Project : Personnal Video Recorder (PVR)

First, sorry for my poor english.

What is it? It is a box which makes it possible to record television live. You can PAUSE, move back a few minutes, jump commercial breaks and especially, record live TV. It is already sold on high-end systems. Rather than a video tape recorder, the data is recorded on the hard disk (buffer memory).

Goals : Integrated a software solution into XBMC and in Xbox to allow these functionalities of interactive television. From the material point of view, two solutions are considered at present, see below.

Required Functionnalities + Importance degree :
PAUSE (CRITICAL)
Fast rewind (5 secs-1 min) (CRITICAL)
Jumb back (up to 30 min) (HIGH)
Skip commercials break (LOW)
Record Live TV (CRITICAL)
Encode video data to Xvid or Divx (MEDIUM)
Audio encoding to mp3 (MEDIUM)
Integrated to XBMC as iTV (HIGH)
PC free (MEDIUM, high difficulty)
Remote Channel Selection (HIGH)
Nice apperance (MEDIUM)

What are the current solutions ?

1- The XBOX is connected on the LAN. The coaxial entry of television is connected on an apparatus which will seek the frequency band of the necessary station (selected remotely), digitizes it and transmits it out on UDP package on the LAN. The XBOX, via XBMC, will be able to activate and close this numerisator, to choose the station to be listened, to read the stream and to display it. XBMC and its new module iTV, to be conceived thereafter, will manage all the functionalities to be established.

2- To replace the numerisator by a software on a PC (on the same LAN as Xbox) which will take the acquisition of the video chart and to send it over the LAN stream.

What is the schedule ?
For the moment, the startup of the project depends on its popularity. I will wait until the end August to recruit people and to possibly be able to test project 2 (simple). Once this stage reached, if the request for a numerisator is large, I will try to seek if this product exists, how much it costs, and how to integrate this solution into our project.

Briefly :
Jully- August: - Startup of the project
- Training of the team
- design Beginning of the software and analyzes feasibility of the various options
- Test of option 2

September - Seek and design the numerisator for the solution #1
- Improvement of the software, addition of functionality
- Recording optimization (encoding of quality and effective)

October-December ? - Dependently of the difficulty of buying, of assembling, or of designing the numerisator, evaluation of advance.
- Xbox Software (via XBMC) and PC (releases)

Due date : 31 december 2004 or before!

[i]Actual Team[i]


Xlash (Splash911 on X-S) - Network & Hardware & Electronic & Telecommunications
Shadownet - Software & Data acquisition

This project raises great challenges which we will not be able to take up alone. If you are interested by this project, a part, or that you know what already exists, we await your collaboration for finally supplementing the center of entertainment which Xbox occupies in a family room! We don't have any Xbox software development yet, but we will need any help as offered.

Official forum is in french on XBOXSTYLE.com. An active subject will be on Gueux.NET, and on Xbox-scene.com


Thanks to the Xbox Scene, and sorry for my poor english!

That certainly sounds like an interesting (and difficult) idea. I'd help you out if I had the talents you guys have, but obviously I don't.

(Oh, and BTW, no need to apologize for your English. It's more understandable than a lot of native English speakers around here! )

The difference is surely because I'm trying harder!

Thanks for your support, we will wait to get enough developper (as needed) and to see if the project is interesting enough for you guys.

C ya

Good luck Ive been hopeing someone would make a pvr

wait a sec.....so u mean this is going 2 be a program....... that i can put on my box so i can save tv shows and crapp..... my friend has a tevo thing and it can use xbmc to watch tv shows....then i just save them on my hd ...then ftp and burn them on a dvd so i can watch them on any dvd player....it would be sweet if u can just get a program on xbox 2 save all that shit...because yea......i dont wanna buy a tevo

It won't be just a TiVo. If the project kicks off well and enough people and developpers are interested, it could be a stand alone project, PC free. You would have to plug the TV cable (coaxial RF modulated) into a "digitalisor" which would transform it into stream packet on a LAN.

Best of luck.

Good luck, sounds very good

DUDE THIS IDEA = one of the best.... ! lets get crackin! but because i suck at this shit....lol ...b



i love going on xbox scene on my xbox lol w00t!thanks 2 linksboks!

record live tv best of luckbe the first in line to test and dl this thingy lol

NEWS.

Gamester17 from XBMC will put me in contact with Friendtech. They will surely be of great help to engineer a stand-alone little box which let you replace your VCR by your new XBOX ;-)

Here's his answer on XBMC forum :

This sounds very interesting. I know they spoke about similar stuffs more than a year ago, but, if I remember correctly, they didn't think it would be possible because the xbox wouldn't be able to process that much information real-time. I don't know if that would apply to your project, since you seem to have thought about most parts, but I'd advice you to check that up, so you don't do hard work if it's not possible. But I believe and hope you guys will pull it through because I've been stunned about what the xbox can achieve before.

