Xboxfounder (Xbox Insider) Answers Questions Options

[Xbox-Scene]

Xboxfounder (Xbox Insider) Answers Questions Posted by XanTium | January 31 23:49 EST | News Category: Xbox360

Xboxfounder (8bitjoystick's source who revealed details about the RRoD issue and Project Helium before) posted answers to some readers questions: [QUOTE] * Q: After reading the article, my Xbox got the RROD, but that's not what this post is about. Instead of sending off refurbished systems, why not send consumers a brand new xbox when they experience the RROD? Isn't sending them one that got the RROD, just delaying the inevitable? * A: Sorry to hear about your 360 dying. I hope you get swift satisfaction from MS and get back into the action soon. The reason MS uses used materials to fulfill repair and refurb needs is purely economic. It is rational for any electronic company to try to do what MS is trying to do. Especially when the failure rate is so high. If MS had to eat the cost for all those failed units, it would put pressure on the biz unit up and down the food chain. Who can write off 4 million units at 400 bucks each? Well MS can. But they won't. Another bad decision. What's irrational about the way they are doing this is that they don't have a good idea, a high confidence, that the actions they take in repair lead to a unit that is as good as new. Or as good as it needs to be. They don't even clean them off. So you can baby your console, play it 100 hours, have it fail, and get one back that has been abused at a frat house and has a couple of thousand hours of use on it. Not a very fair deal. Regardless of the warranty. I could write for hours about this subject alone. But I hope you get what I'm saying. Q: You mentioned in the past that the 360 can scratch you discs. How does this happen, and is there a way to fix that problem? There was only a span of about 4 years between the launch of the XBox and the XBox 360. Should we expect to see the newest XBox within the next 2 years, or is it more likely for Microsoft to perfect (Or get as close to that standard as possible) the 360 before even thinking of launching a new console? * A: Disc Scratches? The 360 scratches discs when gamers jump around. The shock gets coupled into the console through the floor. The disc wobbles and hits the laser assembly. The part of the laser assembly that causes the scratch is about 1/2 inch to the outside of the laser, so the console doesn't show a problem at the time the disc is scratched because it isn't reading where the disc is scratched. It's only later when the laser hits the scratch that read errors occur. Then the user doesn't associate their activity with the damage because they didn't happen at the same time as far as they can see. An ODD has to be susceptible to this. It must be missing the pads on the inside of the top cover that are put there to stop the disc from traveling into the laser. A lot of this info is on the web, but I figured out how it happens and why it's controversial when it happened to my son on a new game. I sent this info to a friend at MS. Let's see if they do anything about it. 3rd gen when? The reasons the span between XB1 and 360 was so short were that XB1 was losing so much money, and MS wanted to get a head start on Sony in this gen. But the plan for 360 was for a 7 year life cycle before the next console. I don't know if that has changed since I left, but I don't see anything to cause it to. Just because they are already working on it doesn't mean it's anywhere near shipping. It's normal product development practice to always be working on new technology. And what should they be doing, given the problems on 360? I'm sure they don't want to repeat that. [/QUOTE] Full Story: 8bitjoystick.com

[PerfectGun]

Hrm.

"The reasons the span between XB1 and 360 was so short were that XB1 was losing so much money, and MS wanted to get a head start on Sony in this gen."

I agree with the second part of his statement that they wanted to get a jump on Sony. However, I thought the main reason the Xbox1 was discontinued was due to hardware licensing?


This person seems legit, however he also comes off as disgruntled. He really isn't saying anything you couldn't make up by just reading various news articles on the net about the 360 design and it's faults. Has this person actually told us anything we didn't know besides reenforcing what has already been discussed?

[NoFace]

I hardly think that "jumping around" causes the xbox 360 to scratch disks. My xbox 360 scratches disks (I can hear it too) when I am just sitting there. Besides, all of my gaming is done in a chair with my feet up most of the time.

[Wilhelm_I]

It was proofed that some 360's scratch discs, even microsoft said they do...

Source:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xbox_360_technical_problems
During the February 2007 investigation report, Kassa(dutch TV-series) stated that either not all Xbox 360s without protective pads would spontaneously scratch discs, or that the complaints were from Xbox 360 users who had moved their Xbox during use, or who used an unstable setup.[31] Here, Kassa's February 2007 investigation left open the question of whether consumers contributed to the rounded scratch problem by moving their Xbox 360 (TSST version) during the playing of a disc.[34] This resulted in Kassa receiving an additional 1,000 complaints over the subsequent two months, with many customers denying the Xbox had moved when the scratching occurred, or that it had been placed in an unstable position.[35]

