Who would you people say is the most overrated in any sport?

I would say
soccer: David Beckham
Basketball: Allen Huston or Vince Carter
Football: Eli Manning, Ricky Williams
Hockey: Ed Belfor, Danny Healtley
Baseball: Barry Bonds, Curt Shilling, David Wells, Jason Gaimbi, David Ortiz (he's a DH how hard is that!!)
Over all: Tiger Woods, (Roger Feder (spelling), Andy Roddick (it's F'ing tennis)

As for underrated

Soccer: Therry Henry, Wayne Rooney, Carlos Ranaldo (Man U), Del Piero (Italy)
Basketball: Kevin Garnett, Jalen Rose, Richard Hamilton and Tim Duncan
Football: Carnell (Cadilic) Williams, Antanio Gates, Tolimson (spelling)
Hockey: Kris Draper, Simon Gagne, Steve Yzerman, Andrew Cassels
Baseball: Orlando Hudson, Roy Haliday, Dontrelle Willis
As for the most underrated player it's: Ichro Suzki (1,000+ hits in 4 seasons ) the guy is awsome plus he plays for a not so great team

Since I'm not as into every sport the way I am baseball I'm going to restrict this to a baseball only arguement.

Most overated:
Ichiro Suzuki: Let me preface this by saying I think he's a great ball player. Simply not as good as everyone thinks. He's a smart player. A good fielder. And a good baserunner. My gripe is when he has a bat in his hand. You can make every arguement you want about his hit total. That's only part of baseball. Getting on base is where it's at. And because Ichiro expands his strike zone and never draws walks (47 this year to date) he has a horrible on base percentage. (.346).The only times he has a decent OBP is when he bats .340ish, which he's not going to do every year. He also doesnt have decent power. When you compare him to one of your underrated players (Let's say Giambi) his OBP is almost 100 point lower .346 vs. .440. That's simply because even when Giambi isn't hitting he draws walks which puts him on base.

Someones gonna make the note that Safeco hinders offensive numbers. For a home run hitter this is probably true. But as big as the outfield I almost wonder if it's an advantage for a slap hitter like Ichiro.

The point is simply that everyone thinks hes such an amzing hitter when in reality he only hits for average. He doesn't draw walks or hit for power. Theres guys who can do 2 or even all 3 of those.

Now I've got a few comments on some of your players.

Dontrelle: I'm not sure that the D-Train's a secret anymore. I think he gets plenty of credit. I think there's several other pitchers that are more underrated. I think Carpenter just because of his style and demeanor gets snubbed at times. He's just not as easy to like as Dontrelle. Oswalt is another great example. Somehow overshadowed by Clemens and Pettite when he's been pitching very well the last few years.

Halladay: People who don't know Roy don't know baseball and simply shouldn't be allowed opinions. He's the best AL pitcher.... Period.
How bout a guy like Joe Nathan for Min. 2.82 ERA this year. 40 saves. And all we hear is Rivera this, Wickman that, BJ Ryan sucks.

Schilling: As bad as he is this year, and he IS getting a pass, he is a monster big game pitcher. He did it in Arizona and he did it in Boston. clutch performances are worth their weight in gold and I'd rather have the Pettittes and Schills that are better when the game matters most then guys like Mussina who seem to fold under pressure.

Ortiz: David Ortiz could probably play a bad 1st base just like plenty of other players play bad in the field. There's several suspect 1Bs. And plenty of bad outfielders. Boston has other position players for 1st and can therefore use him at DH. Don't say he's overrated simply because Boston doesn't need him in the field. How hard is a DH? Pretty hard I'd say. How many guys have better offensive numbers this year? Or the last 2 years? 3 years? There's so few multitool hitters. So few guys can hit for power and average and draw walks (High OBP). Think about it. Whats the list of truly great hitters? A-Rod. Bonds. Ortiz. Vlad. Pujols. Manny. A Jones if .280 is hitting for average. Texeira (Same deal on average though) When you start making this list bigger you start compromising the power or average numbers. Hey, if I can only list 10 players or so that hit as well as Ortiz can, then how hard is being a DH at his level? Well apparently theres several hundred guys in the league that can't do it and only a handful that could. So I guess pretty hard.