I didn't here about that, but I must disagree. I own a P3 450 mhz, and I can stream live TV pretty well. The only thing may be the amount of ram limiting the options of buffering (number of channel, rewind, and recording(simultaneous encoding). We will be sure to try with a PC streaming the data before going into hardware engineering!

Thanks for your intersest, stay tuned

Can one of those USB AV capture devices be used instead of a 'numerisator'?

I don't exactly know how one works, but it can be bought for less than $100. If that is cheaper than what the 'numerisator' will cost, then obviously it is the better choice.

It might require more processing on the xbox's part, so might not work.

But anyway, here's one I found:

Nice, thanks for showing that out!

At a first non-technical glance, I'd said we will need a modulator to take coaxial IN to RCA or S-Video. That is not really expensive. I'll check on that and on the software and drivers for that USB tv.

I have seen NTSC and PAL compatibility which are great.
0.5Mb/s to 7.5Mb/s is USB1.1 compatible.

And many other intersting feats.

I'll let you updated on that. If the drivers are portable and open for Xbox use, that could be the end of our problem.

Moreover, their is other USB thing like that, bigger, but with open source softwares (LINUX.). As point in a :DVR forums.

Thanks everyone, stay tuned

What your plans about building USB drivers for the XBOX?
Nobody has done this yet.

jippie

That's what Gamester17 point to my attention. XBMC is not a native Operating system like Xbox Linux and no current development as been made to do this.

As a results, I'll stick to the more open and interesting plan, the antenna2lan project. I'm working to know more of all the pieces, and I will be in discussion with Friendtech this week, thanks to Gamester17.

Stay tuned.

Awesome Idea. I would come up with a better name then digitalizer though...

This has some really amazing applications beyond the xbox if you think about it.

Good luck and I'll preorder one.

Really? I thought of marketing it as the modulatedRFcoaxialToBasebandConvertedToDigitalThenProcessedEncodedStreamedOverLA
NwithXBMCtiVOCapability ;-)

If you want to pre-order I'll take it lol! No prototype are yet existing nor near to exist!

But stay tuned, it could move fast!

Hi,

So far, it seems to me that using a USB MPEG2 encoder like the one from Hauppauge (WinTV PVR USB) is the most convicing solution. If you're to develop a stand-alone app, writing a functional (and, yeah, fast) USB driver is a great challenge. On the other hand writing an app running on top of a linux OS would provide easy access to USB devices, but matching the required performance (real-time encoding, etc) is'nt straightforward (considering that the XBOX has only 64Mb and linux + X consume most of it). Additionally, it won't be as reactive and user-friendly... loading a linux distro is much longuer than any other stand-alone app.

Well, maybe there's some existing work that could be reused... some stand-alone apps provide USB support, is'nt it ?? (dashboards, games)

No USB support is available external to the Linux distro. I do not plan of developping that, and I do not plan using Linux on Xbox for displaying.

Goal is to a a TV2LAN adapter which XBMC can read the stream and process data to make TiVO functions available. Moreover, the use of a DreamX could give better TiVo functionnalities, discussion with Friendtech are in progress.

Moreover, I'll try to get in contact with modchip companies for sponsorship and eventually retail the product. It is yet to be determined. For now, I'm working on developping the hardware for that project. Check XBMC forums

http://www.xboxmediaplayer.de/cgi-bin/foru...t=ST;f=4;t=5223

for more info on the USB discussion.

Thanks for you interest and thinking!

this seems like one of the best ideas i've heard of in a while. good luck.

I know, I so like that idea, and the project is starting pretty well. Better than I've expected. Thanks to Gamester17(XBMC) and Rampy(DVR forum).

Specifications are to be final in a few days (maybe weeks), and pieces research is already started. Moreover, manufacturing and marketing deals could be sell to companies like Friendtech, or mod companies. Communications are to be made, but I still have to launch official project things.

Like a name for the project (Thinking of tv2lan, tv2xbox,etc.)
Official Site and forum to be up
Find some hardware gurus to help me validate specs. (Maybe a business can with their engineering ressources).
Finally, I want some pub for the project. I already ask Xantium about a news 7 days ago, and I'll ask again when official things are chosen and official sponsor too.

The project is moving fast, it's ambitious and I still need to know the popularity of such a thing. After that, more workarounds would be made to make the product perfect (maybe a use for the LCD screen to program remote recording, or display channel, etc.) If anyone could refer the project to business, Xbox influent scene members, etc, I'll be glad to concentrate my work on the design of the hardware and software for the project.

