Any "fixes" made are just to humor the public and quiet anxieties by people who know nothing about electronics.

THERE IS NO PROBLEM, AND A RESISTOR IS NOT NEEDED. It is an extra step that you are taking, that doesn't help anything.

Look, I am an electronics engineer, retired from the US Air Force, where I worked with sensitive aviation weaponry circuitry for the last 20 years. You can not test the LFRAME circuit with a multimeter or a general-purpose oscilloscope. You need logic analyzers and a sampling scope, something around 2GHz and at least 8GS/s.

What I can tell you is that the LFRAME circuit is based on an OPEN COLLECTOR design (Google that term if you don't know what it means) and therefore simply the presence or absence of voltage means nothing. Not to mention the fact that the motherboard already has a 10k pullup resistor on that circuit...

Geeze. This whole thing started by someone's speculation, not on actual facts. Have ANY motherboards actually shown up that have been damaged by this yet? No... and there won't be any either. All of you that are hacking up your motherboard traces and installing resistors are just following a paranoid suspicion based on speculation rather than conclusive facts revealed by a proper scientific approach by properly trained personnel. You are more likely to damage your console yourself rather than the subject of this topic...

Unless you have access to the circuit diagram you know nothing of what the design is you also don't know if there is a pull up resistor in this circuit because you can not tell by looking at the Xbox motherboard excatly what the design is. So unless you have access to that circuit diagram you are guessing whatever you want to claim, just as a lot of the other theory is based on speculation.
Yes I do know what an open collector design is and I don't need google to tell me but I don't know any more than you do if that type of design is employed. If you can deduce the circuit layout fo a multilayer PCB by looking at it then you truly are a superman.

You don't know this either anymore than anyone else does!!
Before you ask yes I do know about electronics I have a C&G 224 and an HNC in electronics as well as a formal 5 year apprenticeship and 28 years experience in the trade.
State facts of how you KNOW the design of the circuit and I may take more notice of you because at the moment you are guessing just like the rest of us.

Cap, do you want to explain the massive current that flows without the resistor then.. 68mA? Hmm..

I have not seen in detail the "fix" that was released by Smartxx so cannot comment on what they have done and whether it is just to humour the public or not. To my knowledge no other team has released a fix - they just *claim* it is not a problem due to pulsing of LFRAME.

I am assuming this is justified by your open collector comment below? Even if it doesn't help anything, when done properly it also doesn't have any bad effects.

I have just repeated the original tests using a 2.5GS/s digital scope so that I can provide screenshots online (previous scope did not have the ability to transfer screen to PC). Since the clock is running at 33MHz I find your 2GHz bandwidth requirement very exagerated - the 200MHz capability of this scope is more that sufficient (please explain your reasoning?).

While the xbox is booting when the LPC bus is active then yes a standard multimeter is not capable of providing a meaningful reading. However, after booting when the bus is idle a multimeter will provide a good indication of the voltage and current.

Can you please justify this claim.
-a 10k pull up resistor on a 33MHz data line?? Even the smallest amount of capacitance would introduce problems with the risetime of the digital signal.
-the maximum current that could be drawn would be 3.3V/10k = 0.33mA. This is not the case - the current (when the bus is idle) is over 60mA.

Measuring the resistance between Vcc and LFRAME results in 10k so no other resistors are being used to pull up the line. Cutting the LFRAME trace before the pull up resistor and measuring the currents results in:
LFRAME (from MCPX) to GND -> 61.5mA
LFRAME (from xyclops and pullup resistor) to GND -> 0.33mA

this clearly shows an active driver is being used to drive the line.


You have no idea of my level of training and equipment used, so how can you claim that I am not "properly trained personnel"? I don't have access to the xbox schematics/datasheets - but very few people do and this hasn't stopped xbox mod development. The fact remains that there is 60mA being drawn from a single 3.3V digital line. The issue is whether this is high enough to cause long term damage or not, to which I can only provide an educated guess by comparing to maximum ratings of other common devices.

