In one of my previous threads it was brought to my attention that the reason Windows will not run on the Xbox is because of the checks that are run by Windows. Thank you Scan-C for bringing this to my attention. I had suggested that a bios hack would be a solution, but this brings it's own problems because of the complexity of the code which would be required to get this going. We obviously cannot alter Windows to run because we do not have the source, so we must get the checks to pass and we should be home free, or at least past a major obstacle standing in our way. The problems as addressed by Scan-C in the previous thread are:

"There's no source code for Windows. It has to not address some areas of the ram because this locks up the Xbox, and it has to not scan the pci bus otherwise, lockup. These are the major problems with Windows. Another thing are the drivers, there are none. The people who have Windows running use it through Bochs or Linux with VMWare. I'm not saying it can't be done, but it will be hard and without source code you will need a way to readdress the ramparts and stop the pci buxs scan. It's exactly the part where I am with my FreeDOS port. I'm just lacking the programming skills, but I'm learning right now at least FreeDOS is open source so I can rewrite it. A bios would be pretty complicated, but maybe load a program into memory that does this [forces the checks to pass] before the actual Windows bootloader kicks in. What I mean is some kind of a layer between hardware and Windows. I'm not experienced enough to write such code, but I think it should be possible."

To sum things up, I am proposing that if the proper code were loaded into memory to force the ram checks and pci bus scan to pass, as well as support the NTFS file structure, we should be at least one GIANT step forward in running Windows on our Xbox EFFICIENTLY. GreenGiant is working on a project for me that will allow remote HDD switching, you will be able to reconfigure settings such as button 1 will boot hard drive 1, bios bank 2, dvd drive 2, etc. through a program run on the Xbox. This will work by storing the settings to memory on either a SmartXX or Xenium chip. I do not know why it will work on those chips, but those were the examples he gave me when explaining how it works, but I do know it will require a modchip. This is relevant because it proves that it is possible to establish the "layer between hardware and Windows" explained by Scan-C. Further, this also proves that it will boot the information stored to memory before the Windows bootloader. That said, I am trying to gather other useful information that may either support, or prove this idea impossible, or to not be a feasible solution. ANY insight on this idea will help. We need to know things such as:

Do you think this will work? Why?/Why not?
Do you think this is a good idea? Why?/Why not?
Are there any conflicts you know of which will cause problems getting this to work?
Do you have the skills to get a start/help on this project?
Do you know anyone that has the necessary skills to get a start/help with this project?
Do you have any information that will help with the project?

Regards,
-H8raid

wow i almost forgot about this.
as is said we would need some kind of layer. i don't know enough about what windows is doing at boot time. if it erases everything stored in the ram our layer would also be deleted.
someone who knows what windows exactly does while it's loading?

for the ntfs filesystem... this won't be a problem. once the windows setup is running it can reformat the hdd to fat32 which cromwell supports. isn't ideal if you still want to be able to play xbox games but that's a problem you can think about when windows is at least booting up.

as for storing things on a mod... the smartxx and xenium have some kind of os and this let's you choose which drive to power over their spi bus with some additional hardware. at least that is what i think greengiatn trys to accomplish. this won't work for the needed layer tho...

Thanks for the additional information. I realize that Windows will make the NTFS partition, what I was saying is that I do not know if the Xbox hardware will support the file structure, only questioning this because I know currently we have to have a FATX partition to use upgraded hard drives. As for being able to play games still, like you said this issue can be addressed later, it is already solved for me through the project GreenGiant is working on to allow remote HDD switching. I had not thought about Windows wiping our layer. Since what we would be doing is forcing it to send a response back telling Windows that the checks passed, wouldn't it be possible to write protect our layer, or just do the same thing with the wipe if this is what it does. What I mean is, not allow Windows to wipe the memory, then send a generated response back that it wiped successfully. This is of course assuming that Windows actually does wipe the memory entirely. Once we get our research, thoughts, ideas, suggestions, conflicts, comments, etc. together, we need to approach somebody with the skills necessary to at the very least get a start on the project. We have tried all the other possibilities with no luck or "real" progress besides a very poorly running Windows, it's time to do things right and get this project off the ground.

