Should it work with 8161B?

As already been stated in this thread, the answer is no. Only the HL-DT-ST GRD-8163B may be used, because of internal hardware incompatibilities.

Thats bad, so it means that the drive is limited by firmware.
Its the same think like by the new samsung.
It has a good laser but it also didn´t read cdr´s

Sorry for my bad english i´m just a stupid german ;-)
I hope you can deciphering

Thank you for all of your hard work. Much appreciated brutha!

Any Downloads? As .torrent would be cool

Does the reflashed 8163B read X-DVD-s in PC?

Not the originals, alike a pc dvd drive, if you can get it to eject in a pc.

so have we got the pc version of the drive working in the xbox yet?

I'm trying to get xbins to accept it. I just got an email from GreenGiant saying "pass it onto Iriez and he should put it on Xbins for others to try", but yesterday Iriez seemed a bit dubious about it. I'll email Iriez again now.

No. As I understand it the Xbox sends special commands to the drive to get it to read original game discs and of course the PC doesn't know what those commands are.
The difference between the Xbox drive firmware and the PC drive firmware is basically the ability to understand these special commands.

Yes, but it's not "fully operational". There is a problem with (at least) the tray in and tray out signals (what you guys have been calling X and Y, I think). See my next post...

Oops! Ran afoul of the board's flood control with all these postings one after another.
Anyway, here's the slightly overdue update I promised about 48 hours ago now.

The good news is that the 8163B drive is working fine in the Xbox and I have found the TRAY IN and TRAY OUT signals (aka X and Y). The bad news is that they are 3.3V signals rather than 5V signals and that doesn't seem to be good enough for the Xbox circuitry. One of them also needs to be inverted.

Now I'm not much of an electronics engineer, but I think maybe there's some CMOS in there somewhere that needs the high level signal to be at least 4V or so. Not being much of an electronics engineer, I don't know what the best/simplest way to achieve this level conversion is. Any ideas anyone?

Well, I know a way that will work, but I'm sure someone else could find a better, easier way.

Parts
1 x Compact Reed Relay (Operational Voltage of 3.3 or less)
1 x +5V Fixed-Voltage Regulator
1 x NAND Gate

When the relay gets 3.3v it allows 5v from the regulator through for the signal. The NAND Gate can invert the second signal.

Iriez has now kindly put it up on xbins in the PC section.




Ah-ha. Interesting. We can probably pick up a "clean" 5V somewhere on the board and do without the regulator, too.

I've also been wondering for some time why you guys always talk about NAND gates. What's wrong with just using an inverter? I've been looking at some spec's and it seems to me that a 7405 (or some variant of it) would do the trick. The drawback is that to get the relatively high output voltage we'd need an open-collector device (which is what the 7405 is), and that means external pull-up resistors are required.

For the signal that needs to be inverted (tray in, from memory -- dunno whether that's X or Y in the alphabet naming system) you just run it through one inverter, and for the other one (tray out) you invert it twice to get back where you started (but at a higher voltage). Since the 7405 has six inverters per chip this still only uses up half the capacity of a single chip.

I think I'll try to pick up a 7405 (or three -- they're only a couple of bucks each) and I'll have a look at relays too because that might be simpler than having to worry about six pullup resistors.

just some t houghts on the inversion of the signals and method of upping voltages.

As far as the relay goes - is a 5v relay going to be available in a small enough package that it could be fit inside the drive chasis? I've only seen relays with these specs in quite large sizes...
I would think it would make more sense to use a transistor to supply the 5v from the smaller 3v signal... and package size shouldn't be a problem - as the transistor isn't based on electromagnetic fields... it doesn't need to be as large as the relays (should be cheaper too).
I'm still a student, so i may not be 100% correct in my assumptions - just applying what i've learned thus far

Edit: and congrats on the extraction! i didn't think it would ever get done lol

Well a reed relay can be as small as on of the smaller compasiters on the xbox motherboard. They are available at less than $1 from mouser.com - but shipping will be a bit much for a 1 item order. If there is another easy solution (transisters) that has parts available at RadioShack(or similar) we should go with that so more people can mod these things.


I just did some reading on transisters, and that sounds like the best idea. Find a constant 5v source (or use a 5v regulator) and use the 3.3v sand a transister as a switch for the 5v source.