Regarding motherboards dying, plenty of v1.0 motherboards have died due to the MCPX failing. Drawing more current from this can only increase the already existing failure rate - wait for a year or so and then we will see how many motherboards have died. I have already stated that this problem is "long term" - read the title of the thread. I dont anticipate instant failure. I, along with many others, don't want to have to buy a new xbox every year due to a problem which can be prevented.

Yes cutting the trace on the motherboard is dangerous and can cause more problems than it solves when done without care. But this provides an option for those who want to do it, and it works well when done carefully. As with all xbox mods, it is done at the users own risk and can damage the xbox. Ideally the modchip developers would tristate the LFRAME line when it is not in use and there would be no problem at all - note that hippo has already shown this can successfully be done.

Come on cap269 you made some bold statements now back them up.

Cat got your tongue cap269?

No, the cat doesn't have my tongue. I don't feel the need to "back up" or prove anything I've said. Mark my words. What I have stated will be corroborated by others in the months to come. I've already stated all I care to about this topic. I stand on what I have said, and do not retract any part of it. I have not meant my posts in this thread to challenge anyone's expertise or to step on anyone's toes. I have simply stated my position on this topic, according to the education and experience that I have, and it is my right to state it the way I have. If you don't believe what I said, or any part or parcel of it, that is your right to do so, just as it was my right to say it in the first place. I still firmly believe that this mod is totally unnecessary, and in the hands of the electronically unskilled, it increases the chances of disaster. That's all I am going to say. The end.

whilst i have nowhere near the electronic expertise of many posters on this topic, i do have a basic knowedge (hnc) and a quest for more. a lot i read i know is crap, some sounds crap but is in fact true. my point is... without an explanation i have nothing to base a judgement on. i thank you catdog, chancer and more for providing me with an honest well presented source of information on which to make MY decision. if you are wrong... then you did your best to help and it was MY decision.
by the way, for any one new, cutting the trace is the easiest bit and requires no real knowledge of electronics.... and i shake like a bloody leaf mate. bump.

Ok, so I've read the entire tread and feel like I'm back where I started. I will just ignore this issue, install a X3 chip as I've already planned and cross my fingers. I can always install a resistor in a couple of months if I deem it necessary.

Still, a very interesting tread.

The X3 holds the LFRAME signal low despite what they state on the xecuter page. The Xenium ICE does this as well - they also claimed that it was pulsed low. I will provide screenshots tonight or tomorrow to show this.

Does this only concern v1.6 xboxs, or is there something similar like this that will effect the v1.1???

Due to the confusion about whether the X3 and xenium ICE suffer from this problem, I finally got hold of these chips myself to test, read on...

First up, this is what the LFRAME signal looks like with no modchip installed.

A zoomed in view with the 33MHz clock shown as a reference:


A zoomed out view with one of the data lines as a reference:


What this shows is that the LFRAME line is normally high (3.3V) and is only pulsed low when it is in use (during the short time that the bios is loading). After the xbox has booted it is in a high state.

I fully installed an X3, used the alternate 5V point, and installed the DVD/harddrive so the xbox was fully working. I used the latest bios version available (1959). Here are the screenshots:




This shows that the X3 holds LFRAME low, and it is not pulsed as they have stated. Note that in this case 'low' is ~0.8V and not 0.0V
I measured the current flow once the xbox had booted: 51mA

Next up was the Xenium ICE, again with the DVD/harddrive installed so that the xbox was fully working. After quite a battle to get the OS updated to the latest version (I ended up putting it in a non 1.6 xbox before it would update??), I finally captured the following screenshots of the OS and also loading a bios (M8_16):




Again LFRAME is held low rather than being pulsed as they have led us to believe. The xenium ICE pulls the voltage very close to 0.0V, and therefore generates a larger current flowing from the MCPX.

This LFRAME problem is an issue for the X3 and Xenium ICE

The information provided here (as it was from the beginning) is to provide awareness to a possible problem and one possible solution. Testing on these two chips was done due to the number of requests and confusion about them. It is not here to defame any particular modchip teams (as far as I am concerned they achieved that on their own with the manner they responded to the topic). Smartxx have released a product which apparently deals with this issue, so I have not tested it here. Aladdin chips do hold the line low and since this hasn't been disputed I havn't seen the need to spend time showing it.

