Nov 18 2002, 04:36 PM
So there are a variety of problems with XBL, some related to modded systems and some not. And there seem to be a few work arounds aswell. All of this doesn't really matter much though - in my opinion.
Think on the future, currently there seems to be a simple check to see if a system is modded. Lets say, it 1 weeks time various groups manage to come up with a workaround, in software. That is, a simple .XBE which you can run to allow your modded Xbox to get into the XBL network.
Whats to stop MS from implementing an altered checking procedure to which executes on the next connection, say for instance, search for a couple of well known filenames e.g. yboxdash.xbe.
New work around needed - easy one to fix.
Another MS check, this time a CRC check on the bios. New work around needed.
Another MS check implemented a month later, HD size check. etc. etc. etc.
Basically, the point I am trying to make. XBL allows MS direct and dynamic access to your system. That is - they can CHECK and UPDATE system info.
I would be surprised if a fairly simple workaround for current connection problems is not published in the next few days by various groupd. I'd be more surprised if this isn't an on going problem week in week out, with multiple workarounds needed for an ever changing set of checking procedures implemented by MS.
I don't think this is a battle which is going to be won for a long time to come, if ever. It might be the case that to use XBL (without constant updating and workarounds) you'll need an unmodded system.
Nov 18 2002, 04:39 PM
Thats not to say that hacking around each new check and trying to beat MS at their own game isn't fun. Maybe, for some, this'll be more attractive than playing on XBL at all!
Nov 18 2002, 05:05 PM
erdas, don't mention the hard drive thing. I'm sure there will be a way to use the locked hard drive method along with a new bios to get through this. or simply another bios. other than that, they have nothing else to check.
the main problem right now is actually doing something to prevent the detection of the chip. secondly, to find a way for those banned people to get back on the system.
that's the problem. so many people banned. and it's bullshit. I fucking went out and bought mech assault to play it. i didn't rip it. but i still can't play. that's what i don't find fair about it. you pay them $$$ and you still can't get on.
Nov 18 2002, 05:40 PM
|QUOTE (erdas @ Nov 18 2002, 03:39 PM)|
|Thats not to say that hacking around each new check and trying to beat MS at their own game isn't fun. Maybe, for some, this'll be more attractive than playing on XBL at all!|
Oh my, people are going insane .Of course, people do whatever they want to with their money and free time. For me, a game system is supposed to be fun PLAYING GAMES .
Nov 18 2002, 05:42 PM
if you ask me, fucking with MS is even more fun.
Nov 18 2002, 05:45 PM
|erdas, don't mention the hard drive thing. I'm sure there will be a way to use the locked hard drive method along with a new bios to get through this. or simply another bios. other than that, they have nothing else to check. |
Want to hear something fun about BIOS bypassing? Once I got a japanese game, and I had to setup Windows 95 in japanese on a second hard disk. To switch between them, as I didn't want to mess around with multiple boots, I simpy disabled the hard disk I wouldn't boot on BIOS.
And guess what: the trick worked to load the correct Windows version, but once it was up, Windows recognized the other HD also, wich was disabled on BIOS!!!
So, don't count on MS NOT looking for larger hard disks and extra partitions, they CAN do it and it's not the BIOS that will hold them to do it, they can bypass it, check disk partitions and the total size of the disk.
Nov 18 2002, 05:52 PM
uhmm....no. you are wrong here. The bios you used was a pc bios, and you just edited parts of it that you were allowed to edit. if you were to edit the actual bios, you would be able to block off the drive, or make it so it wouldn't be reported to the pc. afterall, MS can't detect ANYTHING that the bios doesn't detect. it gets all its information from the bios.
Nov 18 2002, 07:30 PM
I think MS will end up shooting themselves in the foot if they try to detect and control modding TOO DILIGENTLY. Think about it. We already have LAN connectivity and I've already heard of people setting up VPN's and WAN's to network multi-player Halo games. What's to stop a group of Modded Xbox owners from creating their own network of Modded Xboxes to play games collaboratively online? The game's protection system? Please... That will just encourage modders to rent/rip the online games and then apply the inevitable patch/crack and play with their buddies via WAN.