What about some love for some of the younger guys or good guys on bad teams. Hafner, Sizemore, Crawford, Kazmir, King Felix, Cano, Hoffman, The rest of the Indians, King Felix, Reed Johnson, Livan Hernandez, Felix Hernandez, Sheets, Brian Giles, Lugo, The A's pitching staff. Frankly there's so many players that play very well and no one knows or cares that it's sad. Apparently if youre not a flashy superstar for NY, BOS, or STL no one wants to buy your jersey.

Quick Football thoughts.

Cadillac isn't underrated. He's a rookie. Just because a guy has three great games we can't act like he deserves to be put on the same level as Tomlinson, Holmes, Deuce, etc.

Eli.... I think Elis looked really good in his last game. He's still young and QBs take more time to develope then RBs and other positions. No one could expect him to be an all star yet. Plenty of HOF QBs had bad first seasons. Remember, Big Ben winning all those games is a fluke. It's more his team then him. He didn't need to win games, just not lose them with mistakes and turnovers. I think Elis shown remarkable improvement and think in a year or 2 he'll be one of the elite QBs in the game. (On a side note I hope not. I dislike Eli Manning)

Under rated NFL players
QB: Trent Green. My #4 QB in the game after McNabb, Manning, and Brady (No particular order)

RB. Westbrook. If he's not as important or more important then TO I dont know who is. And Ill bet very few think of him when thinkg of the Eagles.

Federer could be the greatest teniis player of all time. I think it's hard to over rate someone that dominant.

Here I go, with my arguments to this thread (I'll post my thoughts after)

Overrated:

How is Barry Bonds overrated? Because of the steroid scandal? He is the greatest offensive force (in almost any sport) in our time, and I really think he deserves more credit. The media has put *'s beside every one of his numbers and I don't think that is fair.

Tiger Woods is the greatest golfer of all time, and I don't see any argument to back up otherwise.

Same with Federer, as Rylinkus said, could quite possibly be the greatest tennis player of all time. How can anyone like that be overrated?

Underrated:

Kevin Garnett and Tim Duncan have both been league MVP's. Tim Duncan was the MVP of last years playoffs. Enough said.


Now for my thoughts.
I'm going to stick to just a few sports here.

Overrated

Basketball: Kobe Bryant - THE most selfish player in the league. Sure he is a great talent and can score 30+ every night, but the Jordan comparisons are getting pretty silly.
Hockey: I'm going to have to go with Roberto Luango on this one. He had the best save percentage in the league last year but lets see what happens when they cut those massive pads in half.

Underrated

Basketball: AI. How do you put up a 30.7 Points, 7.9 Assists, and 2.4 Steals per game and not even be considered for MVP?

Wrong on the Barry Bonds being the greatest Offensive threat, ever hear of Wayne Gretzky? I forgot about Kobe good call Spency. As for the people I mentioned the my Opions and I am sticking to 'em

the hockey pads are cut down by 11%....not 50%

OverRated
Ricky Williams
Curt Schilling
Derek Jeter
Nomar Garciaparra
Kobe Bryant
Vince Carter

UnderRated
LaDainian Tomlinson
Brian Giles
Hines Ward
Alge Crumpler
Keith Bullock
Ron Francis
Dirk Nowitzki

Monster game for Eli..... Overrated still or just developing???
(I still hate him)

Crumpler is definately overlooked. Very good TE.

I realize the pads weren't actually cut down by 50%, his pads just looked much bigger then everybody else's.

Can't argue with Gretzky being the biggest offensive force in sports history, Bonds is up there though.

Bonds was a great offensive threat. That doesnt mean he isnt overrated. I.E. If Ichiro did 'roids he would be a better offensive threat in my opinion. Bonds as a player is overrated. He does not deserve the titles and records he has. Even though he did take 1 from another 'roid mongrel (McGuire).

ooo Ron Francis is a really good one!

I hope that is sarcasm.

i'm a hockey fan and a penguins fan..... that man is (was, he just retired) wayyyyyy underrated. I really meant that that was a good pick for an underrated player

thomes08

Rylinkus, liked your defense of ortiz. it's so hard not to like the guy. you can count the number of times he's picked that team up on several hands.

