what do u think will be better. i played the forza demo, and it was the best, but it was a tad on the hard side. ive always been a fan of gran turismo though evon though its exclusive to playstation.

GT4.
No good steering wheel + no force feedback support on xbox means i wont even be considering forza, no matter how the game actually turns out.

Having played GT4 since dec 28th, its my prediction that GT4 will be a better game overall anyways.

gt4 is gonna suck balls compared to forza
they claim to be a racing sim but leave out the stuff that will actually make it a good realistic race sim.
forza has damage model and the cars drive on a 4 wheel system unlike gt where they ride on a one (single track) system... how is it going to be a better sim if they cant even have the cars act on all 4 wheels realisticly?
forza is breaking alot of ground in racing sims...read up on it...cause it will slauter gt4 no mater what all you gt4 fanboys think.

Yeah, I really think that GT4 is gonna suck for the fact that its been such a long time since it was supposed to be released, it would have been better for then to just wait a little longer and wait for the ps3. PS2 is just not as advanced as xbox, plain and simple, if it was developed for xbox, it would totally be the best, no questions asked in my opinion, but I'm glad we get Forza for the fact that at least we get car damage and stuff, its so unrealistic when you slam into a wall at 100+ mph and bounce off and not one scratch on your car to be seen.......ugh.

So just a steering wheel is gonna make GT4 better? Even if the gameplay was a million times better? And you havn't even played Forza, so your making a total bias oppinion.

Theres a forza demo dipshit. Its not very good. Im sure it will be much better in the final, but they have a loooong ways to go before its even close to as good as GT4, much less better.

And its funny that you all mention fanboys... try looking in a mirror sometime.

And yes, a steering wheel does indeed make the game better.
no good wheel = no sim, no matter how "realistic" the engine is.

Oh, yeah, and GT4 supports 1080i HD. At 60fps.

PGR2 will be easily better than both. Let me say first of all that I haven't played either Forza or GT4, but I've never been a fan of, or even liked, the GT series - they have no sensation of speed what-so-ever and to be honest the only selling point GT4 has is that there are 600+ cars (all based on the same physics model), and frankly if the number of tracks is as limited as in GT3 it will just end up being a bore unlocking them all. Having said that I'll probably buy the PSP version as it will be a great graphical showcase .

Consequencially, if Forza is being billed as the Xbox's GT, I couldn't care that much about it - though no doubt Xbox Live will be great.

first off @ Rassilon666
im no fan boy i give respect where its due...and gt4 neither breaks new ground in racing sims nor is inovative in any way...the game had its day but its day is gone.

they have a very simple race engine compared to toca or forza... and no damage model?
their cop out was because" noone wants to drive a broken car" bull shit
if that was the case racing games would have never implemented it...

any ways the game tops gt4 in many ways already...
you can set up a faux driver to learn how you drive and drive as you, so you can race your self to get better at racing... not only that but as i siad before your gt4 cars run on a map with one wheel in the center of the car all your shocks and wheels to is react to the road...where as in forza the car actully drives and sits on all 4 wheels...and reacts ...

no offence dude but its like your comparing a game boy game to to an xbox game, its based on old technology with a graphics upgrade....witch looks nice ...and ill give them credit for pumping out good graphics on the ps2...but nothing more...

i'd go for forza, ive only played the demo but its so realistic. i don't like gt4 as its only for ps2 and they make out that its so good, but since its on the ps2, it can never look good. forza is real.

I agree with Rassilon 666 , to me GT4 will be way better, car damage or not, some people here probably never tried the game to say it sucks or maybe just cause it's on PS2 ...what when GT5 comes out with car damage then?What excuse?
The physics in GT3 were amazing and they managed to improve it.
I played the Forza demo with great hope and so far (to me of course) the game has no chance to compete with Polyphony's title...but I understand you guys, I am a xbox fan too and I have been waiting for a real car sim for years now (and I expect much more from GTR actually).
Second point is the force feedback wheel, of course it's important, try out the Logitech 900° FF wheel for GT4 and you'll be begging for such accessory to come out for the xbox + I dont have that feeling of a "centered wheel" for Gran Turismo unlike the Colin Mc Rae Rally series...
Like themadman123 said, if GT4 was out on the box, there is no doubt we would all grab it...Forza 1 can hardly be better than GT4.

A lot of comments from people who havent played gt4...

I'll say this though: the sensation of speed is incredible. Driving a fast car on the nurburgring is a bit unsettling. And the wind noise at high speeds is a nice touch.

Sure, damage would have been nice, and there are a few other things that would be nice in gt4, but the actual driving feel is really well done. It may not break much ground as a pure racing sim (ferrari f355 challenge was abit more of a sim), but more cars and more tracks than any other console racing game, AND having very good phyics engine and great graphics is no small accomplishment.

I dont think you know what youre talking about crobar. GT4 does keep track of all 4 wheels. forza isnt breaking any ground except perhaps for hype.

PGR2 doesnt even compare well to GT3, much less gt4.