Prompted by consumer reaction to their February 2007 report, Kassa performed several tests with Xbox 360s from customers who claimed their Xbox had the problem. Kassa stabilized these Xboxs and positioned them at a location remote from contact by anyone. The results of the laboratory conditions test revealed that one of the nine tested Xbox 360s had spontaneously scratched a disc after five hours of gaming. The Xbox also were tested standing upright, and the test revealed that three of the nine tested Xbox 360s had significantly scratched their games disc. The complete investigation, with all the relevant details of the tests, was made ready to be aired in April 14, 2007. But weeks before it aired Kassa solicited input from Microsoft Netherlands. The videos (also with English subtitles) can be found here: [36]

One day before the airing of the April 14, 2007 show, Kassa received a response from Microsoft Netherlands stating that "as a result of regular use it is possible that scratches on discs can arise",[37][38][39] and that Microsoft Netherlands "would seek a solution for the Dutch customers with this problem".

[exraid]

When do you think the next gen 360 with a RRoD fix will be out? Next fall?

[Bandit5317]

What is this guy smoking? Some units that are missing the pads on the top of the drives? None of them have pads on them, and they never have. All drives have the potential to scratch discs. If you don't believe me, take one of your games and run it while the 360 is in the vertical position. Then quickly rotate it to the horizontal position. You will be rewarded with a loud grinding noice, which is the laser assembly digging into your disc. This problem affects all the drives. Samsung, Hitachi, and Benqs can all scratch discs. There's a good article explaining why over at Llamma:

http://www.llamma.com/xbox360/news/Xbox-36...c-Scratched.htm

I've personally experienced this when one of my friends bumped into my other friends 360 when it was vertical. It fell over and made a loud grinding noise in the process. Luckily, it still worked but several levels on Halo 3 would no longer load. Later on, my friend's sister finished it off when she tripped over it when it was horizontal. It proceeded to grind even louder for about 15 seconds straight. When we took it out, it was covered in circular scratches, not just one circle. So sudden shock can also cause it to scratch discs. But I doubt jumping up and down would do anything . Maybe if you were jumping on top of it. I've also tested this with a Benq. It didn't seem to make as loud of a grinding noise, but it produced the same result, circular scratches in the disc.

[vanxman]

Hrm.

"The reasons the span between XB1 and 360 was so short were that XB1 was losing so much money, and MS wanted to get a head start on Sony in this gen."

However, I thought the main reason the Xbox1 was discontinued was due to hardware licensing?

Yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeessssssssssssssssssssssssssssss, and? Licensing costs money, which means it's costing them too much to produce the hardware. Hence "losing so much money"...

[openxdkman]

A change in leadership is clearly needed. Instead, I hear that several of the people that made the decisions that led to the current problems have been promoted. To the GM level, no less. No other company could afford to do that. You need big monopoly profits to fund that kind of incompetence.

This is the key, guys... It explains everything.
MS Hardware divisions will still be in trouble for decades from now.
MS Software divisions are probably ok at the moment.

[Verity]

This person seems legit, however he also comes off as disgruntled.

Not to sound stereotypical, but hardware engineers as a profession are generally pretty honest folks -- brutally honest in some regards. The noteworthy point of this guy's statements is that he actually worked on the XBox team, which adds veracity to all the rumors and internet claims of faulty XBox 360 stories. It's not surprising to me that an engineer gets disgruntled with a company that won't let you fix major problems before trying to sell that product to customers.

The XBox 360 story seems to be one of a rushed job to meet the Christmas 2006 buying season. After design and prototyping came back, seems the hardware engineers found unexpected significant problems with the machine. Normally a consumer electronics company will go back with a new redesign, but management wanted it pushed out the door anyway so as to beat Sony. Obviously this guy was upset enough about the unfixed hardware faults that he ultimately left the company over it. I wonder how many other people they may have lost from the original 360 hardware team, which might explain why it is taking them so long to come up with retrofit "fixes" and new board designs.

Given Microsoft's long history of "release first, patch later," this seems no different in upper management's attitude. With software, they've managed to create a whole industry of retail-paying beta-testers. Except that you can't really "patch" a hardware product very easily, nor cheaply.

This post has been edited by Verity: Feb 1 2008, 04:36 PM

[makavelif50]

Has anyone had any problems or gotten back a console in worse condition then the one they sent in? My xbox just got the RROD and i will be sending it in soon. Just want to know what type of console ill be getting back. What do they do to mine? Do i get back another console like mine that could get the RROD again? Could I get back a console with 100,000 hours of use on it?