There's just do few multitool hitters. So few guys can hit for power and average and draw walks. The list is VERY short. I don't like him for MVP this year. I think A-Rod deserves it as he has similar offensive production but also gives NY above average fielding at his position and better baserunning (22? steals). But don't knock Big Papi. He's the most feared hitter in baseball right now. Look at what the Yankees did with him this last weekend. They didn't intentionally walk him, but they certainly didn't pitch to him either. They'd rather walk him on base then let him hit a HR (And this is with Manny behind him in the order)

And that's really my knock on Ichiro. So many people want to put him on par with the best hitters in the game. But the best hitters in the game hit for average, power, AND walk. Ichiro just hits for average. I can find other players with similar averages to Ichiro most years. And guy who are overall better hitters as their other offensive numbers are more impressive. But there's a handful of guys that you can put on the same level as Ortiz. If it were so easy to DH every DH would have 45 homers, a .299 average, and 150ish RBIs.

Add to that Ortiz seeming to be a hell of a nice guy. How can you not like him?

Hockey



Sidney Crobsy is so overrated, geez people he hasn't even played a Hockey game yet that counts...

Underrated- Miikka Kiprusoff (Why do everyone ignores him? Hes amazing)

THANK YOU!

and thats all i have to say

A few pennies for a few names...
-How is V. Carter overrated? He is only really known for slamming down massive dunks...not much else. Thats why he has stayed in Toronto for so long. But I havent followed the off-season, so if he got traded...I missed it.
-Eli I am not too sure about. He did pull the cry-baby shit on draft day, and demand a trade...now look at San Diego. Think he knows he fucked up? He is only overrated because he went to a falling team instead of joining a rising team.
-I am a big Texas fan, and will say that Ricky was a big disappointment in the NFL. Thats all.
-Bonds, Schilling, Wells, Giambi, Ortiz. I like how you took 5 of the biggest names and downtalked them all. >Bonds is far from overrated, if anything he is just talked about too much. Steroids this, and steroids that...HAS HE EVER FAILED??? >Schilling and Wells are not overrated. Schilling is just off to a scratchy start, Wells just had a few bad games. How is being a normal MLB pitcher overrated? That is like me saying that Randy Johnson, Bartolo Cologn, John Smoltz, Dontrelle Willis, and every single teams star pitchers are overrated. They are labeled the TEAM star pitchers because they are the best on THAT TEAM. >Giambi isnt overrated either. Look what he did since being caught with roids. Rocky start...hmm just like Schilling...but since has posted pre-steroids numbers and became the Giambi of old. How is that overrated? >ORTIZ??? He is definately the saviour of the Boston Red Sox. No overrated status should even be thought of for this DH. Granted he is a DH...but why label him when he is leading the league in several categories? And on the DH part, he is the normal 1B, Olerud is not the lead guy if they play a NL park.
-Tiger is probably the best ever...but this year he is overrated. Vijay has outplayed him this year and deserves to still be #1.
My most overrated is Derek Jeter...Jeter is the posterboy on how to be a ballhog.

-KG and Duncan are not underrated. Both are the respected leaders of their team, Duncan is considered better all around than Shaq, and KG is a former MVP. How is that underrated?
-Cadillac Williams is just a rookie, and doesnt deserve to even be rated yet...and LeDanian Tomlinson I could agree on.
-Roy Haliday, and D-Train, these guys are probably two of the most dominant pitchers in the game. Not THE, just two of. Thats all Im gonna say about that.
-Most underrated player is not Ichiro Suzuki, he gets the credit he deserves. He is a lead off hitter with lead off statistics. Except on base%...thats what hurts him.
-Most underrated is Trent Dilfer. Look what he has done to the Browns. I never really like Dilfer, but he did win a Super Bowl with the Ravens as a starter, and now he is leading the Browns, so far, to an outstanding season. I know the Ravens' defense was a HUGE factor that season, still is. But they had to get points some how.