Then we can use an inverter for the other signal.

Does the 3.3v show 3.3v and 0.0v or does it have some voltage all the time?

a 5v supply should be trivial to find... the molex connector brings 5v in on the red line... no problems there. We just need to get the proper data signal for the base of the transistor... here's how it should be wired:


Sorry for the crappy image - photoshops not installed on my laptop yet. thank go XP's version of pain can save in compressed formats

If anyone wants to do some reading on these devices here's a few good links:
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/solids/trans.html
http://www.electronics-tutorials.com/basics/transistors.htm

Agreed. I've got some surface mount transistors that I've been using to fix v1.6 mobos with the blown power regulator, so maybe one of those will do the trick, but I suspect a wired (or "thru-hole") component will be easier to hook up.


We made not need to. I'm very rusty on this stuff, but I've got a vague recollection that there's some simple way to make the transistor work in the opposite fashion, style-o'fing.



On this particular drive and Xbox my meter it actually shows 0.00V and 3.22V or 3.23V. Both signals show 0V when the tray is closed (because one of them needs inverting). The Tray In signal goes to 3.3V (or whatever) as soon as the tray starts opening, while the Tray Out signal stays at 0V until the tray is fully open.


Indeed. There are also multiple test points in the 5V rails so it's very easy to tap into the 5V supply.


Thanks for all that, otherguy, including coming up with the idea in the first place.
I'm at work now, but I'll try to have a fiddle with all this tonight. This transistor idea seems more promising anyway, and the little electronics shop on the way to work didn't have any 7405s, so I wasn't able to pick up any today.

First a correction. It's Tray Out that needs inverting, not Tray In. I was previously under the impression that these are active-high signals but the evidence of my eyeballs indicates otherwise.

I haven't been able to fathom why, but the test point on the 8163B circuit board labelled "LDOUT" is the Tray IN signal (correct polarity) and the point labelled "LDIN" is Tray OUT (inverted). Perhaps I've misunderstood something somewhere, but I don't think so.

Anyway, I currently have a BC547 transistor and a couple or resistors tacked onto my 8163B's board and I appear to be getting a good inverted and boosted Tray Out signal. Next step (hopefully tomorrow -- no time now) is going to be to try an "uninverted" version of the same thing (using a 557 transistor) for the Tray In signal. I don't think I can have both of these little mini-circuits tacked on at the same time without getting a short somewhere and I can't put the case back on with either one of them in place, so I may look at a better way to install them while I'm at it. Maybe even just a tiny bit of veroboard with some wires hanging off it.

If anyone's interested, you can pretty much see what I did by looking at the last diagram on the page at http://www.kpsec.freeuk.com/trancirc.htm under the heading "A transistor inverter (NOT gate)". If you scroll up a bit to the Heading "Choosing a suitable PNP transistor" you should get an idea of what I have in mind for the Tray In (uninverted) signal.

Wish me luck!

HAHA cheap M$ this and cheap M$ that... I'd put cheap parts in there too if I lost money on every box sold with thin intention that I will make money off the games. And then have half the boxes sold be bought for purposes other than playing original games.

I'm not sympathizing with M$, but I'm pointing out that our community and others like us are responsible for the decline in quality of the newer boxes. M$ is a business and they behave like one.

http://www.ewiz.com/detail.php?p=DVD-8163BK&c=pw

This is the best price I can find on the GDR-8163b Black DVD-ROM drives, If anyone can find a deal better than $27.00 with free shipping within the US please post it.



As to the tray in/ tray out, it was exactly the same with the sd-616t/f drives, you had to wire the tray in point to the tray out wire, and vice versa. I don't really understand how a transister can act as an inverter, and that link you posted says how to wire it up, but doesn't give any reason why it acts like it does.

Might want to look into beige options too as they are sometimes cheaper if you don't mind having a beige tray.
Edit: Found a link for these drives at walmart.com, maybe we can find them local? http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.gsp...030660804302498
Double Edit:Beige one at buy.com for 25.51 shipped free.

http://www.newegg.com/app/viewProductDesc....-136-050&depa=0

25.50 after they have it back in stock. NewEgg is the only place to shop IMO

Yep, newegg looks like the best deal, and it looks like they will be back in stock tomorrow.