EDIT: Almost forgot this, if anybody knows of GOOD forums regarding Windows that would help us compile the information we need to know about the boot processes, please don't hesitate to post. If you are interested in helping gather information for the project so we can get things off the ground, PM me. Scan-C can I count you in? It seems like you are interested to see if this is the path to light or just another dead end. I am positive there is light at the end of this tunnel, we just have to generate the interest and have our facts together before attempting to make it happen!

no one should bother with ntfs for now. fat32 is easier and already implemented in cromwell. would be nice but can be done later too.

yes count me in. i'm a linux fanatic but this is a challenge and it would be nice to get it going.

the thing about the boot process makes me think of a version we want to try. i think windows 2000 prof would be best here. isn't outdated but doesn't need as much resources as xp.

UPDATE! Scan-C has done some work already gathering information about the boot processes and has done some analyzing of exactly what happens. I am attempting to contact Xantium to inform him of the project to hopefully get more people involved here. Come on coders, everybody has said running Windows on the Xbox smoothly would never happen. This is going to be a huge breakthrough and your chance to show your skills if you haven't already had the opportunity, get involved!

alright, i think this is a great project being started here. First let me say i think we should work on embedded rather then xp.. because we can then code it ourself, and it doesn't take NEAR as many resources then even win95 to run.. and no extra services, just what we need.. only problem is that we would need experienced coders to code embedded to work properly..

if i can help in any way pm me.. ive been taking "coding class" at the UofC for a year and a half now and im not bad in the coding part but ive never coded xboxs before... seriously.. great project and i really hope we can get windows running on the box in some way!

nice to have you on the project.

for embedded i already told h8raid that it would be illegal to release it without license. that was my main reason to pick 2000. it's up to date, can do anything that xp can and everyone can buy it. if we can develop some kind of bootloader which runs in cromwell everyone could download our code completely legal and install their copy of 2000.
on the other side xpe would be running at great speed and maybe we could leave out the pci bus scan (don't know for sure).
some kind of hard decision

so theres no way we can use embedded on the xbox legaly? because that would beet linux in a second if we got it working properly.. maybe we could bend the rules never know.. but everything else is illegal for the xbox anywayz, but well have to see.

not really. everyone would have to get their own license. the same goes for 2000 or any other windows version but xpe is expensive compared to 2000. as for beating linux... i don't think so. xpe is fast but the memory management still sucks.

h8raid and i talked about xpe and 2000 pro. don't know if he already told you what we want to use but i think he wrote something like that.

why not use a final beta version of win2000 or embedded, osbetaarchive.com have talked to MS and ms says its ok to download and install betas so long as no money is paid for the beta.

I have a copy of the windows 2000 source if needed

the source code that was leaked is for servicepack 1,it is not the source code for windows 2000.

Chech this out.
http://msdn.MS.com/library/default....tml/ram_sdi.asp
Why don't make a XP Embedded image, put it in a xbe and ram boot it.

thats what i was thinking!! BY THE WAY! im taking a programming course at the university and theres a kid in my class thats 13 years old and hes a t.a for us and knows more then half the teachers in the university about programming.. Im trying to get him involved and he seems interested but hes never used an xbox before and knows nothing about them, but i think he could pick up quick, and get this thing rolling!