And blind fanboy comments like "I dont like gt4 as its only for PS2" is what makes xbox fans look bad. Try opening your mind (and your eyes) a bit. Guess what: gt4 on the ps2 looks REALLY good.

ya know...it looks good but thats it...
its a good raceing presentation rather than a sim
i cant give this game credit at all its not a sim in by book at least not a very good one

aside from that do look up how the engine works...because the wheel dynamics stillride off a single "one wheel" in the center of the car, forza has the suspension fully build and functioning in real time effecting how the car moves and responds on a greater level than gt4 will ever do.

As for ps2 oposition...your on a fucking xbox web site...deal

Care to share the source of your misinformation?
Everything ive read and experienced from playing gt4 shows that it has a very good physics engine.
If it only calculates from a single wheel in the center, then why do cars spin when only the rear wheel goes off the track in a hard turn?

This game not only looks good, but it plays good. very good.

If GT4 isnt a sim, then neither is forza. In fact forza would be even farther away than gt.

This being an "xbox web site" is no excuse for being a half-witted fanboy.

GT4 - 700+ cars -------------------- Forza - 233
GT4 - 53 Tracks -------------------- Forza - 31

Gt3 looks better than any racing game on xbox, Forza is delayed to May.
Bottom line, you burnout loving noobs can't handle GT or Forza so go kiss ur xbox elsewhere.

Gt3? If your saying gran turismo 3 or even 4 looks better than gotham 2 or ralisport then you havent seen the games. That or you need glasses. There is no comparison.

Who gives a shit!!. forza doesn’t even have a FFB wheel!! GT4 has the 900 degree FFB wheel so it will be way more realistic than forza will ever be. How can forza be more of a sim if you are using triggers for the accelerator and joysticks for steering??. Plus since you’re the only person to say that and you have no evidence to back it up how can we believe you??



Have you even researched what you are saying?? They don’t have damage because some car companies said they don’t want their cars wrecked. So it’s like have 100 cars and have damage or 700+ cars and have no damage PD chose to have no damage so they can have all the cars they wanted in!

I think Forza motorsport will be a lot better than GT4. The online will be a lot better, the graphics will be better, and it will be able to run at higer FPS because of the power of the XBOX. Also the ability to modify your car ( like in NFSU2 ) will make this game brilliant, wih the physics engine it has. Also the attention to detail, when even a spoiler can tip the balance in a race against a stock car.

Also, although GT4 has 600 cars and forza 231, a lot of the cars in GT4 are rubbishy hatchbacks and slow cars that aren't fun to race.

onlinebacon

Christ on a stick..
you dont even bother to find out what youre talking about before you open your hole do you?

1.) GT4 runs at 60fps, forza runs at 30fps. GT4 supports 1080i, forza = ??, GT4 looks beautiful, forza looks plasticy and fake, particularly the cars (so far).

2.) spoilers make a huge difference in gt4, and you can tune the amount of downforce both front and rear.

3.) mentioning NFSU and brilliant in the same sentence disqualifies you from making an opinion about racing games. Theres more to a driving game than ricing your car out like some 16 yr old with dads money and a civic.

3.5) GT4 has a HUGE amount of modification you can do. The level of suspension and transmission tuning alone is incredible.

4.) Just because YOU dont want to drive all 600 (and its actually closer to 700) doesnt mean someone else doesnt. I probably dont want to drive all 230 cars in forza, that must mean it sucks right? bottom line, more choices is always better.

I actually think forza's graphics are looking really good at this point, also, have you got any evidence to say that it runs at 30fps?

If you have I'll apologize, if not SHUT UR HOLE

According to IGN, GT4 supports 1080i and Forza is 480p only. So yeah, even with better texturing on the Xbox, I tend to beleive GT4 will be way crisper on my HDTV simply because of the resolution.

"Forza doesn't have this", "GT4 doesn't have that", "Shut your hole", blablabla. This thread is useless and filled with fanboys. It's all about opinion. Go to respected gaming sites to read comparaisons. They're less biased than this thread is. And in the end, the one you prefer will always be superior to the other... Just be glad both console will get another decent racing sim.

And to your FPS fighters, the human eye hardly perceive anything higher than 24 FPS. Now that is a scientific fact...

Any word on the Fanatec Speedster 3 Forceshock wheel? I think someone told me it will work with a lot of Xbox racing games. Thought it was supposed to be out last month? This lack of a decent xbox steering wheel is killing me. I just cant get used to driving a car with a controller.

Eventhough IGN states that GT4 will support 1080i there is no damn way that it will. Not only would the added high res choke the ps2 to death, the ps2 does not support anything above 480p. There is no way in hell that any game on the ps2 could support 720p/1080i, have decent graphics, and run above 5 fps. To think otherwise would be only decieving yourself. I need more proof then just IGN, because they have been wrong many times before on stating the res on many xbox games.

EDIT button does not work: Come to find it GT4 does indeed support 1080i............but it is only a software upscaling trick, and not true 1080i or 480p. So no new info is present in the higher res. I knew their was a logical explanation for this......32 megs of ram is just impossible to produce high res.

i hate to play into all this bu what the hell its fun lol
from ign on each game...