Now, the question is, can we flash the firmware back to the drive in a pc without any special tools? If this is going to be successful we will have to solve this problem and the tray in/out problem.

The 1k resistor Rc ties the output signal high. When the input signal is low (0V), the collector-emitter current is zero and the output remains high. When input signal is high, collector-emitter current flows (with the 1k resistor acting as the load), and the output signal is pulled low.

This is all fine and dandy and is working, as I said earlier. Things are not so rosy for the uninverted signal. I didn't have much time to play with it this morning, though.

I'm off to bed now. I haven't had much of a chance for hands-on work, but I have been able to look up a couple of things and think about it. My last thought for the day is "what about op-amps?"

an op amp would work also - at first i thought it would be overkill - but now knowing that we need to change the voltage of two data signals - an op amp would be useful (since there is usually two opamps packaged per chip). They should be easy to come by - ratshack should have them

I lashed together a quick "protoype" op-amp circuit this morning. Once again the LDIN/TRAYOUT is fine (but not quite what I expected -- see below) but the LDOUT/TRAYIN is not working as expected. Clearly I'm even more hopeless at this than I thought. In case anyone else can shed any light, here's a schematic of what I did.

LDIN and LDOUT are the 3.3V signals from the 8163B, TRAYIN and TRAYOUT are the 'X' and 'Y' connections to the Xbox. The two 1k resistors form a simple voltage divider to get a reference voltage in between 0V and 3.3V (namely 2.5V). I used 1K resistors simply because I had two of them sitting on the bench that were left over from earlier experiments. I'm using a TL072 dual op-amp chip for similar reasons -- I just happen to have a couple left over from some unfinished project in the dim, distant past.
As I said, the LDIN/TRAYOUT op-amp is working as expected, except that when LDIN is high TRAYOUT is 1.25V, not 0V. With my limited understanding of this stuff I'm not sure why this is happening, but I don't think it matters since 1.25V is low enough anyway. Also, when LDIN is low TRAYOUT only shows 3.9V, not 5V. When I was playing with the transistor inverter circuit I measured the TRAYOUT voltage both with and without it hooked up to the Xbox. It showed well over 4V when disconnected but only 3.9V when connected, so I'm guessing it's somehow due to the load on TRAYOUT from the Xbox.
With the LDOUT/TRAYIN op-amp I'm reading 3.9V at TRAYIN all the time, no matter what the state of the LDOUT signal.

Ok, I keep reading over your posts, and as I read them, some of them are contridictory. Here is the info I need:

LDIN/Tray Out - What is it showing when the tray is in, when the tray is out. What should it be showing when the tray is in, and when the tray is out.

LDOUT/Tray IN - What is it showing when the tray is in, when the tray is out. What should it be showing when the tray is in, and when the tray is out.


If I can get this info, I can send it to work with my brother-in-law, and he can have an electrical engineer figure out what the best circuit is to get the job done.

Also, has anyone successfully used the firmware loader to load the 8050 firmware onto a gdr-8163b?

Please point out which posts you think contradict one another, and in what way (except for the mistake I made re. TRAYOUT needs inverting not TRAYIN, which I already corrected myself). You may prefer to do this in a PM. Either way is fine with me.


There is no "it" here. LDIN and TRAYOUT are two separate signal lines. One is derived from the other. My earlier post refers to LDIN/TRAYOUT only when talking about the circuit that converts one to the other.
LDIN is a signal from the 8163B. It "shows" 0V at all times except if the tray is fully open, when it shows 3.3V (well 3.22 or 3.23, actually).
TRAYOUT is the signal provided to the Xbox. It should be at 5V at all times except if the tray is fully open, when it should be 0V. With the op-amp circuit pictured above that is still hanging off my 8163B at home, I measure 3.9V when the tray is closed and 1.25V when it is open, but these levels seem to be close enough.


LDOUT is at 3.3V at all times except if the tray is fully closed, when it is at 0V (so really it's at 0V most of the time because "tray fully closed" is the normal state for the drive). TRAYIN should be at 5V at all times except if the tray is fully closed, when it should be at 0V.