[0794]

Xboxfounder states at the conclusion to his full article:

After all of my research of the XBOX 360 and the PS3, I have to say that I am no closer to making a decision about which console to purchase. My research leads me to the following conclusion:

1. Buy an XBOX 360, a console with an uncertain failure rate and has a large selection of titles available, or

2. Buy a PS3, a stable console with a cell processor waiting for developers to unlock it's full potential and currently has a limited number of titles available.

I wonder if there are more people out there facing the same dilemma I am with making a decision on which console to buy. I do want to thank you for revealing the truth about the 360 and for answering questions about the console.

Still researching which console to purchase? I still find it humorous that some people would still be putting so much time and energy into deciding which console to purchase this far out from release. Since they obviously haven't needed either console over the past few years, they probably care very little about gaming...but what else would cause someone so much duress in making this decision that it would take years to decide...


anyways, the article continues to provide great answers from "inside" MS, although this "insider" left MS 6 months before release of the 360...he can still provide some good information...

[HotKnife420]

What is this guy smoking? Some units that are missing the pads on the top of the drives? None of them have pads on them, and they never have. All drives have the potential to scratch discs. If you don't believe me, take one of your games and run it while the 360 is in the vertical position. Then quickly rotate it to the horizontal position. You will be rewarded with a loud grinding noice, which is the laser assembly digging into your disc. This problem affects all the drives. Samsung, Hitachi, and Benqs can all scratch discs. There's a good article explaining why over at Llamma:

http://www.llamma.com/xbox360/news/Xbox-36...c-Scratched.htm

I've personally experienced this when one of my friends bumped into my other friends 360 when it was vertical. It fell over and made a loud grinding noise in the process. Luckily, it still worked but several levels on Halo 3 would no longer load. Later on, my friend's sister finished it off when she tripped over it when it was horizontal. It proceeded to grind even louder for about 15 seconds straight. When we took it out, it was covered in circular scratches, not just one circle. So sudden shock can also cause it to scratch discs. But I doubt jumping up and down would do anything . Maybe if you were jumping on top of it. I've also tested this with a Benq. It didn't seem to make as loud of a grinding noise, but it produced the same result, circular scratches in the disc.

Why on earth would you suddenly move from horizontal to vertical and back? Of course that can scratch a disc; it's stated in the laws of physics. I believe the majority of us prefer to leave the console in one position while it's on.

This post has been edited by HotKnife420: Feb 1 2008, 07:12 PM

[Black Diamond]

Has anyone had any problems or gotten back a console in worse condition then the one they sent in? My xbox just got the RROD and i will be sending it in soon. Just want to know what type of console ill be getting back. What do they do to mine? Do i get back another console like mine that could get the RROD again? Could I get back a console with 100,000 hours of use on it?

Hey,

We have had several replacements and the first replacement was the worst. Nothing physically that we could tell was wrong with it, but it was just dog ass slow. Slow booting, in dash board, loading games, bringing up achievements.

What might have taken 10 to 15 seconds on the other 360s we have had took 3 - 5 minutes on that one. Looking at anything in the dash board was a nightmare. We were kind of glad it died, we were tired of waiting so long for everything.

The other ones have been fine, until they crapped out.

[Neoistheone2000]

Has anyone had any problems or gotten back a console in worse condition then the one they sent in? My xbox just got the RROD and i will be sending it in soon. Just want to know what type of console ill be getting back. What do they do to mine? Do i get back another console like mine that could get the RROD again? Could I get back a console with 100,000 hours of use on it?

Well I'm on # 9 and they finally sent me a new console (manufacture date was 11-23-07) but the 4th I think I had just un-boxed the console it had black scuff marks on it, the Fans would spin at full speed, then about a week latter it RRODed then I had to wait another 2 and a half weeks for the next one that ultimately RRODed too.

The last one they sent me (before the new one) the DVD drive was sticking (had to poke it to open it) and was giving me constant read errors.

The very first one I had the Spring 2006 update killed my system.

And the whole time I am going through this shit I stop and think, my 7 year old Xbox still works..... like the day i bought it.....

Guess after they realize they sent you 8 boxes and they have had them all sent back to them they finally just sent a new one. Hell I did a chialidish thing and taped a letter on both sides of the 360 when sending it in the 5th time "PLEASE SEND NEW 360"......

This post has been edited by Neoistheone2000: Feb 1 2008, 09:35 PM

[bucko]

It's a shame they didn't design the Xbox 1 so it could make money, they could still be fighting with the PS2 and Wii consoles of today (I'm not saying Wii is last-get, but MS could be Wii type controllers for XBox 1 etc and be a cheap machine). If they allowed XBMC on it officially some way then it would have been an awesome media centre to the general public...

Touch wood my 360 Elite has been ok (think I got it in November or something), it's quite high on my cabinet (and that is bolted to the wall with wood) so most shock from the floor doesn't get up there.