As stated many times throughout the thread CUTTING THE TRACE IS DONE AT YOUR OWN RISK and can damage the motherboard if not done carefully.

On v1.0-1.5 xboxs the current is only very brief (much less than 1/10 of a second) rather than continuously flowing, so it is not a problem.
(Also it is from the TSOP rather than the MCPX - so even if it could be a problem a modchip would still allow the xbox to work if the TSOP was damaged).

catdog2: Thanks for the info!

i think your all paranoid. cap269 has experince in this area, and he says that there is no problem. and from what logical observations i hav emade, i cant see why there would be any issues.

If this really is something that will blow up in v1.6 boxes, exactly what will fail? One component, a series of components, the whole MB? Or the modchip?

Have anyone actually had any xboxes die because of this?

CATDOG,
When I did my tests using the XBIT I saw similar results. During normal operation the pulsing of LFrame was there durring boot and when idle at the dash. When the modchip was on though, I didn't see the drop to 0v on the LFrame. The pulsing was still there, and the voltage went up by aprox. .7v. I posted my results earlier here. I was currious if you have seen them? I don't have that box anymore, but I'll have another 1.6 this weekend or next that I can test with again.

TFP

Ok, now we have a new SmartXX rebuild board that addresses this.. Looks like a couple of resistors and a tansistor inline on LFRAME:



Anybody have any ideas/thoughts on this?

So...

Here are the first victims.
http://www.allegro.pl/show_item.php?item=39900101
Most of ya surely doesn't understand polish, but the guy writes: "the mobo was working before chip installation, and after that it won't work anymore". And some blahblahblahs .

My friend who is a pro modder (min. 10 boxes a week) has also received 2 dead 1.6s with Aladdin chips (he soldered them before he get knew that grounding the LFRAME kills boxes). Most probably the MCPX is dead.

What can I say ? I'm glad that I've soldered an SST cheap, tight-ass to a 1.6 .

before i write my post, i just want to ask that you don't bash me for writing this first post like done to others. yes, this is my first post here, but i've been lurking and reading here for a while already and just haven't really had anything to say until now.

anyways, what i wanted to ask was, has the 1.6 motherboard been tested to verify the d0 grounding is cause of this problem? and on the other ones was it tested to find out that the mcpx failed because of the d0 grounding? i have read in other threads that there is a problem with a transistor going bad during installation, and that there have been other different failures of the 1.6 motherboards due to the redesign that are not caused by this issue of grounding the d0. i didn't realize anyone had enforced the statement "grounding the LFRAME kills boxes" yet. this is important to me because i have a 1.6 that i got at christmas and have been waiting to mod it until there is a resolution i am comfortable with regarding this issue. i don't like the idea of doing unneeded mods but i don't want my brand-new console to be harmed either. i am currently using a chipped 1.0 that i've had for two years, and it doesn't seem to have any problems with anything. maybe i just won't mod the 1.6.

http://www.xbox-scene.com/xbox1data/sep/EE...ylkZbCFxIId.php

I for one will be buying one. Im just curious if it will work on the x3

however if its the same as the 1.6b

https://www.bmmods.com/customer/product.php...&cat=257&page=1


it will not work on the x3

Well, I may be wrong, and I have not bothered to actually read anything about it yet, but from the picture it looks like this to me: (quick and none technical description :-)

Lframe on the motherboard is conencted to the transistor.

D0 from the chip is conencted to a pull up-resisotr (3.3v) and to the transistor.

3.3v is conencted to the transistor.

When chip is pulling D0 low, the transistor sends power to the Lframe, pulling it up på 3.3v instead of lovering it to 0v.

That doesn't sound right ... the transistor should be conducting when it has base signal. Then again, i have no idea what transistor it is, or what leg-config it is using.

But could it really be that simple? Just holding it high instead of pulling it low to extinguish the Lframe pulses?

In any case, the D0 of the chip is never straightly conencted to the Lframe of the box. And we have 3.3v power in to it on one corner.