That would be great, but please keep in mind (or ask your brother-in-law to ask the engineer to keep in mind) that we don't necessarily want the "best" circuit from an engineering point of view, but rather the smallest, simplest circuit that will do the job so that it can be easily installed and will fit in the limited space available inside the DVD drive.


Unless they've patched it themselves or you've been distributing it, no-one but you and me has a copy of it.

Here is what I sent to my brother-in-law, correct me if I am wrong, because he will get this in 6-8 hours when he gets to work.

Point #1 – Outputs 0 volts when it should output 5 volts. Outputs 3.3 (3.20-3.25 actual) volts when it should output 0 volts.

Point #2 – Outputs 3.3 (3.20-3.25 actual) volts when it should output 5 volts. Outputs 0 volts when it should output 0 volts (no prob here.)

5 Volt sources are available

Ground is available.



This circuit requires almost no current. The 0 volt values can be anything less than 1.5 volts, and the 5 volt values can be anything greater than 4.2 volts and still work correctly. The circuits must be very small, and very simple. The most precise circuit isn’t the most important thing, the simplest, cheapest, and smallest circuit that can output the voltage within the tolerances is the most important thing. It is also very important that all the components used are available at radio shack, as a lot of people are going to be using the circuit.

You should just code a 12c508 for this.

That's fine if you already have a PIC programmer, although still a little expensive. We can certanly do it with a quad op-amp chip, which would be cheaper and (for most people) simpler.

well why dont we get all of the people who can do this in different ways, and come up a 'database' with different ways of doing this. i am sure there would be more then one way to do it, so why not tell the pople the different ways?

I myself, think that having multiple choices will just confuse people. I think that we should find a very simple circuit that is also cheap and available at radioshack. This will make it so that we can put out 1 really nice tutorial.

ok, fair enough. its just that i would like to be able to see all of the options, so that i can choose the one that suits me teh most.
but your right, many options will confuse the less technically minded of us.

I don't see a problem giving out all the options, but when it comes time to putting out a tutorial we should decide on one, and not release multiple tutorials. I can just see someone mixing up 2 different circuits. So, 1 tutorial, and all the options posted on a webpage or a forum thread is prob the best idea.

Max joining the fight

Please take a look at the following data sheets

Hef general specifications
http://www.standardproducts.philips.com/pr...df/hef4049b.pdf

Quadruple true/complementing buffer
http://www.standardproducts.philips.com/pr...df/hef4041b.pdf

This is a long time ago for me too but this should be the way to go
Just hook up and go, (if i'm not forgetting something ofcourse)
A few current limiting resistors would be all that's needed (To make sure nothing happens)


A reed relais is a simple device and the current needed isn't that high, but if that 3.3v output can't handle it it's byebye dvd drive.
And it's a logic problem so lets use digital logic to solve it


Wenid: thanks for getting the firm. image for us, great work!!

(Does someone have any experience with decompiling firmwares?, isn't that 8051 compatible?!?)

Going to the sore to get a lg drive

I don't know why this ended up actually being a link to a hex inverting buffer, but if you really did read the "Family Specifications" (which can be found at http://www.standardproducts.philips.com/su...pdf/hefspec.pdf), then you may have noticed the minimum "Input voltage HIGH" (with a 5V supply) is specified as 3.5V. This is the same problem we started with, in a sense.


Not sure why you mentioned this chip -- a hex inverter would do the trick if we had the right levels, but if we had the right levels we'd only need to invert one signal. The only problem with the other signal is the low voltage.


I still think that a 7405 (or similar -- 74L05 etc) would probably do the trick. It should see the 3.3V as a high level signal and it can provide 5V output highs. The drawback is that the high voltage outputs are made possible by open collector outputs so they ALL need to be tied high, even the ones not being used. It may be OK to tie more than one thru a single resistor, but even so it's quite a bit of extra fiddle.


Indeed. I don't know what it's like in other parts of the world, but reed relays with 3.3V pickup voltage are not easy to come by in my neck of the woods.


Trouble is that it's not really a logic problem. Only the inverting is a logic problem, and that's a no-brainer. The difficult problem is turning the 3.3V signals into 5V signals (or whatever).


You're most welcome. It was a right pain, so I hope it turns out to have been worth it in the end.