Wow! I have been in classes all this week so have not checked the thread recently. Glad to see this project is generating interest, pm me with your credentials to get onboard with the team. Fire, definately keep trying to get that boy involved, haha, sounds like he would be an asset. If needbe, you could always show him around your xbox so he can get familiar with things, and we can get him on these forums so he can check things out and get to know how things work. There is a wealth of information on these boards, and really just reading up on the boards would help immensely. Klik, good idea, that is basically what we are attempting. What we are doing is establishing a layer between hardware and Windows to solve the problems that are causing the Xbox to lock up. I think it was already discussed earlier in this thread, so in a nutshell, Windows runs checks that cause the Xbox to crash. Our layer will stop these checks before they run and force a response back telling Windows that it passed. I am sure we are going to run into several other issues along the way, but this is a starting point. Also, I would like to make not to everybody that the "other project" mentioned on this board by the_devil73 about hacking a bios. I got a response from him after inquiring about their progress and informing them of this project. Funny stuff going on there, the guy is obviously full of shit and to my knowledge HAS NO PROGRESS, he told me they are on a 10 million dollar budget and paying coders. They also, told me they are a group of seniors and 3 willing teachers. The person who responded stated he is only 16. I don't know something about a team like that having a 10 million dollar budget just sounds like a load of shit, he refused to communicate anything feasible that they had progressed on, talking about such things as they are working on using sections of the 2000 source to build their own version of Xbox-Windows, codenamed XWindows. Lol! Come on, then telling about hacking a PC based bios to run windows on the Xbox :::cough::: bullshit :::cough::: Scan-C if you still have the PM that I forwarded to you, would you please post it in here for all to see, if you don't want to, just send it back to me and I will do it. Thanks.

Don't thread crap.

MS Corp. today announced the availability of a free technology preview for Windows XP Embedded with Service Pack 2 (SP2) for download and testing. Windows XP Embedded delivers the power of Windows in componentized form to enable device-makers to rapidly build reliable and advanced small-footprint devices such as point-of-service (POS) kiosks, medical systems and thin clients.

Windows XP Embedded with SP2 Technology Preview is available for download via the Windows Embedded Web site. Delivering on MS's commitment to make new Windows XP Embedded technologies available within 90 days of the client release, Windows XP Embedded SP2 will ship in the second half of 2004.
http://www.MS.com/downloads/details...&displaylang=en

Nice update on the latest release, I will head over there and check it out. We have decided to go ahead and work with XP Embedded exactly for the reasons mentioned above. It is a perfect platform for our goals, we want a stable uncluttered environment that will run efficiently. At the same time this platform will also support everything you will get with XP, only with Embedded, you have more control over things at startup, thus giving you a more powerful operating system.

Windows PE could be the first step. It is Windows Preinstallation Environment. It comes with every XP installation disk. But you need extract it out with some script and tools. A great tool for recovery if your XP die.
It is supposed to run on any hardware and have most funtionalities of XP. It can be used to run Target Analyzer(MS XP embedded site has an article about it). But it is pretty large(150M) so it is impossible to boot from RAM. Maybe someone can turn CD boot sector code into a XBE, then put every thing on to a CD and let XBox boot it. I suppose Windows PE can read file from the CD if the CD is in ISO format. Now the only obstacle is that XBOX crashes when Windows scans PCI bus. Maybe someone could change a few bytes in Windows binary

you need a custom bios for the xbox to boot winPE,trust me ,people have allready tried, it looks like a custom cromwell bios would be the best bet.

alright then, our next step is to get some bios coders because this sounds like the biggest obstical

