athlons, like t...   Mar 13 2007, 01:27 PM
steddyman   I found the same, running at 480p rather than 720p...   Mar 13 2007, 04:28 PM
brywalker   I found the same, running at 480p rather than 720...   Mar 13 2007, 06:54 PM
dokworm   I absolutely do both. To the previous question ab...   Mar 14 2007, 01:35 PM
steddyman   Thanks dokworm I think I understand everything yo...   Mar 14 2007, 02:43 PM
RBJTech   Guys - I seriously don't recommend cutting the...   Mar 14 2007, 03:55 PM
brywalker   Guys - I seriously don't recommend cutting th...   Mar 14 2007, 04:20 PM
steddyman   Guys - I seriously don't recommend cutting th...   Mar 15 2007, 07:44 PM
dokworm   Yeah I think using thermal pads to get the memory ...   Mar 14 2007, 11:05 PM
mattygabe   So when replacing the X clips altogether, what typ...   Mar 15 2007, 02:24 AM
brywalker   So when replacing the X clips altogether, what ty...   Mar 15 2007, 03:36 AM
davbere   Good posts guys. Months ago I tried fixing about...   Mar 15 2007, 12:16 PM
mattygabe   Right now I am working on mine. M5 screws will fi...   Mar 15 2007, 03:06 PM
brywalker   Yeah I really think Microsoft went about it a bad...   Mar 15 2007, 03:13 PM
dokworm   My ones don't seem to get as hot now anyway, b...   Mar 17 2007, 06:41 AM
ferrari_rulz_02   My ones don't seem to get as hot now anyway, ...   Mar 17 2007, 10:42 PM
brywalker   I just wanted to bump this up. It seems that we ar...   Mar 20 2007, 03:43 AM
ferrari_rulz_02   votes for a pinned thread on 101 ways to fix this ...   Mar 20 2007, 04:49 AM
dokworm   It would be nice to have an overview thread pinned...   Mar 21 2007, 12:34 PM
Kurto2021   I did the heat gun trick...then i did this http:/...   Mar 21 2007, 12:39 PM
brywalker   I did the heat gun trick...then i did this http:...   Mar 21 2007, 01:29 PM
dokworm   I think that should work just fine, it keeps the b...   Mar 21 2007, 01:20 PM
Kurto2021   the problem I ran into with the nylon washers....a...   Mar 21 2007, 02:00 PM
brywalker   the problem I ran into with the nylon washers.......   Mar 21 2007, 03:46 PM
Kurto2021   if I went any thicker the screws would touch the m...   Mar 21 2007, 04:21 PM
steddyman   Sorry to be dumb, but the photos on your site dont...   Mar 21 2007, 04:41 PM
Kurto2021   yes you have to remove the pegs. The 10mm will fi...   Mar 21 2007, 04:45 PM
steddyman   Thanks, thats sounds really easy. Does this also ...   Mar 21 2007, 04:47 PM
Kurto2021   the clamps are in the trash. That is very importa...   Mar 21 2007, 04:48 PM
steddyman   Yeah, I got that bit from dokworms post, but he dr...   Mar 21 2007, 04:53 PM
Kurto2021   originally I was going to set spacers in between t...   Mar 21 2007, 04:56 PM
steddyman   Excellent, that sounds really easy. Thanks for yo...   Mar 21 2007, 05:01 PM
steddyman   The only bit that wasn't easy.... getting M5 1...   Mar 21 2007, 08:02 PM
brywalker   Update: Got it all together, working great so far...   Mar 21 2007, 09:28 PM
Kurto2021   Lowes and Home Depot did not have them here but th...   Mar 21 2007, 09:33 PM
steddyman   I'll send the wife out on an expedition tomorr...   Mar 21 2007, 11:31 PM
scotttheman   Quick question, what is the thickness of the cork ...   Mar 21 2007, 11:51 PM
dokworm   As long as the cork is the right height and the bo...   Mar 22 2007, 01:41 AM
Kurto2021   I doubt the cork is really doing anything to be ho...   Mar 22 2007, 02:04 AM
scotttheman   cool thx for reply didn't know if cork was ess...   Mar 22 2007, 02:06 AM
alucard_xs   Hi, thanks for helping ours xbox360s but can you ...   Mar 22 2007, 06:50 AM
Kurto2021   Hi, thanks for helping ours xbox360s but can you...   Mar 23 2007, 03:30 PM
steddyman   Well, I resoldered the three components on my 360 ...   Mar 22 2007, 10:10 PM
nightmare84j28   Nice thread :D Sounds like a good fix! Poss...   Mar 22 2007, 11:06 PM
ferrari_rulz_02   Nice thread :D Sounds like a good fix! Pos...   Mar 23 2007, 02:43 AM
drastic   I did this mod but just on the CPU side (my bolts...   Mar 23 2007, 02:54 AM
dokworm   I did this mod but just on the CPU side (my bolt...   Mar 23 2007, 02:03 PM
alucard_xs   Please, post your pics :rolleyes: I really need...   Mar 23 2007, 05:38 AM
shaggzz   Thanks to this great thread, another 360 has been ...   Mar 23 2007, 06:07 PM
handles25   I dont understand the lapping the heat sink. What...   Mar 23 2007, 06:51 PM
Kurto2021   I dont understand the lapping the heat sink. Wha...   Mar 23 2007, 07:09 PM
shaggzz   I dont understand the lapping the heat sink. Wha...   Mar 23 2007, 08:32 PM
handles25   Yes. The stock heatsink isn't very smooth. ...   Mar 23 2007, 10:20 PM
RDC   #5 (Heatsink Lapping) Can be done as long as it...   Mar 23 2007, 08:43 PM
Kurto2021   #6 (Thermal Paste) Can be done either way, a sma...   Mar 23 2007, 08:53 PM
brywalker   No offense but I am going to take the word of the...   Mar 24 2007, 05:52 AM
RDC   Just because you would use your finger doesn't...   Mar 23 2007, 09:53 PM
RBJTech   Slighly off topic .. but has anyone ever produced ...   Mar 24 2007, 12:01 AM
shaggzz   Slighly off topic .. but has anyone ever produced...   Mar 24 2007, 04:07 AM
RDC   Lapping decreases the amount of paste needed, so y...   Mar 24 2007, 12:14 AM
dokworm   On PCs I get about a 6 degree temperature drop, bu...   Mar 24 2007, 12:52 PM
RBJTech   Cheers guys - maybe it is worth doing then, only i...   Mar 24 2007, 08:36 PM
lawdawg0931   @dokworm & others Thank you so much for putti...   Mar 25 2007, 02:05 AM
dokworm   Glad it worked, I too am hopeful this creates a pe...   Mar 25 2007, 11:12 AM
N00bvin   I'm going on the record to say that this is ...   Mar 25 2007, 04:21 PM
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