Not me. As I understand it this firmware is at least partly encrypted. What I DO know about disassembling microcontroller code for these kinds of devices is enough to let me know I don't want to get into it any further.

I think you're on the right track with using a simple opamp as an inverter / level shifter. However, the TL072 wasn't really intended as a single-supply opamp and you are likely getting issues because of that. I'd try the same circuit with an LM324 (4 opamps per package, available at Rat Shack too)

From an EE standpoint, using an LM339 comparator would be even better, but since you'd require some pullup resistors on the output, it may be more difficult for some. The circuit could be the same as what you've showed.

Sorry, typing first and looking later doesn't work (must have been inverted )
And i thought of an earlyer project of mine that involved a 4041, but lets get back to the problem.

I've been looking at some datasheets(and reading too this time ), and why not use a 74hc04 (L1,35V -H3,15V) or a 74hct04 (L0,8V-H2V) (with VCC at 4,5v)
The output is almost VCC so that would be almost 5V
http://www.semiconductors.philips.com/acro...4HC_HCT04_3.pdf
(The 74HCU04 Isn't very well suited, don't buy that one!!)

Invert tray in, buffer the rest


They aren't using masks etc, maby if we compare both versions there would be an obvious reason why it doesn't work, as long as they didn't cut it out for those extra commands....well lets get it working first

Snap! I just got back from buying a couple of these very devices (as well as some 74LS05s). They are cheaper than the quad version of the TL072, too, but not as cheap as a 74LS05. The only reason I tried it with the TL072 in the first place was because I had some lying around.


Probably. I don't know much about comparators myself.


That was the attraction of the op-amps that got me sidetracked from the 7405 idea (that and the fact that I had some op-amps on hand but no 7405s -- I now have both, however).


Except with pullups added, presumably

I don't know what you're looking at, but to me it looks like the minimum voltage input HIGH on this is 3.15V at Vcc of 4.5V. That's cutting it a little close for my liking since the actual high is only measuring as 3.22V here and the Vcc will be 5V.
However it may still work and avoids the need for the pullup resistors that I'll have to use with a 74x05.
Anyway, I'll try one of these 74LS05s shortly and let y'all know...

OK. Here's the latest, but this one actually works. It's not as clean and simple as I was hoping for, however.

Thought we were talking about 3,3V, well ok, Lets use a 74HCT04 then, its high at 2v and its low on 0,8 at vcc 4,5-5,5V is perfect, no way near 3,22V

In the hc/hct design guides it says that all unused imputs should be tied to VCC through an 1,2KOhms resistor, and if we use two of the ports to buffer another one of the signals it should be easy to connect, no mention of output termination or so...probably not needed.

Isn't the pinout of the 04 and the 05 the same?, then why are you driving output pin 4,6,8 high and tieing it to output pin 2?(inverted ldout)
(probably a stupid question)

Have to go to the store next week, we don't have electronics stores everywhere here.

p.s. the scematic looks alot easyer than the other ones, this is defenately the way to go

We are, nominally. This particular drive in this particular Xbox is only reading 3.22V, however, and I'd guess that's not unusual. These aren't exactly high-precision systems, after all.


The '05 has the advantage that ANY 74x05 will do. Not so the '04s -- it's gotta be an HCT. I don't know how easy they are to come by, but neither of the local electronics shops here have them. (I didn't notice when I looked at the datasheet before that there were separate pages for the HC and the HCT for some some of the spec's -- sorry about that).


Yes


The 05 is an open-collector outputs version of the 04, which is how you get the higher output high voltage. The outputs need to be tied high because of the open collector (although I don't know if it would really matter if you left the unused inverters totally unconnected at both the input and output). The unused outputs are tied high through the same resistor as pin 2 simply to save on resistors and keep it a bit simpler. The only complication to this is that it effectively ORs the outputs so all the corresponding inputs must be low (so that all their outputs will be high and only the output controlled by LDOUT is having any real effect).


We don't have them everywhere here either, at least not good ones.