Alright guys, this is sort of unrelated, but the headline right now about Mac OS running is interesting news to say the least. I realize the two OS are completely different, however, the techniques these guys used are interesting. Check out their site and review some of their works. It would be nice if we may be able to find a similar solution to what these guys have done. I am going to do some research on pearPC to see exactly what it is. I am assuming it is a Mac tool, and unfortunately, I am not familiar at all with Mac. My goal here is to see what exact role that portion of their install plays, the way their site reads, it sets up the installation environment. It will be interesting to see what is really going on more in depth with their installation of the Mac OS. Once again, I realize the two OS are completely different, I am only suggesting their methods of installation may be worth taking a look at, I do not expect it to be a solution for us to do something similar, however, their methods could very well be tweaked to suit our needs and make things a bit easier on our part. Let's get some feedback on this, I am going to go ahead and start researching, if anybody is more knowledgable, please give us your input in this thread.
Edit: Oops, forgot about something else that was recently brought up in the thread. Scan-C and I had previously discussed the possibility of a modified Cromwell bios to boot. It is true that the bios would be the most effective way to get things working, however, there are other things which I am sure Fire knows to be a bigger problem with this idea. The amount and complexity of the coding would be insane, and would most likely make the solution extremely difficult at best to implement. If there is anybody that would like to get onboard with the team and start working on this idea, please send a PM. The thing that needs to be realized is that there are underlying obstacles we are currently unaware of with getting Windows to run. What this means is that our first project may work, but it may get to a certain point, and an alternate route must be taken. For this reason, I would like to see a few different approaches to this project, this will establish a few key things. It will allow members of the team to learn what is going on with the installation from different perspectives which will help when another part of the team reaches a stopping point. Hopefully, the knowledge gained from one side of the project will help solve problems later on, and we will end up with a few solutions to the problem whether than just having one way to do things. This in turn, will make for a more successful project in my opinion as it would be more versatile in the end.
Regards,
-H8raid

thought thesemight help, differences between ms fat and fatx ,http://www.xbox-linux.org/docs/msbios.html understanding the xbox bootprocess,http://www.xbox-linux.org/docs/msbios.html

RE: mac osx on xbox,they are just using pear-pc for linux, if you need info about mac-osx more just ask.

pearpc is only a powerpc emulator. would be like we are using vmware and tell we got windows running.

h8raid and i were discussing about remote booting xpe as cromwell supports the pxe remote boot client. i'm looking over this right now and i want to at least get cromwell to catch the image file.
the idea with a bootloader xbe which acts as cdrom boot sector sounds pretty good to me. we should at least be able to get pe showing a system message before it crashes. anyone who could code such xbe?

h8raid, i saw your post just now. was really busy as you know.

Haha, I have been really busy myself with these classes, thanks for posting that I was looking for it in my PMs but its gotten lost, lol. Also, after I started looking into PearPC that's what I found out, so that shoots down that idea. Looks like they just did the same thing people are doing to run windows through bochs only with their own stuff instead. Oh well, I also like the idea of a bootloader xbe as well. Also just to let everyone know, betaluva is going to be helping out, mostly he will be researching and maintaining the thread. Meanwhile, xantium still has not responded so I am assuming he is not interested in the project. Looking for programmers! We need a classified ad on X-S homepage. Well, if anybody knows any programmers/wants to help recruit, we need the extra help.
Regards,
-H8raid

yea we do need an add on the x-s home page, say like windows on xbox project brought back into play, we need experienced xbox coders that would like to help with the project.

oh and by the way, yes embedded will take alot to code... right now im looking at images of embedded that other people have coded that might relate to the xbox a little more, then we may be able to work from that

There is award bios source floating around p2p. Maybe that one could be referenced instead of cromwell bios.

With regard to the bios source floating around. We should definately have somebody looking at this. Scan-C I know you said you are on it, lol, keep us posted on it. I will agree that bios seems like the best way to get the job done, but will also be the most difficult. If the Cromwell source can be extracted and the Award source can be extracted, we may be able to get somewhere like that. So basically extract the source then, break it down and compare differences. Then go ahead and do what Scan-C said and use bits and pieces of the different source to build yourself a nice modified Cromwell bootloader! Now if only it were that easy. Anybody feel like trying to get a clipping up on X-S with the latest news, they would probably let us post a news clipping on the homepage. That would be cool because with a link to this thread, tons of traffic because X-S news goes out on tons of RSS feeds, and other sites have it linked to the high heavens. Lots of advertisement to coders needed! Well, whoever wants to take on this task just let me know.
Regards,
-H8raid

i already looked over code i extracted from an award bios. doesn't help much i think. we need an award bios that's used on a nvidia nforce motherboard and my researches brought up that amibios is used everytime. if someone knows of a motherboard using the nforce chipset together with an award bios let me know!!!