I want to chime in a few things about Jeter. First, you cant be a ball hog in baseball. If he touches the ball more then other guys that means what? The ball gets hit to him more? I'll say this about him. If I were trying to teach my son the proper way to play baseball he's one of the guys I'd point to. Because I NEVER look at him and think he's not giving it everything he has. And there's far too many guys that you swear just made the same play the night before but can't seem to this night. Somehow they just don't seem to run as fast. *cough* Manny *cough* In watching the playoff games my gf who knows next to nothing about baseball made a comment the other night that suprised me. She noted that on ground outs Jeter always seems to end up making it a much closer play then other guys. And he's certainly not the fastest guy in the playoffs. It's very simple. He runs hard on everything.

And ask yourself this, who would you rather have as a short stop? The only guy that comes to mind for me is the guy playing next to Jeter. But he plays a pretty solid 3rd so Ill let it slide.

ok ...like said before ...cant really be a ball hog in baseball...its not like hes telling them to hit it to him...



this just plain pisses me off...are you serious...firstly ..u ever heard of david dellucci???plays for texas rangers??yah hes my 1st cousin and i can promise u from seein what he gos through pesonally....no way its easyy...o yeah and id like to see u go out and hit 28 effin hr's against 90mph fastballs...not to mention pitchers like wakefield with his knuckle and so on...so dont even JOKE about it being easy..ok maybe when u go get a WS ring and an AL championship ring...yah THEN and ONLY THEN can u say its easy



sry....that just really pisses me off

eh, you can be a good player and still be overrated, i mean people act like hes the only player on the yankees

Riveras the best player on the Yankees. Then Arod.

But seriously, whod you rather have at SS? And maybe it's just cuz I'm in red sox country, but theres not a lot of Jeter hype round here.

Miguel Tejada? Come on...I think Tejada is better than Jeter. Not because he posts better numbers...because he does. But also because pitchers are more afraid to pitch to Tejada than to Jeter for power reasons.

I kinda wish the sox would not have gotten rid of Reese. He is injured now, but he was pretty good. Boston has a eye for having good players, then trading them before they get injured.

And your telling me that when a routine pop fly in foul territory to the 3rd base side is for the SS?? Jeter would be all over that calling A-Rod off. I hate that. He is a Ballhog, period. There is no I in TEAM, unless you play SS for the Yankees.

My guess is your a red sox fan due to the reese comments. Which means you have to dislike Jeter and most likely Rivera and A-Rod. Trust me, I hear all this shit at work. It's all red sox fans so everyone on NY sucks and is overrated and gay, don't forget gay. And the only reason they win games is because of their payroll. Second highest payroll in baseball...... Oh right, Boston. When you're an Indians fan you can bitch about payroll. Not when in Boston.

A lot of SSs field stuff behind the 3rd basemen. It's easier to be movind sideways as you can see the ball then back like a 3rd baseman would need to.

Derek Jeter:
Average: .309
HR: 19
OBP: .389
RBI: 70
SB: 14
R: 122

Miguel Tejada:
Average: .304
HR: 26
OBP: .349
RBI: 98
SB: 5
R: 89

I think you could argue Jeter's a slightly better fielder. So I just don't see what makes Tejada's numbers better.

im with rylinkus on this. i dont think he's overated. the guy is clutch and a selfless player that will lay down a bunt or jump into the stands for a foul ball. rylinkus im glad someone outside of houston or an astros fan is picking up on oswalt. he's finally getting his due though. so is brad lidge since gagne is out. im not saying gangne isn't also very good but lidge is better.
the red sox team = overated. i get tired of espn just talking about red sox or yankees. got old real quick.

When the Astros got Pettitte and everyone was saying they had now got an ace, (Remember Clemens came later), I was justing banging my haed off the wall. What about Miller and Oswalt. Look at their numbers. Better then Pettitte.

very true. (although petite is having a fantastic second half)miller was very good at the time. all i heard about was prior and wood. wood will forever be injured and priour is injured like oswalt was. i thought and still think zambrano the best of the lot though. guess you are a baseball guy...
look at the red sox. no pitching this year in the playoffs, god awful bullpen and everyone was predicting that they would win because of ortiz and manny. many people underestimated the offensive production of the white sox becuse they dont have some superstar names out there(that little collaspe at the end didn't help of course)

Great point Jeter is a lead off hitter and Tejada is a number 3 or 4 hitter you do the math. Derek Jeter is one hell of a althete period both are great players but I would pick Jeter over Tejada to build my team around any day.