Sorry, but I have to disagree with you there. I think that if simplicity is the most important feature then op-amps will probably be the way to go. I'm going to try another experiment with them tomorrow, but this time using an LM324, as mentioned earlier. These cost a bit more than 74x05 chips, but if it saves enough fiddling then it's probably worth the extra dollar for the chip. Also, if I can get it to work using only two op-amps, then we could use an LM358 dual op-amp chip instead of the LM324 quad and end up with a smaller package to be fitted inside the DVD drive. The shop I buy these bits from charges the same for the LM358 as for the LM324, so it's a bit of a rip-off in that regard, but if two of the LM324 op-amps would be unused anyway, why worry? (On the other hand we may have another use for one or both of those op-amps down the track -- there's still the ready signal and that mystery pin that I think has something to do with the "Init" status).

Not so sure I agree here. The VinHiMin and VinLoMax values will be purely dependant on the family (HC, HCT, LS, etc) not the part itself. So using open-collector/drain parts won't change the input characteristics.

I may be misunderstanding you, but just wanted to clear that up.


That's pretty good. I presume that chip is a 74LS05 (low-speed CMOS hex inverter w/ open-collector outputs, correct? It should work for all designs, because the LS VinLo is only 2V.

However, you probably don't need to bother with connecting unused inputs. They recommend it, but for a design like this, it's simpler without. Either way, you certainly don't need to bother with connecting the unused output pins.

I'd say put this in a tutorial and ship out. The only caveat being that I can see people immediately ignoring the LS part and buying HC parts, innundating the board with "why does my drive not work?" questions.


Do we really worry about $2-$3 ? Most people will probably spend more on gasolline or shipping just to get these chips. If you order in quantity, it's even much cheaper.

Either way, I'm bettng both 324 and 358 will work just fine. The 324 is available in most hobby-type electronic shop, so I presume availability would be good. Not sure how important sizing is, however. How much room do we have in the drive casing? Seems like there should be a fair bit of empty room, no?


Opamps actually are internally "slowed down" so the device remains stable even at higher frequencies. They are otherwise almost identical to a comparator, which means the comparators will switch faster (hi to lo, etc) and is sometimes important for a digital system. I'm betting the 324 should be fast enough here, and certainly smipler.

What about just using a 74LS04 (74HCT04)? No pullups, etc.

Thanks for playing the guinea pig... Any chance I could get a copy of that code downloader and maybe contribute?

Sorry. You're right. I was a bit over-ethusiastic saying "any" 05. I really meant 7405, 74L05 or 74LS05, and possibly others.


Yes, the chips I have are LS05s, but according to the data sheet I have the plain 05 and the L05 both have 2V VinLo.


Agreed. I only did so because I had tied the outputs high through the same resistor I was using for the first LDOUT/TRAYIN stage so I needed to ensure those outputs wouldn't drag the "communal" output low.


OK. Thanks for confirmation on that. It will certainly simplify things if we can just basically ignore the three unused inverters.


If anyone else wants to do so I will not object. Personally I'm not ready to do that yet, and I may not do it even when I am ready. Even these postings are a more of a drain on my time than I can really afford.


Indeed. I'm still not convinced that this is the "best" way to go anyway. I'm still quite attracted to the op-amp approach if I can get it working more simply.


I worry about it because I will probably be selling modified drives and "in business, every dollar counts". However, in the case of 324s vs 358s it doesn't matter if the 358s are more expensive per op-amp if you wouldn't be using half the 324's op-amps anyway.


There is quite a bit of empty space at any given moment, but a lot of it is clearance for things going up and down or in and out. The other thing of course is that ideally you want the space to be near where the wiring connects to the circuit board so that you don't need to have wires trailing all over the place. Even disregarding all that, I would think it's probably easier to just sort of "jam it in somewhere" if it's half the size.


Ah-ha. Thanks for that. I certainly wouldn't think speed is a big issue here either.


My original reason for rejecting them was that the datasheet I have lists the VoutHi as 3.4V at Vcc=5V. I'm think that we're dealing with CMOS inputs that want 4V or thereabouts.

I'll PM you about the firmware flasher momentarily (couldn't quote that bit of your post. Dunno why. Too many quotes, maybe...?).

I just picked up a brand new Xbox today. The mfg. date is 01/26/2005

I eject the tray and it looks like I have the HITACHI Drive.. ..

HERE'S A PICTURE:

kool, definitley looks like a hitachi-lg drive