Physics/Handling

GT4

It's still impossible to lose control on the starting line by spinning the wheels too fast, but the rest of the physics and handling are as solid as they ever were. Without any major tweaks to the engine that's been going strong for the past few games, Polyphony Digital is sticking to its guns that this driving simulator is as clean as it's gonna get.

From the slippery slopes of the rally courses to the train tracks that make your heart skip a beat as you try and take a turn over them, the terrain is accurately translated through the steering wheel. This is surely to sound like a broken record at this point, but the wheel is essential in getting the full experience. No two ways about it.


Forza Motorsport

Forza delivers incredible, and very distinct, physics and handling. These are slightly separate issues, but they do overlap. These cars all feature distinguished and wildly varying speeds, handling, cornering, and other driving aspects. From what I can tell so far, the most distinct aspects are found in the cornering. The cars feel less arcade-like than GT, and even with the assists on, the vehicles are phenomenally realistic. The physics model more precisely transfers weight during turns and requires a different learning curve than GT. More importantly, the cars take damage, which affects their performance drastically -- i.e., when damaged, they lose acceleration, veer to one side, or lose traction among other things. Also, we have yet to flip a car.


AI

GT4

The AI has supposedly been given a makeover from GT3, but the evidence is a little hard to find from our experience so far in the gameplay. The other cars act predictably enough for the most part and many of the races sport an even spread of cars with some rubber-banding happening after taking the lead.

It would be nice to see some more personality behind the virtual enemies. Not so much as the homicidal drivers in Burnout 3, but something more along those lines where drivers pair up to block the way or will become especially aggressive after they've been cut off and forced off the road.


Forza Motorsport

The artificial intelligence so far is tough and unforgiving, but not unbeatable. In both Career and Arcade, AI cars stick to their lines and compete vigorously against you and other AI drivers. Also, the old trick of bashing into other cars in GT is detrimental, as your car will follow the opponent car into the dirt, forcing both of you to lose valuable time. The first 10 seconds to each race is also hilariously calamitous, as cars bump each other, take wild sideswipes, and occasionally knock you off course.

After the start gate, opponent AI will continue to nudge you, and can clip your car at any time, which is surprising, impressive and annoying all at the same time. (If you catch on fast enough, it's surprising, if you don't, it's annoying.) There isn't any catch-up AI as far as I can tell. And I have noticed that once you get too far back in some four or five lap courses, there is no way to take first place again. But luckily in Forza, you can simply restart any race without any cost to your status or finances.

Graphics

GT4

When you're driving along in 1080i on your HDTV there's little question just how important the graphics are. They're essential to sentient life as we know it and deprivation will lead to the delirium tremens if you're lucky. With some of the sickest car models flying around highly detailed tracks it's hard to go look at other racing games, much less even play them.

There still aren't any drivers in the regular cars, but at least they're in the open-top coupes and even the ancient roadsters. There also isn't any car damage, which would be fantastic to see the next time around. With GT5 on the PS3 we can only dream of a more brutal, smashed-up future.


Forza Motorsport

So far, the graphics in Forza in no way supplant the astonishing visuals in GT4. The car models are precise and detailed, the lighting is excellent, and the roads are slick and pretty, but overall, Forza is an easy second place in the graphics department when it comes to textures, backgrounds, and car details. Having said that, the car models carry a hefty polygon count, the realtime lighting reflected off windows and side panels is impressive, and the cars take physical damage, which the GT4 cars don't.

There are lots of little things in Forza's favor. They include three levels of car damage (cosmetic, limited, full), and almost none of the cars you've seen so far in screens of movies have been personally customized, a feature GT4 doesn't have. Customization includes paint jobs, decays, tons of layering, and more. Other nice little details, include environments such as railings that take on the color of your car after a scrape, and a handful of superb particle effects, such as fender-bender sparks, heat blurring, and great dust and exhaust effects.

Sound


GT4

The sounds of the engines are a little meatier and fleshed out than in GT3. Producer Kazunori attributes this to the fact that the sounds were recorded when the vehicles were running at full throttle this time. Whatever the case, the vehicle sounds have been improved and all the other audio resulting from the tires hitting different terrain help to give more of a sense of where the vehicle is at any moment.

The soundtrack sports a huge list of songs that span the past few decades and include a good variety of popular hits. This connection with Sony must be paying off because there is quite the healthy list of tunes here. This all adds up to a soundtrack that will manage to last a couple of weeks before it gets permanently bumped to the background by tweaking the sound levels. One thing it most definitely isn't is the Burnout 3 soundtrack and for that we should be eternally thankful.

Forza Motorsport

MS has yet to disclose the soundtrack to Forza, so we cannot tell you what it's like. In the preview build, however, the songs we've heard are an aggregate of standard rock classic riffs melded into one polymorphous glob of generic gook. You hear a riff and you're like, "I know that song!" And then it turns into a commercial for a Ford car song. Also, from what I can tell, there are absolutely no Japanese jazzy elevator songs anywhere in the game, or the indelibly loveable reward song from the GT trophy cups. Sigh. However, the big plus is you can rip your own soundtrack, a feature GT4 does not have. Boo-yah!