btw cromwell is open source so it doesn't need to be extracted.

i have 2 apps if you want them ,app1=IND BIOS 500,

Release info:
-------------

We are a group of xbox enthusiasts that just wasnt satisfied in how far BIOS
development has come, and decided to take matters into our own hands.
Basically, we went through the current bioses feature lists, and the requested
bios hacks thread on forums.xbox-scene.com, and implemented all that we could.
We are open to most feature suggestions, especially if you feel that you can
help implement them. We are aware of 2 of the most requested features that we
have not done; xbox live hack, and embedded ftp. The former we will not be
touching, sorry. As for the later, never say never!

We know how many people love to customize their bios to fit their exact needs,
and we made an effort to make every option that we could configurable. All of
the configurable options are controlled by a .cfg file (ini style) on the
xbox hard drive. We have included a win32 application that will edit this
file for you, which should eleminate user error for the most part.

Loading the config file from the disk requires a short delay while the IDE is
initialized. If you don't like the delay you can inject your config file into
the BIOS with our ConfigInjector tool. Note that an injected config does have
its disadvantages. Please see the ConfigInjector readme.txt for more info.

Please remember that this is our first public release, and bugs are expected.
Please report all bugs in the bios forum, on forums.xbox-scene.com, or #ind-bios
on EFnet.

and app2 =KernelBasher 1.0

Instructions
O.k launch kernelbasher and open the bios you wish to edit. 4981,4983 & M7 are supported in this release, might work with other bioses, might not. Select Patch to save, outputted bios is called bashed.bin.

Improvements/Additions

- RGB Sliders
- Improved xfile & bios validation
- Random Camera Animation
- Lots of X files to play with

all motherboards that use the nforce chip,http://www.nvidia.com/object/motherboards.html

Nice work Scan-C! I did a little googling and the very first page I saw seems like it has at least the information you are looking for about an award bios based on the nforce chipset. What exactly are your thoughts here? I am assuming you are going to see if you can extract pieces of the bios and fit them into the Cromwell, but doesn't Cromwell already have this? I honestly don't know myself, but it would seem like it would already be there, unless you want to modify what's already there so it will pass the checks? I am a little lost on this one, but I get the general idea of what you are trying to accomplish. Anyway, here is the link to the site, close to the end it says the bios is based on Award 6.00 or something like that.

Hope this is what you need!

Regards,
-H8raid

EDIT: Here is an excerpt from that site that is actually quite interesting for our purposes and seems that it would prove very useful if we can obtain the source.

The BIOS is based on the v6.00 from Award and includes a great deal of possibilities for adjusting memory timings, AGP and PCI buses operation and a possibility to distribute manually interrupts among PCI slots. The FSB frequency can be changed from 100 to 200 MHz in 1 MHz steps. The core voltage can be changed +/- 0.1V in 0.025V steps and the memory voltage can be lifted by 0.7V from the rated value in 0.1V increments.

duh -.- i must've used the wrong keywords or something.
thanks i'll look if my idea is possible with this one. i'm thinking how hard it is to modify a bios to start the xbox. the nforce boards seem to be nearly the same so i wanted to at least look at it.

Great! I am looking forward to hearing your results. I got really excited when I read this part "The BIOS is based on the v6.00 from Award and includes a great deal of possibilities for adjusting memory timings, AGP and PCI buses operation and a possibility to distribute manually interrupts among PCI slots." If you could elaborate on this a bit, to me it looks like it is exactly what we need. Control over the PCI operation because we know the PCI bus scan Windows does causes the Xbox to crash. Depending on your results of whether or not we can use anything here or not, that should at least get us over one major hurdle. Scan-C, you should send me a PM I just realized something funny that I am guessing you are realizing too. Anywho, if this works out it will be exactly the kind of progress we need to get more interest and get other experienced coders on the project so you won't be by yourself anymore, haha. Alright well it's 8:00 am here now and I have not been to bed yet so I am out like a fat kid in dodgeball.
Regards,
-H8raid

Anyone thought about using OpenXDK to develop a free BootLoader. I Have a lot of Experience in Win32 if this project gets going.