Id loved Kerry Wood when he came up. I still like him a lot. He's a good guy. But he was a kid when he came up. A kid that threw thunder and made you remember what the word phenom meant. But young arms are fragile and in the wrong system they're not protected. Look at these kids throwing curves in little league now. Pathetic that their parents and coaches would let them throw that at a young age when it's so detrimental to their arms. I only hope seattle it vigilant in it's protection of Hernandez. So far so good, they don't even let him throw a curve.

xbl sux - that's a tough one to call. they both have they're strenths and weaknesses. if arod were still a shortstop would you pick him? im thinkng jeter to build a team around cuz i like his make up.
i see what your saying about wood. i never said he wasn't a very good pitcher just used them to talk about the under exposure of others.he pitched too many innings. r they gonna throw him in the bullpen if he breaks down again? zambrano is young and will get better. he's more a groundbal then strike out pitcher like wood. he racks up the pitch counts too

There's plenty of guys thaqt dont get props. Look at Smoltz last night. Greatest post season pitcher ever aside from maybe Jack Morris. Everyone expected Clemens to roll. (No disrespect meant to Roger) How bout ALL of the White Sox pitchers. You guys just watch El Duque? Kevin Milwood gets no love. I also like J Johnson. He simply eats innings. Every team needs a guy like that to rest their pen.

well the white sox werent getting any respect. that should change now should they hold off boston here for a couple innings. angels or yankees? i think angels in 5. after tonight yankess pitchin drops off

Chacons been better for NY then Johnson. And really Mussina looked amazing in game 1. Im not so sure theyre not the better team right now. I mean they were really bad off the first month or 2. Theyve fixed their pitching and only finished 1 game behind ANA. Meaning for the last 2 montsh the better teams been NY

i thn k they're pretty evenly match starter wise right now. angles have a much stronger bullpen minus rivera. they do have krod though. just as good but a tiny bit less consistant. then again mariano can mess up too. they looked stupid against moose but they have also played better offensively during the last stretch there at the end of the regular season. if the yanks can keep figgins and erstad off base then angels wont make it. hopefully they'll play tonight and it's not raining

*Actually, I am one Sox fan that respects players abilities. Just because they are Yankees, does not mean that i do not respect them...Jeter is a balhog...I hate him for that, but he helps them win ball games. That is respectful. I would also probably teach kids to play with his heart and passion for the game. They are unmatched by just about anybody in the game. I feel like im going against myself here...but I still hate him for being a ballhog. So I probably went a little overboard on the Tejada pick...but the numbers are VERY close.
I also do not dislike Rivera or A-Rod. They are probably, if not the best at their positions. Nobody could outslug A-rod, except Bonds, and almost nobody can beat Rivera when he takes the mound (a healthy Gagne). Very respectable players.
*And about the payroll...Boston has a high payroll as well. 128 million or something like that. Nothing compared to NY, but if you can make the money...spend it. And G.S. can afford all the tallent that is on that team due to loyal fans that pay the high ass ticket prices. NY has one of the highest team followings in the nation. Cubs might be first. But thats for a different post. Talent is all the Yankees have, cant deny that. They are just too fucking good to loose to anybody...unless they cant play TOGETHER. Something they cant really do well when it matters. But they can do it, they just need to slow down and breathe sometimes. Damn, I sound like a Yankee fan *BARF* Oh well.

Anyway, hopefully I dont get flamed for too much of this...if so...have at it.

remeber, fenway has the highest ticket prices of any ball park in america. It's too bad. It's a nice stadium in a nice city and I'd like to think it was more affordable to go to. Yet it sells out, so I gues theyre just making their money.

You want a nice ballpark hit up the Jake in Cleveland. Cheap to get in and it's a very nice park.

fenway may have the highest prices, but its also got the smallest capacity, im not sure what the prices are though so they might make up for that

Actually Im more just bitching how it's the ballpark Im closet to and it's expensive as all hell. And STILL tickets are a bitch to get because they sell out.

ah yes, regional bitching like me with those fair weather fans in chicago

i just know half these people walking around in sox jerseys have a yankees shirt on underneath it

I'd never be caught whereing a Boston Jersey. I would still like to be able to see live baseball.