More news to come in the next day, continue posting opinions/ideas/clarifications.

this sounds like a very interesting idea. as the usb1 specs are pretty slow compaired to the bandwidth of 100mb lan

the main problem is the tivo functions, the xbox lacks that kind of power unless you do have a dreamx. it would definatly have to be a external hardware encoder to take the tv signal and digtise it. USB2LAN is the place to start first and get the usb data converted into some sort of mpeg2 stream so it can be played smoothly by any pc or xbox with no pc involved.

but the simplest way would be to develope the tv capture device drivers into xbmc

i see it as

tv signal > decoder/channel parser >mpeg2 encoder > usb to lan > video server > router/switch/hub > mpeg2 media player
also there would need to be a signal sent to and from the player back to the parser to change channel etc

/subscribes i hope this goes some were far

I've been waiting for someone to begin a serious XBOX PVR project, but this solution just doesn't seem practical. Imagine the cost to manufacture a "digitaliser" that captures video at a good quality (I'm imagining in MPEG 2) and broadcasting it over a LAN. The "digitaliser" would need to be a computer with running backend software that would be controled by the XBOX's frontend's. In the process of building this, you'd be building a standalone video capture computer running a linux-like operating system. Why not just throw in a harddrive and ditch the XBOX while you're at it? You're "solution" is mearly an idea to mimick a PVR by having a seperate accessory do 95% of the work and the XBOX mearly be a server with a user interface. If you're gonna have your XBOX just be a frontend, it would be much more efficient to use one of those linux based PVR projects that already have support for an XBOX frontend. That way you could just buy a good pci hardware MPEG2 encoder card for like $75.

If you want to work on a useful project, make use of the USB ports. Although you can only get 1.5 MB/s on USB 1.1, it is relatively sufficient for tv capture. A suggestion would be to include support for a commonly found non tv-tuning capture card as most tech savy people have a set-top box (digital cable or satellite). Also, support for an IR blaster would be need to control the channels. This project would be WORLDS eaiser to accomplish than building a lan-based "digitaliser" and would allow users to buy the neccessary equipment from a local electronics store. I agree it shouldn't run on linux; it would be awesome if somebody could get an xbe based program like this working. Once created it could easily be ported into XBMC and allow the user to schedule recordings and browse television programs through an EPG. Sorry to be so pessimistic, but the "digitaliser" idea just isn't practical.

P.S.
The XBOX wouldn't be able to encode a program in decent quality DIVX or XVID in real-time. It could encode into these formats from a captured MPEG2 stream later though, but writing the neccessary xbox code for such a conversion is very difficult in itself.

Same post as in XBMC's forum cuz questions are similar, sorry! ;-)

usb2 Divx harware encoder

i think something along the lines of this would be a good idea

That seems nice, except that there is no support for USB 2.0 for the Xbox, and as we said earlier, even USB 1.1 is not and will not be XBMC compatible.

What could be useful would be to find a hardware which take USB communications over LAN. Be careful, I'm ain't looking for a USB router, it is not the same data communication. Finally, we don't know the protocol of communication for the software and that USB thing. That means, Xbox implementation is utopic.

And one more word of advise.
Don't mention the word XBOX.
MS will be on you like a ton of bricks.

Lan2TV.

jippie

I always liked the idea of a Xbox as a PVR and I like that some1 is actively researching the options.

-USB is too slow for transporting MPEG2, but it could handle MPEG4+MP3 with acceptable quality loss *I think* (11mbps = 1408 kbps).

-Xbox can't do PAL-quality MPEG4 in realtime, tested it with a slightly more powerful system with a TV capture card, barely 10fps.

-Does load on Xbox NIC also affects processor, like cheap Realtek chips in PC?

-We most definitely need a defragment program if Xbox become a PVR

-As long as XBMC is built with XDK, you remain dependant on the Xbox Homebrew Scene for providing the binary's.

-Quick Google: here and here two of these chips can do the nescessary MPEG4 encoding, already have USB interface and costs $20/unit at 10.000 units. You'll need something that can tune/convert the TV signal and a whole lot more.

-Timeshifting would be 100% coolness but I think the Xbox ATA-33 interface is too slow?

Just some thoughts.