As for sound effects, the recorded engine sounds for each car are distinct, clear, and unique to that vehicle. You can actually hear different sounds when you switch camera angles, too. So, when you're in a cockpit perspective, the sound effects are louder, more distinct, and more emotionally effective. When you're in a third-person angle, there's less loud and thus less effective. The overall sound design in Forza is very impressive.


Multiplayer

GT4

OK, OK, so there's no online in the official version of the game. This sucks and it's a huge disappointment for those who wanted to race others online. The announcement of an online GT4 appearing in some form in the future doesn't really sooth those wounds, either.

For those who have some computer skills, however, there's another option: tunneling. By hooking the PS2 up to a PC with an Ethernet cable it's possible to connect to another PC online to another PS2 and it's a decent workaround. It's functional for the savvy, but the lack of even a global scoreboard is mildly depressing. The Multi LAN Link on its own is cool with six people, but how often is that going to happen?


Forza Motorsport

When it comes to multiplayer, Forza spanks GT4, plain and simple. MS's driver offers two-player split-screen like in GT4, but it doesn't force you into a vertical split-screen, plus you'll have all the options from the single-player game to fiddle with. System Link offers up to eight players, two more than GT4's Multi LAN link, and you can race in a bunch of modes. And online, well, online is the big one.

On Xbox Live, players can race, create car clubs (clans), compete against as many as eight people simultaneously, vie using an ELO ranking system, race in any of the modes using headsets, check friends' lists, or simply use Xbox Live Aware. You also can race the entire Career Mode online if you choose, as the game will match you with same-ranking players. Forza's Xbox Live is going to blaze new trails.


Modes

GT4

The faithful should not be surprised that the license tests have returned with a vengeance. With five different licenses and 16 tests each that's one hell of a way to fine-tune the skills. The rest of the game follows along like before with a series of races and winning purses in order to buy more cars to race with and on and on.

Going outside the Gran Turismo mode there are also the time trials and the arcade races with other cars or some multiplayer are what you'd expect. The newness here is the B-Spec mode where it's possible to drive without driving. Instead, this is a matter of telling another driver how fast to go. As an exhilarating experience, it comes up flat, but it helps to farm races to get more money for the hotter cars.

In reality, it's the odd-yet-brilliant Photo Mode which makes us so very happy. Who would have thought that shooting a car in an exotic location or pausing a replay to take a photo of a car in action from 64 different angles would be that cool. But in fact it's one of the best rewards for getting the high-end vehicle and showing it off. Crazy.

Forza Motorsport

MS's racer offers a diverse set of modes including Arcade, Career, Multiplayer, Time Trials, and Free Run. Each time you place in the top three in Arcade mode a new track or car appears, propelling gamers to race again. In Career mode, you're able to earn points, like in an RPG, and reach new levels, by winning races, which enable you to create new relationships with manufacturers, while also opening up new cars, and earning you more cash to upgrade an existing vehicle or buy new cars. Unfortunately, there is no rally racing.

Career mode enables you to customize your cars internally and externally (the latter not being available in GT4), while also giving you the ability to train a Drivatar to race for you in courses you don't necessarily enjoy (i.e. endurance races). Multiplayer is fully loaded with two-player split-screen, SysLink for eight, and Xbox Live for eight players simultaneously, and Time Trials and Free Run are standard fare.


Feature Set

GT4

Aside from the Photo Mode it's hard to point at any one feature that is very new here. Instead, it's the implementation of so many different facets that add up to what will make this game a hot item in just under a week from now. For example, there are the billions of things to do under the hood where the car can be tweaked to perfection. We even got lost in the details of making the perfect drag-racer for the Las Vegas quarter-mile. Before we knew it, a half-hour had slipped right on by.

The biggest feature is truly how big this game is. There are over 700 cars to collect. Yeah, we know that getting dozens of domestic cars that you've never heard of may not be the most exciting thing, but there are so many that enthusiasts are bound to find several cars they want to drive around.

With these cars in the garage some playgrounds are needed and there are over 50 courses to drive them on. Include the mirrored version of these courses and that total goes into the mid-80's.


Forza Motorsport

The distinguishing features in Forza are impressive from a gameplay, and from a handful of technical, standpoints. Each of the 231 official cars in Forza take damage, and they actually all have people driving them, two small but irritating things that the GT series has long missed. The damage modeling can be significant, with windows shattering, fenders loosely hanging off, and doors, roofs, hoods, and trunks all notably showing destruction -- and the damage affects car performance.