Anyway, it's late at night, and I am once again up, not sleeping, even though I should be asleep already. I may be very wrong also.

I will meassure as soon as I get thease boards in.

Your "quick and none technical" description pretty much matches my first impression of what they have done (as best I can tell from the picture provided).

Yes pulling LFRAME high instead of low will allow the modchip to load (all that needs to be done is to remove the LFRAME pulses from reaching the onboard LPC device). To hazard a guess I would have to say it is a PNP transistor with a pullup resistor to turn it off when not in use (or no modchip installed), and the second resistor limits the transistor's base current when the modchip is on. If it is indeed configured like this, it is a simple and yet effective fix from the smartxx team.

It will be interesting to see one of these boards when they start shipping.

Good point, but someone has written that it shortens Xbox' life... I will be investigating it by my friends- modders . Anyway: the boxes are fragging and all of them were chipped with Aladdin and LFRAME was grounded. ButI believe that they're really dead...

Have modded many 1.6s and havent killed 1 yet. I dont cut the L frame or use resistors. I have never had a problem.

i got a question about adding the resistor. I noticed that the resistor is being placed between 2 vias on the back of the board, correct? One of those VIAs (the one on the left found in THIS PICTURE is being used as an alternate D0 point. Meaning in the case of the x2/x3 the gray wire is soldered to the via on the left, as seen in the tutorial pic on teamX's siteHERE

So...my confusion, if you wire the gray wire to that via, where does the resistor go? do you solder the gray wire to the resitor or something...or am i reading those pictures wrong??

thanks

Also as a major installer... I have not seen any dead xbox syndrom due to this 'so called' problem yet.
So far its all theory.. no hard proof..

Yes the line is held low on the X3 and Xenium chips i tested.
But..
Everything dies eventually and if you get 2 years out of the xbox/modchip..you're still ahead..

I'll update this post should i see any returns for this issue.. so far NONE.. NOT EVEN ONE.

jROC

That one quote proves how little you really know about electronics. Sticking modchips in Games machines does not make you some kind of electronics wizard. I hope you tell your customers that the modchip and their Xbox will "Die eventually"
Maybe some will pack in maybe they won't and you certainly won't know yet anyway as the possible effects would be long term, dependant on use, enviroment used in etc.
One thing I am certain of is if you get a dead xbox 1.6 you will not without a relevant circuit diagram be able to tell if the failure is random or down to the fact you didn't fit the resistor. Don't do the mod nobody cares if it backfires on you, just don't bleat about it later.
To anyone who reads this if you read what catdog2 has written you will see is making a suggestion based on actual measurments, he is trying to prevent something its an idea its not forcing you to follow it but the amount of negative comments his post has received from people with no back up or proof that it does not do long term damage smacks a little of jealousy because you did not think of the idea.

ok correct me if im wrong but according to this diagram of the x3 rebuild board


X3 board



smartxx board




the smartxx board wont work? Is this correct can some one confirm

I've done over 30 1.6( xbox-s lately and theres still not a single one dead.
All modded with x2.6 and x3.0
Havent seen any proof whatsoever that this phenomenon kills xbox's life expactancy. One thing i learned in my years of modding is that its pretty hard to kill an xbox beyond repairing.
We'll see what the future brings about this topic.
Let's hope not to much or i will be seeing 30 xbox's back in a half yr.

anybody?

just wanted to let everyone know that the smartxx lt opx chip is already shipping from bmmods and i already have one in my 1.6 xbox and its working great...

no idea about the d0 issuse

you guys are all still paranoid. this isnt a problem, never has been a problem, and never will be a problem

Catdog2, have you done the same testing with the DuoX2 as with the X3 and xenium ICE? (diagrams/Screenshots)
It was stated that the DuoX pulses LFRAME, but I recently saw in some thread that it might not, now I'm a bit confused on this issue if it does pulse or not.

Oh and I also wonder if this statement from the 1st posts is still valid, or if some chips have been added/removed:

Hi there,

I have just ordered an Xecuter 2.6 chip whic has not yet arrived. I will be installing the chip in a friends xbox.