USB to TCP/IP is what is really meant when ppl 'dream' about usb2lan. This is possible but nowhere near practical, unless you have ridiculous amounts of funding and free time which i'm fairly safe to say few of us have in great supply. The reasons behind this is that same reasoning why you cannot connect a usb flash drive directly to a usb camera to take advantage of the extra storage. For the usb2lan idea to occur the following requirements would need to be achieved:
1. recreate the USB root hub driver, which is software based on windows/linux, on a embedded chip from scratch
2. the software on this embedded chip that could convert this to a streaming fromat suitable for xbmc, but doing it FAST.
3. dont forget that you need to write the TCP/IP driver for the HARDWARE

Problems with the above:
1. the root hub driver is no easy task to achive, thats which the big companies spend lots of money on R&D for developing the hardware and software, and then reselling it for others to rebadge
2. sure lots of embedded ic's are fast, but unless specifically designed for media conversion, are not practical
3. dont reinvent the wheel for the sake of usb's convienience(sp) .
overall: as said by other what you ask for is a basically a pc.

Better solution (at least i think so):
1. see those silver rectangular boxes on tv tuner pci cards? thats what ya want. those pci tuner cards as a whole are, in a nutshell a analog2digital device, with a chip that converts the analog signal from the tuner ( silver box) into a form for the pci bus. these silver boxes are the same generic design that are i think from Philips and as such are well documented.
2. using an analog to digital converter to convert the signal to a digital signal
3. there is a programmable device on the market that is not unlike a BASIC Stamp but instead of using BASIC, it uses C or C++ ( i cunny remember) and has a built in TCP/IP driver. it has an ethernet port and if there is a new version, have wireless buit into the driver. this would be most useful in prototyping. the bumstick is i cant remember what its called or who makes it.
4. another idea is to look into the mpeg2 and 4 decoders used in the generic designs for cheap dvd players (you know, the ones that support everthing [god bless the taiwanese] when the big name dvds players like sony shaft ya) . they may manufacture equivilent encoders.

any way to undergoe my solution would require someone who can develop their own circuits and is capable of understanding the various ic's. i would imagine that the mod makers would be able to do so

</end rant,rave & hint of sane idea>

Quick update, check XBMC forum for the last post from Gamester17 here :
http://www.xboxmediaplayer.de/cgi-bin/foru...t=ST;f=4;t=5223

FORGET ABOUT THE USB. The goal is not to use the USB ports, but to take a analog TV signal and streamed it to a LAN. TV2LAN.

There already exist some CPU with integrated MPEG2-TS, MPEG4 encoding, AAC and MP3 encoding. The Xbox will not be able to encode real-time MPEG4, I know. That chip is design for that. The actual software on the XBMC would be able to view it. However, PVR's functionnalities are still to be implemented.

And that CPU have TCP/IP protocols integrated, and Ethernet.

Check Nexperia PNX1500

c ya.

that chip should do it. i think sticking to mpeg2 transport stream is a good idea as no compresion needs to be done if taken from a digital broadcast ie digital terestrial

i havent fully read about the chip, can it be controlled by tcp/ip?

also if this does go to into some sort of massproduction stage and it is sold it think it would be better to be sold under all playforms instead of just a xbox add on

Edit: also i think tivo features should be worked out after the bx has a prototype. just getting the tv signal to some sort of stream is the way to go tbh

Mpeg2 TS is most bandwith eager than Mpeg 4. It is 4-16 Mbps compare to 1-4 Mbps. I haven't check yet for digital TV, but is it the case (MPEG2?)

The chip can be controlled via IP, under the PNpG protocol (designed specifically for that kind of "server" control and stream. The protocol is embedded which is a good thing for design, control effectiveness and software design (no protocol to be created, fully extendable).

I agree with you, We would have a real interest in PC for households, Xbox, Mac, etc.

The software design would be that way. First take a PC, install a remote client with UPnP implemented, taking a TV signal, and streaming it to the LAN. We could then capture the signal either with a Xbox or another PC to test our softwares.

Thanks for your clarifications!

the mpeg2 ts would be just the same a streaming a dvd video over the network to xbmc, there is 100mb to play with. what about multichannel streaming is that a posibility so there could be multiple viewers.

I'm not sure what digital tv is streamed as but its digital terestrial

Anyway, my yesterday's answer wasn't thoughtful. Digital TV needed to be DECODE, then output to coaxial or RCA or S-VIDEO cable to TV. It is gonna be that signal that we can use for TiVO and PVR functionnalities. I won't try to decode those signals.

For the multichannel, the Nexperia PNX8550 has 2 front end for a receiver. Which means we could get 2 signals by processor. We are aiming at one box for now, but if a sponsor would like to market it, it would be more than a possibility to offer different boxes. One with 1 CPU, some with more than one for multiple channel stream. That would be nice. And on a 100 Mbps network, we would get a few 2-4 MPEG2-TS without eating all the available bandwith. And for extreme user, there good be a Gigabit LAN interface.