The Career Mode, in my opinion, is probably one of the coolest aspects to Forza, as it enables players to set up Drivatars, significantly customize their vehicles inside and out, with great descriptions of each upgrade, and tons of areas in which to upgrade, and pick regions in which to start their careers. The Point System delivers a great sense of accomplishment, offering rewards (cars, tracks, money, improved relationships, etc.) that compel you to continue racing. You'll also be able to fully customize your car's looks, with layers of paint, decals, vinyls, and more. Finally, the multiplayer options are awesome and relatively unbeatable.





so yeah make your choice on that stuff...as for backing what ive stated befor...i would if i cold find where it is on ign...or if i cared to look for it lol.

forza for me, i like the new fresh game and car tuning/customize and the online play.

Played gt4 prolouge and i didnt like it... no online, even though it has a TON of cars and tracks.

I didnt like forza when I played it. It was TOO much of a sim for me. I will probally buy it anyways though ... lol

The 900 degree Force Feedback Steering wheel makes it a no brainer for me.

Nice to be here, and hello to you all


The following is a VERY long post (duh!) similar to what I posted on another thread, most is my opinion, some is what we currenly know about GT4 and Forza from websites such as IGN and Gamespy. and a post from Xbox.com
NOTE: I will NOT create a post of this length in the future.


I hate having to use GT4 as an example but to all PS2 fans, please bear with me. It is my opinion(man I am going to get flamed for this!)that the blind devotees, I am talking about the many hardcore fans out there that love the gran turismo series unconditionally, actually have been hurting the GT series by the very nature of that blind devotion. By not being more vocal on the need for polyphony digital to improve the AI and add damage (broken record I know) and statements such as "I don't care about damage I don't drive to smash into walls" or "GT4 is better than (insert game here) because it has 700 cars!, or more tracks!. Does anyone see what is going on here? the die hard fans are indirecty telling the developers that more content is what they want!! and the gameplay has remained virtually unchanged ( I am talking about the MAJOR gameplay elements) for over 7 years! why? because the fans did not make it a priorty to mention that major aspects of the gameplay (ai,damage) had to be included if it was to be a true racing simulator it professes to be.

Do you remember in 97 when the original gran turismo came out, people everywhere were saying how good the car models looked, and there were tons of them!.
A couple of years later when GT2 came out, the developers just added even more cars, though rally was something new and fun, nothing else changed. When GT3 came out, there wasent any improvement in the AI, and no damage model added, but because the car models of GT1 was one of the things that made it so successful back in 97, no prizes for guessing the most impressive(visually anyway)aspect of GT3. I mean why would PD change a winning formula? (sales wise that is) because not enough consumers made enough of an attempt to bring to the fore, GT's shortcoming's.

Now we have GT4 looming near. And if the Japanese import's reviews are anything to go by, we can expect to see (dear god have mercy on my soul!) the GT3 expansion pack!, I am very sorry as I sincerely love gran turismo, I have no doubt it's 4th iteration will be the best one out of the quadrilogy, but essentially it looks like that's pretty much what it is, an expansion. No doubt it will still have an excellent feel and include everything fans (believe it or not I am one!) know and love, but because there are so many fans out there that made such a big deal about graphics number of cars and number of tracks, and did not pay nearly as much attention to the much more important gameplay elements, It seems they are going to get exactly what they asked for more tracks, cars and even BETTER looking car models. After all that's what alot of people harped on, GT3's great car models (and they were great) GT4 also includes photo mode, Photo mode is cool by the sounds of it but it does not help game play, its just another way to show off graphics, which they, the fans, unintentialy told the developer's they loved the most, but neglected to more strongly bring up GT3's negatives. Again PD's focus should have been spent elsewhere. The core of the GT series in unquestionably great, but to truly improve and evolve you don't focus most on you strong points and keep your week area's week, you concentrate on you weak points first bring them up to the level of your strong points, then advance everything forward in unison, that way you create an almost unstoppable machine with everything working synergistically.

Gameplay is still the most important thing isent it? which would you rather have, more quantity or more quality? and I am not talking about just the graphics. While better visuals more content and more costomization are always very nice to have no one can deny that PD has kind of done everything but address the major underlying problems that have been so prevelent in the GT games. I am also aware that the physics in GT4 have been improved a little and that is always nice to hear. But again where do the priorities lie?. I have also heard the argument that the GT games are not allowed to have damage, I am not sure on this but why then can a game such as PGR have well known cars in it that you can damage? not to mention other games such as colin mc rae rally, V8 supercars and of course the upcoming Forza game. Is it just PD that can't get the permission to use damage?, I honestly don't know but would appreciate someone clearing that up for me. The 60 verses 30 fps really should not be up for serious discussion at this time because no one outside of the developer's of Forza really know wether or not the game will run at 30 or 60 fps.