I think we should make a list of ToDo's.

got a little progress! the kid at the university wants his xbox modded this weekend so hes bringing it to me.. hes also been looking at embedded quite a bit and i might have him on the team in the next week! im going to some more research on embedded this week and see what i can come up with by tuesday.


oh by the way if anyone wants to hear something postive

off the MS website, an embedded discussion

@Code-X, welcome to the team. We are working hard to get things moving here. As you can see from the thread, we have been doing our homework before starting anything so we don't end up going down a dead-end road. To get more details on the progress, contact fire and scan. Scan-C is on a business trip this week so he will most likely not be heard from until he is back from that. We talked before he left and he is hoping to get in touch with some people on his trip that would be able to help us out so we might have a few more on board when he gets back! I am pleased to be able to say we are getting things done, if you want to start on a todo list, that is an excellent idea. We could also use a site if anybody wants to allow us to use a server. Unfortunately, my internet is down for the moment, modem crapped out two days ago. So in order for me to do anything, I have to use other peoples connections. Also, please note that we are doing everything possible to keep this project legal, the bios ideas that were discussed are not going to be used for any public releases, the only reason this would even be attempted would be if it would be easier to get it to work initially so we can go ahead and get through the process and learn from it then go ahead and tackle the rest of the bootloader.

@Fire, glad to hear that we are not attempting anything in vein. I know for sure I would be able to run it when my box gets back from Friendtech. The next time I see her, she is going to have 128Mb ram and a nice 1.4Ghz processor. Sucks for game compatibility, but for our reasons, it is perrrrrrfect. After they get more of these boxes out to the public, I look for somebody to do some developing and fix at least some of the game compatibility issues. Any ideas on this would be awesome, but that would be another project altogether, and in the meantime, I will certainly just get a new box and use that one for my games and my faster box for my media server/Windows/whatever else would need the extra power. Anywho, once again, glad to see the progress and updates here.

Regards,
-H8raid

i thought this site might be helpfull,http://www.xfactordev.net/

i was just thinking,we need a name for this project,how about WinBox or Windox?

yea winbox is alright good enough for me..

Agreed, I like winbox

i dont if it matters but winbox is allready taken, WINBOX email client,http://www.winbox.com/

How bout just using 'Xindows"?? That's kinda catchy anyway. Or maybe even "Xbindows"

Well I guess Winbox is out of the question then, Xindows is also already taken by a group that is VERY SECRETIVELY working to get Windows running on the Xbox. I don't know we are going to have to come up with a name for it sooner or later, any other ideas?

With the latest news on the media center extender for the Xbox it is going to be interesting to see exactly what comes out of that whole deal. Maybe M$ will actually provide some answers in their own release of that software.....unless we beat them to it. Unfortunately I would imagine it will be nothing more than a frontend to MCE because of the fact that M$ will obviously not support upgraded hard drives. The only reason I am even suggesting that they may actually give us some answers with this software is that it will undoubtedly have to utilize some form of bootloader embedded into the .xbe file. Unless of course their goal is to take the focus from XBMC and attempt to profit off of their work. After all, XBMC can already be set up to work as a frontend to MCE, just not the way I would imagine M$ doing it. Who knows, I guess we will have to see what happens and cross that bridge when the time comes.

how about, windbox,osbox,windobox,billgbox(LOL!),xpbox,winntbox,fatx-os-box,pcbox ?

xbox controller driver for windows,http://www.redcl0ud.com/xbcd.html