Rylinkus- You may hate on me for this but...oh well.
I was at Fenway a couple of years ago for free. Thats right free. I sat about 15-18 rows back from the 3rd base dugout when the Yankees were in town...then I moved closer over by the 1st base dugout. It was an awesome game, the Sox won after a 7th inning home run by Varitek, I believe. The Yankees just couldnt come back. It was game 3 of the series, and Sox won the series with that game. I want to say July of 03 I was out there. We did a job for Today's Collision Repair, they gave us 4 tickets and it was one of the greatest experiences Ive been through. Cant say THE best, wife would kill me Anyways, you probably dont care...just thought I would sprinkle you with that story after seeing your post.


And about seeing live baseball...just go to ebay or something, sometimes you get lucky...or travel a few miles and watch your team on the road like me. I watch the Sox when they come down to play the Royals. And its guaranteed tickets! Had 8 rows back from 3rd base dugout this year . I live in Nebraska so thats the closest they come for the money. Tickets get cheaper when the teams arent that great. Not sure where you could go though...Pittsburgh? Might be cheap.

DBL POST.....

Im in Maine. You find the next closest stadium after Fenway. The Expos are now goe, so that leaves NY teams.

Yikes, my fault. I was assuming you lived closer to Fenway. Guess Pirates is a little far. That would leave the Mets/Yankees/Nationals/Orioles...O's and Nats might even be too far (not sure how far your willing to drive). Good luck with the Yankees...Maybe could get into a Nationals game...
Most expensive ticket at Shea would be $60 in 05, Nats dont have 06 pricing yet...but I guess that gives you an idea...
Just take a week vacation and road trip...see 3 games!

Postseason 1990... postseason 1991... postseason 1992... postseason 1997... postseason 2000...

1990 NLCS: .167
1991 NLCS: .148
1992 NLCS: .261
1997 NLDS: .250
2000 NLDS: .176
2002 NLDS: .294
2002 NLCS: .273
2002 WS : .471
2003 NLDS: .222

Lifetime postseason BA: .245

Yeah, overrated (and overmedicated).

Everyone know what he can do in the clutch. And it's not pretty. Just because he sucks in the clutch doesnt mean hes over rated. Id actually tend to think hes a bit under rated, just because all anyone talks about when they talk bonds is steroids. Which really is sad since nothigns been close to proven with him.

When many people refer to him as the "greatest player of all time" and he sucks in the clutch then, yeah, he's overrated. Grossly overrated.

And, as a Pittsburgher, I thought he was overrated 10 years before anyone even mentioned him and steroids together (and before his face grew to twice its original size...).
Huh? He admits to using steroids! He just claims he didn't know they were steroids. Right...

Based on what. "leaked" testimony. Do you think Lance Armstrong used steroids? there's more hearsay and conjecture linking him to steroids then Bonds. All that you really have on Bond is someone saying he said he was taking something he thought he was flaxseed oil. I hardly count that as evidence he admitted using steroids.

And I dont know about the greatest player of all time. He's as good a hitter as Ive ever seen. Period. He's not great in the field, but I dont think that matters. People list plenty of great hitters when talking the best hitter. No one ever lists guys that are great fielders. If not you could make a case for Ozzie Smith being the greatest player ever.

And so what, Bonds didnt show up in the post season. Plenty of guys havent. I dont know if it's nerves, the play level being higher, or just shit luck. But NO ONE is always good. And honestly it's not like he's got a post season batting average of .150. A batting average of .245 isnt all that bad. And it's harder to judge because theres so few at bats in the post season that it's sort of a skewed result. Hell you have to have 250? at bats to be considered for the batting title for the same reason. If youve only got a very small sample youre working with the odds on your results being perfect are slim.

Bonds admitted using substances supplied to him by someone who now claims they were steroids. Bonds says "I didn't know".

I know of no rational person who thinks Bonds didn't use steroids based on the available evidence. The only debate is whether he was cheating and knew or an idiot and didn't. Having watched Bonds for almost 20 years, I think he knew, but I also think he's an idiot, so anything's possible...

All according to leaked grand jury testimony. None of this is a definitive smoking gun. If he flat out said it please cite a source, because Im not aware of this.

I guess we should change this thread to the Barry Bonds bashing thread or in honor of Jose call it "who juiced and who's not"