A recent IGN article even touched upon the fact that the Forza team themselves originally said the final game would run at 60fps, here is how they worded it: "The preview build of Forza runs at about 30 FPS at best. Though the team originally said the final game will run at 60 FPS, this build does not reflect 60 FPS, and I expect the game to finally run at about 30 FPS." So what I am saying is this particular person that did this section of the review or PRE-view in Forza's case has no way of knowing if the final game will be 30fps or not. He just took a wild guess, what made it worse to me is that they were saying all this based on a " very early preview build of Forza". these are their words, not mine. By the way, just how old was that "very early" preview build?. Ok, lets think a second, the first time IGN (oh, and by the way I keep using IGN as an example because they have the most recent article on Forza) saw Forza was in E3 2004, am I saying that the build they previewed may in fact have been from May, 2004? ,YOU'RE DEAD RIGHT I AM! either that or within three or so month's later than that time. Anything much later than that time frame just would not make sense and would go against the logic of their "Very early preview" statement.
Could Gamespy have access to a later build of Forza?. I find gamespy to be pretty fair in that they are a multiplatform site and seem as though they enjoy games no matter which platform it happens to be from. Of course everyone has their own favourite sites, but I generally trust most of what they say (I never FULLY trust anyone) and they seem to paint quite a different picture to that displayed by IGN. Lets take the graphics as the most obvious example of what I am talking (or ranting depending on how you look at it) about as this is an aspect of GT4 some PS2 fans like using as a weapon to help discredit Forza.Here's what IGN say about GT4 and Forza's graphics: "While seemingly the most important issue discussed on the boards, the graphics aren't the most important aspect to a driving game. They are, however, a distinguishing element that determines whether you're going to buy the game or not ." Maybe for some of the casual gamer's, but not for me, moving on.....
*Please exuse the reposting of some of the following info, but it will help explain where I am coming from*
GT4(by IGN)

" When you're driving along in 1080i on your HDTV there's little question just how important the graphics are. They're essential to sentient life as we know it and deprivation will lead to the delirium tremens if you're lucky. With some of the sickest car models flying around highly detailed tracks it's hard to go look at other racing games, much less even play them.
There still aren't any drivers in the regular cars, but at least they're in the open-top coupes and even the ancient roadsters. There also isn't any car damage, which would be fantastic to see the next time around. With GT5 on the PS3 we can only dream of a more brutal, smashed-up future."
Forza Motorsport(by IGN)

" So far, the graphics in Forza in no way supplant the astonishing visuals in GT4. The car models are precise and detailed, the lighting is excellent, and the roads are slick and pretty, but overall, Forza is an easy second place in the graphics department when it comes to textures, backgrounds, and car details. Having said that, the car models carry a hefty polygon count, the realtime lighting reflected off windows and side panels is impressive, and the cars take physical damage, which the GT4 cars don't.
There are lots of little things in Forza's favor. They include three levels of car damage (cosmetic, limited, full), and almost none of the cars you've seen so far in screens of movies have been personally customized, a feature GT4 doesn't have. Customization includes paint jobs, decays, tons of layering, and more. Other nice little details, include environments such as railings that take on the color of your car after a scrape, and a handful of superb particle effects, such as fender-bender sparks, heat blurring, and great dust and exhaust effects."
Now for Gamespy's take with a "possibily" newer build.
" Visually, there's enough in Forza to rival GT4 and every other driving game, even -without the added muscle of physics and other details. Think about two terms: real-time shadowing and full-color reflections. The latter doesn't seem to be too big a deal, but the system really cranks up the reality level when you drive at night and the shadows cast from every light in the vicinity of the car seem right. Then there's the reflections, which add a level of detail that really does contribute to the heightened sense of in-game reality. Beyond that, I don't have to mention that the game looks as good, if not better than GT4."
When I first read that I thought there may have been a chance that Gamespy was purely and simply more impressed with Forza's graphics than IGN was, but why would they say: " the game looks as good, if not better than GT4", if there wasent at least a little truth in it?. Then my suspicion of a newer build at play was as close to verification as you can get:
Gamespy continues....
" There's a lot of this build that isn't polished yet, primarily in the multiplayer areas, so it's impossible to see just how that will play out. The split-screen feature is going through extensive tuning, and the online aspect isn't quite locked down yet. But in addition to four-player offline races, the Xbox online features will be able to handle up to eight players per race, with hundreds of leaderboards to track every stat in the game. You can also share your Drivatar, which is the awkward name for the profile created as you teach the CPU how to drive for you."
These are the two statements you should pay attention to : "There's a lot of this build that isn't polished yet, primarily in the multiplayer areas" no mention of the primary concern being graphics.
And here's the second and most important sentence: "The split-screen feature is going through extensive tuning, and the online aspect isn't quite locked down yet". Seems like things they would be doing near the end of the game's development once everything else is nailed. - I would have to say based on all of this that the IGN preview build of forza is at most 9 month's old but at least 6 month's old, and that the Gamespy build can't be more than 3 or so month's old. This of course would mean that when Forza comes out in May the build IGN previewed could be (notice I said COULD, this is just an opinion after all) between 9 and 12 month's old! and the gamespy preview could be up to around 6 month's by that time!.

TO ALL THOSE THAT HAVE PLAYED THE FORZA DEMO.