MS can't win this one so I doubt they'll try too hard... Besides, they'll start seeing declining sales of XBLive! and potentially Xbox consoles themselves if they try to alienate their bread and butter... I understand the need for them to send their "anti-mod" message via Xbox live, but they need to realize that modders are generally tweakers; not necessarily thieves. I personally like the tweaking aspect of modding an Xbox, but still own over 20 originals and plan on buying more originals as they come out.
Just my $.02
Nov 18 2002, 08:55 PM
I think it would be hard to find people that have modded Xboxes that have no duped copies of games. MS had to do something about modchips. I just think it's crazy that all these people connected to Live with their modchip on. I participated in the beta with my Matrix in mode 3 and never connected with the chip on. The few games I like enough to want to play on Live I'll buy and continue to use mode 3. Anyone who thought MS was just going to ignore modchips and let trainer writers ruin Xbox Live eventually is nuts.
Nov 18 2002, 09:01 PM
i own my original copy of mech assault. yet i am banned.
that's just great.
Nov 18 2002, 09:26 PM
| uhmm....no. you are wrong here. The bios you used was a pc bios, and you just edited parts of it that you were allowed to edit. if you were to edit the actual bios, you would be able to block off the drive, or make it so it wouldn't be reported to the pc. afterall, MS can't detect ANYTHING that the bios doesn't detect. it gets all its information from the bios.|
No, the whole point is that people are yelling that Microsot can't detect larger hard disks because the retail BIOS doesn't allow it to do. Not without additional code that MS can do easily. You got a point if it was a simple comparison between a PC BIOS and the XBox BIOS, yes, they ARE different, but the point is: everything is possible on code if you look on the system architecture. There's no way you can hide the HDD size, there's no way you can hide your F drive. Forget it, if you where a programmer, you'd understand what I am saying. Don't rely on just what people say like a mantra here because not all is truth. Remember: last thursday there was no modchip detection, and people where telling everyone wrong, me included, as "it's impossible for them to do that". Look around you and you'll see that it's not just like that, they're detecting modchips and they're doing something else that blocks the boxes.
Nov 18 2002, 09:31 PM
|QUOTE (dripgoss @ Nov 18 2002, 06:30 PM)|
|I think MS will end up shooting themselves in the foot if they try to detect and control modding TOO DILIGENTLY. Think about it. We already have LAN connectivity and I've already heard of people setting up VPN's and WAN's to network multi-player Halo games. What's to stop a group of Modded Xbox owners from creating their own network of Modded Xboxes to play games collaboratively online? The game's protection system? Please... That will just encourage modders to rent/rip the online games and then apply the inevitable patch/crack and play with their buddies via WAN. |
People are already riping and making copies of their games, what's their loss? And you point is wrong because all games with LAN support work, modchip enabled or not. People never had problem playing their LAN games, so where in this scenarion they're loosing money, where people already rip XBox games to play them from HDD and DVD-Rs, where MS doesn't ge anything from it?
They're pissing all over people who did that, for who doesn't care, life just goes on. Get over it people. Be responsible for your own acts, not crybabies that go for mommy the first time they are caught on the act.
Nov 18 2002, 09:40 PM
here's where you're wrong. ok, windows gets hard drive info from the bios. if the bios doesn't detect your drive, windows will not detect it. if the bios detects it as a different hard drive, that's what windows sees as well. now, i'm sure the xbox bios could do the same. in the end, at worst, it will come down to having buy your games. sure. but i just want to be able to USE my bought games!!! which is something i can't do right now.
and yes, i am a programmer too. first year student, but still.
Nov 18 2002, 11:11 PM
|and yes, i am a programmer too. first year student, but still. |
Good luck on your quest!
Seriously. There is no way we can stop MS from detecting mods Esp. since games run at Ring 0. With Direct Hardware access there is no way to prevent the system from detecting HD size, make model, serial etc. Anyone talking about using fake Xbox serials is just asking for trouble. Remember people when you use live YOU SIGN IN, If people start side-stepping mods MS will only escalate the battle. Personally I like the Idea of no mods on XBLive, because it means no CHEATERS..... yeah yeah I know YOU personally dont wan't it to cheat, but if the capability is there - people will use it.