Hope that answer your question!

my friends have showed me some HDTV TS videos that they have downloaded and they are just save on the harddrive with no compression and the original audio tracks etc. the file sizes are quite big for HDTV around 35mb/s. so a regular dvd stream would be around half that.

i did a quick search for a HDTV capture card and found thisMacro Image Technology's MDP-120 and this HDTV Tuner Cards

what do you think with one of them tuners?

Edit: would it be better to post in xbmc forum?

FYI

Expect to hear good news on new MCE for xbox with PVR functionality (to be added upon hardware dev.) and also HDMI features soon. It is in the beta stages but blows all other Linux based Media Centers frorto shame. This is CyKiller, yes the one who has retired from the xbox scene but this project interest has resurrected the name. It has only been in the works for about a month now but has a lot of potential as it is not merely just another media center it actually this is an extremely significant development, as it is the first "practical" installation of a linux-based application that an entry-level user can utilize.. Let me feed your curiosity, MCE is based on mythtv and gentoox (fully legal through Cromwell). Coordinated and developed by Shallax and I the MCE has a very bright future. Expect more in the Xbox news very soon and keep up the good work because we are looking for ways to add pvr functions asap. Xlash your mail was forwarded to me from Friendtech and I will go over it a little more when I get time and get back to you personally but to let you know the interest level is high. I won't read the forums that much if at all after this for your response but im sure in coming days you will be able to find a way to contact me through Friendtech.


Here is a review of a user I let preview (thanks aweirduy), this is his final conclusion of the software when it was BETA3 and we are now in beta4 stage with a major add-on:

"There have been previous versions of linux available for the xbox, but none of them have the "entry-level-appeal" of the Friendtech Media Center. This is a piece of software that the "legitimate law abiding citizens" can use to expand the current abilities of their xbox, without needing a "power-user" type of background and previous linux experience. The modding community needs this type of software desperately, as this provides a solid, legitimate purpose to keep modchips legal. It might be a small step in the advancement for media players, but it's a giant groundbreaking leap for legitimacy of the entire xbox modding community."


It will go public on the 31st of this month and I will send a more detailed public notice to the scene tomorrow for sites to post (PLEASE DO NOT USE THIS FOR SITE PUBLICITY AS I WILL SEND OUT A MORE DETAILED NOTICE TOMORROW).

CyKiller


(Please do not try to PM nor email me, Shallax, or Friendtech about the project we will contact you if needed and thank you.)

Forget the "digitaliser", just sell me those leopard print coax cables.

They are not mine! Check www.videotron.com if you like them ;-)

Sounds like a fun project, but I don't see the point, really.

Buy a $50 video capture card for you PC and set it up to record to a shared directory. Play recorded videos on XBMC across the network.

I think most people with modded xboxes have PCs. Why the rush to take the PC out of the equation?

So you'd like to have your PC running all-day streaming all-day to the LAN, so when you're rdy to watch TV, you have TiVO functionnalities.

The goal is clear. Without a PC. That means you can take your Xbox to your grandfather's house, pause live TV, record it, rewind, etc. without any PC setup. Moreover, you don't need to lose your PC power to do that.

And finally it can be a marketing thing. To sell a fully legal Xbox with PVR capabilities without a PC. You just plug everything and it work. No harassment at all. For PC user it means the same thing. Why is their some specialized Video card? To free CPU from specific calculations. I'd like to see you encoding real-time Xvid and Mp3 for when you want to watch the News, you can go back 5 sec to the healine you missed.

No, I would certainly not want any harrasment going on

Splash: You said I could take it to grandpa(or whatever), but didn't it require any other hardware also? Will it be possible to bring the xbox to anybody with a digital sattelite reciever and plug the things up?

This seems like a very interesting project, which I hope develops well. Maybe you've already planned it but I think you should update the first post on this thread with all new information. Makes it easier to follow the progress. And I think this topic should be pinned.

You can get usb 'extenders' that just do usb-ethernet-usb. What about taking an eyeTV USB (which has a build in mpeg encoder and usb 2.0) or something similar, attatch it to the usb extender, then teach xbmc to read the 'usb' signal off the ethernet connection?

ie. antennae-usb-ethernet-xbox-xbmc-tv

In Australia we dont have as many channels as you guys do, so there is also the obvious option of somebody actually setting up an internet tv service that is just a broadcasted stream of popular tv channels over the internet. You could leave in the ad's, make it a pay service, or include EXTRA ad's if you wanted to be a shit. It would mean i could watch tv on my laptop too

.

they look pretty clever but they only run at 12mb/s usb 1.1 and on usb2.0