The demo is also 6 months old, and although it is actually pretty good. The graphics are only average. I do think that the car model's are good in the sence that they are detailed and solid, but they are not polished. But the Forza team we not at the refineing stage at that time. here is a link from one of the develeper's stating that in fact the demo is a build from July-August of 2004. http://forums.xbox.com/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=11278852 Scroll down to the third last question. ( this link is courtesy of Two Red Eyed, and MarixArchitect at Xbox.com.). So yes the full game will be much better than the demo in everyway. So you can see now if after reading all of this, that for the game to have improved only slightly over the quality shown on the demo, even though by the time Forza is released that demo will be close to 10 months old, would be spitting in the eye of logic. As a side note Forza will have it's own specially designed wheel, although no one seems to know if it features TRUE force feed back, however here's the link for a little more info. http://editorials.teamxbox.com/xbox/1007/CES-2005-WrapUp/p2/

As for GT4 and it's lack or complete absence of progress in some of the key fundamental aspects of gameplay. I think that if those problems that are brought fully into the light have the best chance of getting fixed. And that must come from the very fans the developers listen to. And if there are only a few who are the truest of fans that let thier opinions be known, that light will be very dim, and may not be noticed for a long time. The fastest change comes from the many. If the fans have a collective voice changes will come sooner rather than always being later. And for Forza, I don't think there would be a Forza if it hadent been for gran turismo, at least not as good an attempt as Forza seems to be making, to claim the crown of the world finest racing sim. Compitition is good as that means better games for us. If you were to say play a game of tennis against an aponant much less skilled than you and not as physically strong, it would be almost impossible to improve, however play someone who can really challenge you and beat you if you are not at your best, then your skill will improve rapidly.
GT4 up until now has had only average at best "player's", so it's skill so to speak has not increased as rapidly than if it were to have faced a worthy competitor. And besides that why would GT have to dramatically increase it's skill? it still wins all the games. From the example of gran turismo Forza was born, and from Forza gran turismo will have the best reason to evolve, because like it or not if we are to get the absolute best game's (ANY game for that matter) games like GT4 and Forza's rivalry are the key. It's a great time to be a gamer.( did I just hear a " thank god that's over?! )


























.

I think the answer to this question is simple. If you have an Xbox, Forza will dominate. If you have a PS2, GT4 will smoke. If you have both, be happy that you can experience both.

Finally, in my own opinion, the reason Forza is even being made is because of the outstanding success of the GT series with Sony. When development on Forza was first announced, it was pushed as being built by GT fans. Now I'm not saying that one is better than the other, I'm just saying how can we flame either when Forza was inspired by GT?

Laterz all,
Rustmonkey

Recent Build of Forza previewed by Australia's Game Arena.

http://www.gamearena.com.au/previews/read/2926693

" The demo version looks supiciously similar in age to the version showing at last year’s E3. However, having been taken through a recent build by MS’s Forza rep, Michael Johnson, I’m happy to assure fretting roadsters that there has been a gulf of improvement."

nice...
i love the shots of this game...
they only show so much so alot of the game will be very new to everyones eyes once its...finally out.

I'll be getting Forza, for me GT4 is inbetween PGR2 and Forza, not truely dedicated.

I will be getting Forza, simply cos I have no PS2 and it will rock over KAI.

Hey everyone just thought I would give you a link to a few new shots of Forza.

http://www.forzacentral.com/forum/showthread.php?t=776

I think it is safe to say going by a few of those pics, that the visuals have come along way since the demo, in fact I would go so far as to say it looks like a completly different game. Enjoy, I will be back to give updates when possible.

New Forza customization preview at Next Level Gaming. To say that Forza's customization is deep, would be an understatement.

http://www.nlgaming.com/nl/asp/id_308/nl/previewDisp.htm

i'll prolly get both. i bought an xbox over a ps2 b/c i could mod it, and have so far been dissapointed with it's racing "sims" - what few of them there are.

i can't wait till forza comes out, although the more i read about it, the less i like. the car list is starting to look sad IMO. later this month i'll prolly get a ps2, gt4, and wheel and pedals.

and i hate when people compare replay screenshots, because that's never how it looks while racing. i could care less how pretty the movies are, i want to see what it will look like when i'm driving in 3rd person

To everyone complaining about no racing wheel for Forza. This video clip on Gamespot has been posted since January 10th. It is a demo of the Speedster 3 FORCE FEEDBACK racing wheel which is being precision tuned by MS for Forza. Go to the 4th video down: Developer Interview: Donald Rottiers of Endor describes the advantages of the Speedster 3 driving wheel.

Forza Motorsport on Gamespot

There are 2 new Forza movies available on Gamespy. I recommend you download the newest one as this has some very nice Forza footage in it. To download it simply click on the movie you want, then go to the bottom of the page to download it. You can select any quality you like without having to be a member.

http://media.xbox.gamespy.com/media/682/682857/vids_1.html

Enjoy!

Herd that FORZA is gonna have same/better quality of graphics like GT4 plus alot more customization and upgrades then GT4, plus GT4 has way to much cars to choose from

DaNiceOne, if you want a fantastic site to find out more information about Forza as well as get most of your question's answered then check out Forzacentral.

http://www.forzacentral.com/

You should find it pretty interesting.