Additionaly, MS has not even pulled out the Big Guns.
Has anyone heard of Intel's Microcode update features. THEY CAN UPDATE THE CPU MICROCODE!
I could easily see MS putting mod checks into OFFLINE games that update the CPU mircocode on modded consoles. And then xboxlive could be toast for a modded console even if you take every precaution to prevent from connecting via live.
Just my 2 cents.
Personally If they draw the line at playing live with a modded console I would be more than happy. We can still play MAME, homebrew, yamp, etc.
If the current mod chip blocking is defeated, then I am more than willing to bet that MS will up the ante.
Nov 18 2002, 11:28 PM
ms can kiss my ass.
ok, here's the thing. this is what i mentioned earlier. what you do is you use so many serial numbers with a modded xbox, and have them all get banned. (random serials belonging to normal people) and then, when they start complainning a lot, MS will have to take down that whole checking idea.
get it? ruin what they do. make it cause damage to many people.
Nov 18 2002, 11:52 PM
|ok, here's the thing. this is what i mentioned earlier. what you do is you use so many serial numbers with a modded xbox, and have them all get banned. (random serials belonging to normal people) and then, when they start complainning a lot, MS will have to take down that whole checking idea.|
No offense ArMaGeDdOn, but this is exactly the sort of attitude and action that will *FORCE* MS to escalate their use of force in their battle against mods online. I'm quite sure I you did this you would have MS lawyers, and a DA on you doorstep pretty quickly. I'm sure you know how judges like to make examples of hackers.
PVWR has it right. This is a losing battle. When you come right down to it MOD's on live are a Bad Thing.
Nov 19 2002, 11:02 AM
The point is, MS now has dynamic access to your Xbox via XBL. If they want to alter the way in which they detect MODS then they can and most likely will.
If you want a compelling reason why they'd do this - its got little to do with sales (IMO). Although they would *really* like to stop pirating of their system.
No, the big issue (as I think has already been stated by a few) is the ability to run unsigned code. Simply put, that means a possible trainer or other code code be implemented allowing people to cheat. This would, or could, utterly kill XBL. Its happened before to similar networks but on a smaller scale (e.g. Diablo II).
IMO THIS is the main driver behinds MS's crusade against modded systems. And it is one they absolutely will not give up on. The possible consequences if they did are too high.
So given that, it would seem likely that MS will continue to at least try and come up with novel ways at detecting modded systems - this may, or may not, include keeping a database of banned serial no's.
However, if you have a virign Xbox with a hardware switched mod then there is absolutely nothing for them to check. So you should be ok. Although, if they were sneaky, they could introduce code to search for mods when you are offline and report back when you next connect.
Then its a battle to detect the code before its too late.
It looks like this battle is set to run run and run. MS will not give up.
Nov 19 2002, 01:32 PM
Erdas: Your comments are an oasis of sense in a desert of ignorance. You have hit the nail on the head with the dynamic nature of XB live and from a sales and publicity point of view MS cannot afford to lose this one.
Although, short lived breaches may be made into XB live (if any at all), they will be detected quickly and new dynamic code rolled out. What don't people understand about this?
Its pretty simple buy a new xbox, use that for live, and the one you have now for everything else.
Nov 19 2002, 03:35 PM
Lol - the time and effort folk have expended here is phenomenal!
For the sake of around £130, why not just go and buy another machine? By continuing this fruitless quest to defeat MS, you all run the risk of us all having our accounts PERMANATELY banned (just our first machine has been nuked at the moment, but cleverly, MS have made it public knowledge that they reserve the right to take further steps in future..). Bill has the dynamic capability to usurp any hacking. Let's say you do an eeprom hack and you're on. A month later, Bill hits back and bans that serial, you'll end up either having to find another hack or buy another machine.
Do a simple test....upside versus downside. Aggravation required versus potential reward...The math does not add up
I say again, at the risk of boring everyone, OP - switch of your last two remaining permanately connected machines, leave it a couple of hours, then reconnect. I guarantee, the modded x boxes will be nuked.
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