The compnay i ordered the chip from are going to send what they call a v1.6 LPC Rebuild. I originally thought this was just to make the cip work with V1.6, but is there any chance this device could solve the current problem?

A picture fo the device can be seen here

I've done at least over 200 v1.6 installs since 3/19/04 (w/ X2.6 and X3) with no resistor fix and have not had one come back bad. Nice preventive fix but I haven't decided on what I'm going to do yet.

Me either RoboChicken

I've done over 300 consoles and not one returned...
I first for sure v1.6 i modded was in July of 2004.... if not earlier.
I just don't have complete records prior to that.

jROC

one thigs for sure, if this is a problem, and only time will tell, you guys are gonna get a lot of calls!. were the 1,6 really out and chippable in july, they only seemed to appear in uk in dec. how old is m8 1_6 ??

M8 came out July 6, 2004. I had several 1.6 consoles to chip at that time and was just waiting for the bios to be released. The 1.6 was "cracked" by Team Xodus on May 7, 2004.

Bulan: I will be getting some duox2 in a week, so might look into those when I find some time.
Modchips which I personally know of:
Aladdin Advance, Aladdin XT Lite and Pro: Tested, holds LFRAME low
X3: Tested, holds LFRAME low
Xenium ICE: Tested, holds LFRAME low
Smartxx: Released a rebuild PCB to address the issue.

MasterCheif: That PCB makes no difference to the chip as far as this issue is concerned (it is exactly the same as using wires), and hence a high current will still flow.

RoboChicken: Good to see you understand it is a "preventative fix". Without detailed datasheets on the xbox components it is not possible to claim it is an absolute necessity (or that it is not needed at all). I doubt the dates you have given though, as the 1.6 was only manufactured then and no bios was available for quite a while.

have you looked to see if that smartxx board will work with the x3

OK, I am a little confused by this.
I am about to install an aladdin advance 32 on a 1.6. I want to be able to disable the modchip, so will put a switch between LFRAME and GND as well as between LAD0 on mobo and LPC. Do I just install as per the guide? (http://xbox.bula.nu/resistor_install_1.6.asp)

all this technical expertise floating around and nobody can gve me an answer?

I believe this has already been asked and answered in this thread.

1) cut trace
2) solder resistor as shown in diagram
3) solder wire to the via shown in x3 diagram (which already has the resistor soldered to it).

The X3 requires you to solder pins 13, 14, 15 to the LPC header (I2C data and clock, and 3.3V) which the smartxx doesn't use.

The smartxx board does not allow for this, so you would have to solder these pins flush with the surface of the motherboard otherwise the LPC rebuild PCB would not sit flat. Apart from the mechincal issues of these pins I think it should work, but its a matter of someone getting hold of one and trying it.

Instead of cutting the mboard, could I just add a small circuit to pulse the d0 line? I realize that this would cost a whole lot more than 1 resistor, but I was still interested.

Do you think this would work, (or something similar)? plz do not use this, as I know just enough electronics to get me into trouble.

So, if I installed an aladdin XT lite (4032) I don't have to worry about the high Lframe? or am I not understanding this?

I have to say that I bought the resistor and had every intention of adding it in, but the solder points are just too small for my skills with the solder iron.

The mod went VERY smoothly with the X3 on my 1.6, no complaints at all.

BUT, is there an alternate location to solder in the resistor? I'm aware of the spot on the top of the board overtop of the trace that would need cut, and the spot which happens to fall within the opening on the LPC rebuild on the bottom of the board. Obviously, cutting the trace isn't a problem, it's the resistor that worries me as I was starting to melt the board a bit and still couldn't get the solder to stick on the bottom there on the small contacts.

The potential "need" makes sense to me, but is there another point to solder to that would be easier to get to??? I have no problem running wire from the top to the bottom of the board if I could hit those point easier...

Thanks for any insight!

That wouldnt be hard to do soldering flush. I might have to give this a whirl. I would just need a diagram of how and what goes where

You are not understanding this. LFRAME is supposed to be high so it IS an issue because the Aladdin XT is pulling it low.

truBB: One version of the "magical circuit" is the smartxx rebuild PCB.