Why would GT4 run at 60fps when tv's only support 25-29fps?

I have Gran Turismo 4 and it is totally addicting. I have tried the Forza Motersport demo and it is very nice not sure if it is a better game since it is far from release yet. I wonder why it was even pushed back in the first place? I has all the makings of a good sim racer. My money is going to be on GT4 since it has proven it self since it's first release on the playstation 1.

Forza

* UPDATE *

Popular Sciene recently wrote an article entitled " Forza 'VS' Reality "

Please go to the following link for more info:

http://www.forzacentral.com/forum/showthread.php?t=936

Also, to go along with the article there is also an EXCELLENT video and comparison footage of Forza 'vs' reality, where you get to see pro le mans racer Gunnar Jeanette racing on a sweet Forza set up, as well as comments from him on Forza. Also in the video is RJ DeVera who is a fomer street racer and veteren video gamer, as well as a few comment's from him aswell.

http://media.xbox.ign.com/media/682/682857....html?fromint=1

Happy viewing!!

I think GT4 will trump Forza in graphics and drivability. GT4 drives more realisticlly thanks to the Pro Force. I think Forza will dominate in car selection (a sore spot in my GT4 heart. The inclusion of 100 Nissans kills you) and the customization is nice, but not required. I think that should be left for street racing. However, I think that if PGR were to do that and take some mechanical features into account it would probably be better the Forza. By that I mean make some street based courses to this game and you'll have a REAL winner. I must say, the street courses in GT4 are a real nice touch. Something no other game until PGR took advantage of. GT this time around has some really nice street courses and I think courses like this (maybe a San Fran course?) would be a perfect addition for Forza. Oh, Forza can also trade PARTS!! not just cars but parts. PD, I am waiting for the online version to see what you have to offer.

Final verdict:(from a diehard GT fan)
Physics: GT4
Graphics: GT4
Cars: Forza
Multiplayer: Duh, Forza
Customization: Yet to be determined, I like tinkering with gear ratios and I don't know if Forza offers that
Replay: Tough to say also. GT4's super realistic feel can make lapping 1 car around a carboard box fun.
Novelity:I'm going to reach out on a limb and say Forza. A new enviornment helps. (GT4 is familar to fans, but new still)
Features: GT, that Photomode sure is fun.
Overall: Yet to be determined, but it WILL be tough.

Well Pasta Dude, since you are a die hard GT fan it is unlikly anyone will be able to change your mind as to which will be truly better. Just a matter of preference I guess. I do hope however, that you and all GT fans can put aside thier bias, just for a little while, and try to give Forza decent play test before drawing any conclusion's. It simply is not possible to conclusively, and fairly say, that one game is better than the other. Since Forza is not out yet, and no one has played the final build you cannot 100% say either way, without sounding a little stupid. Of course it is OK to say that you THINK one will be better than the other, but one with common sense and logical thinking would not say I KNOW or that this is FACT, when Forza as a full complete game does not even exist yet.

So it all boils down to judge full complete game, agains't full complete game, everything else are just guesses. But I GUESS that you have already PRE-judged and made up your mind, so I do not think you will be giving Forza the chance it deserves, which is a shame. I wish people would just enjoy games that are good, instead of limiting themselves to a certain game franchise or a game only on the console they own, seem's to me I am in the minority though.

EDIT: Weird double post error, sorry.

ok before anyone posts on this game they should first know
its not out yet lol
pasta dude much of what you state is bs from what we have all seen and are rumored to expect from forza
forza will in fact have street courses
forza is based on a very similar engine to pgr
forza has a force feed back wheel with set up

oh and gt4...photo mode sucks balls what are you ten and entertained by flashing colors

either way
the game still isnt done
but i keep seeing sick progress int he screen shots and its looking hot

this game is causing alot of talk

If this is true, then Forza will be complete crap. PGR2 is garbage compared to GT3, and is even worse compared to GT4.

However, i dont think its true. I still dont think forza will be as good as GT4, but it should better than PGR. (not that thats saying much..)


No, it doesnt. Not true force feedback anways. The xbox doesnt support forcefeed back wheels. period. Anything you think youre getting is little more than a "rumble" feature.


Let me guess, you havent played gt4 at all have you?
Photo mode isnt enough to make me want the game on its own, but its a very fun and cool addition to an already spectacular driving game.

Before YOU post on this game, you should stop talking out of your ass.

Well I haven't really been a fan of PS2 games, but I liked GT4 when i played it. Forza however, might not look as good as GT4, although the AA and AF might help on the xbox hardware.

The simulation of driving however, might be more realistic. Also I just found out that the demo of Forza is 1 or 2 years old, and they haven't released any RECENT screenshots of RECENT builds... So it's kind of hard to judge, however guys check this out... it's impressive!

http://www.vwdiecast.anomalous.net/Forza/Forza_article.html

5 seconds faster because of the scare factor, plus ofcourse it might be off a little bit, but that's way better than GT4 no?