Microsoft Responds to Foil on Xbox 360 GPU Heatsink
-- Posted by XanTium on March 10 22:35 EST
Microsoft has issued a reply via the GamerScore Blog (ran by Xbox employees) to the story about the foil found on some heatsink GPUs:
[QUOTE]
The video and photos posted by German blog GameStore24.de show thermal interface pads that are not installed incorrectly. They are installed per specification. This foil eliminates the need of a protective liner, which simplifies the final assembly process and minimizes shipping concerns and contamination issues.
Just a reminder that opening the Xbox 360 case voids the warranty. If your console is malfunctioning, call Xbox customer support. They can diagnose whether the system is malfunctioning, and will arrange for repair/replacement if necessary.
The manufacturing team pointed me to the exact part we used. More information on the material can be found here. Here is the way they describe the part, in case any of you want to buy more...(my emphasis):
THERMFLOW T558 provides the high performance properties typical of free-film phase change materials with the added benefit of easy removal. MULTIPHASE thermal interface pads are phase-change materials specially formulated for use in high performance devices requiring minimum thermal resistance for maximum thermal performance and component reliability. It provides the high performance of typical phase change materials with the added benefit of improved thermal stability over conventional phase change pads. It is a 0.005 inch (0.13mm) thick, inherently adhesive film that softens at device operating temperatures resulting in "grease-like" performance. T558 has been coated on one side of a conformal metal foil carrier. It is easily attached onto a heat sink or heat spreader, leaving the metal foil surface exposed. This foil eliminates the need of a protective liner, which simplifies the final assembly process and minimizes shipping concerns and contamination issues.
The original specification is included here. The Xbox 360 uses T558. Note the "gray/silver foil."
The guys over at kotaku.com also got a reply from Microsoft about this matter. It says the same as above including the usual marketing talk that there is no systemic issue, that the return rate is below the CE industry average of 3-5% and that all problems are being handled on a case-by-case basis.
Full Version: Microsoft Responds to Foil on Xbox 360 GPU Heatsink
Scenyx Entertainment Community > Xbox360 Forums > Xbox360 Hardware Forums > Xbox360 General / Hardware Chat
SUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUURE! Preety quick with a statement weren't they.
wow MS replied pretty quickly!
maybe a quick reply because they didnt have to fabricate a story... could be legit.
I have a feeling its legit... look how many 360s are out there without problems...
Why wouldn't it be legit? It clearly says on the vendor's website that the foil acts as a carrier for the thermal pad. I highly doubt a company would change its website information to appease M$ execs.
Also probably a quick response b/c they're getting sick and tired of being bashed by ppl in the production of the 360.
Even if it is a legit issue it's not necessarilly their fault - could be the line workers/employees at the factory among a dozen others. who knows!?!?
Even if it is a legit issue it's not necessarilly their fault - could be the line workers/employees at the factory among a dozen others. who knows!?!?
We found out about the video in Germany early this morning. When i got in this morning, I spent the next few hours talking to manufacturing, checking the spec, writing the messaging. I thought it took us too long to respond... 
Stuff like this is the job of PR, after all...
John (http://gamerscoreblog.com).
Stuff like this is the job of PR, after all...John (http://gamerscoreblog.com).
i called MS today about my box, it runs Ghost recon at around 20 fps while my friends runs his at a constant 60 or so. idk where the gpu is located in the box, but theres some kind of distortion on the plastic right where the "O" is in the XBOX 360 logo. I called them up today and as soon as i said "yea i think my xbox is melting" they went into overdrive and got me in contact with a supervisor and all this shit, was pretty funny. Anyway they asked me a bunch of random ass question like "did your XBOX 360 hurt anybody in the room" and "were there any witnesses to the event" weird shit like that. anyway i'm gettin a new 360 and i beleive UPS is picking it up monday.
DO A BARREL ROLL
DO A BARREL ROLL
This all makes good sense. I've used a very similar material by the same company (Chomerics) in place of Arctic Silver compound on my processors before in computers. Its actually very good stuff and doesnt leave the mess. It's a very thin piece of silver foil, but not with the goopy center like in the 360 pics. It actually transfers the same amount of heat energy as Arctic Silver if i recall correctly from a specs sheet. If anyone needs the chomerics part # for samples, let me know and ll get it to ya. cheers!
One interesting thing about MS's response is the description of the heat sink material having a grease-like behavior. Over on the Xbox forums a user posted photographs he had taken of a friend's dead Xbox 360 with heat sink removed...
http://forums.xbox.com/2897396/ShowPost.aspx
http://img216.imageshack.us/img216/1171/img23463oe.jpg
http://img388.imageshack.us/img388/6001/img23485fo.jpg
http://img388.imageshack.us/img388/5841/img23519kl.jpg
http://img125.imageshack.us/img125/6615/img23540kx.jpg
The photographs clearly show that the heat sink material had melted out onto the surrounding board. Do other heat sink materials become grease-like when hot? It makes you wonder if the heat sink filler used could still be the culprit. If it tends to liquify when hot such behavior could create a vicious cycle where as the GPU overheats the heatsink material it in turn liquifies so that it runs out resulting in even more overheating.
http://forums.xbox.com/2897396/ShowPost.aspx
http://img216.imageshack.us/img216/1171/img23463oe.jpg
http://img388.imageshack.us/img388/6001/img23485fo.jpg
http://img388.imageshack.us/img388/5841/img23519kl.jpg
http://img125.imageshack.us/img125/6615/img23540kx.jpg
The photographs clearly show that the heat sink material had melted out onto the surrounding board. Do other heat sink materials become grease-like when hot? It makes you wonder if the heat sink filler used could still be the culprit. If it tends to liquify when hot such behavior could create a vicious cycle where as the GPU overheats the heatsink material it in turn liquifies so that it runs out resulting in even more overheating.
YEah why arent the pads on all them? something seems screwy here. and as for the person with ghost recon at 20 FPS, what the heck is up with the case melting. Kinda like cooked %#ACK, More Graphix More Problems. Im still enjoying My XB1, with TSOP mod, and 300GB HD. Im in it mostly for DIVX flix now, but still an occasional round of Silent Scope, or Street Fighter.
QUOTE(tenaciousck @ Mar 11 2006, 06:26 AM) 
"did your XBOX 360 hurt anybody in the room" and "were there any witnesses to the event" weird shit like that. anyway i'm gettin a new 360 and i beleive UPS is picking it up monday.
DO A BARREL ROLL
funnny stuff
QUOTE(downlowfunk @ Mar 11 2006, 06:53 AM)
YEah why arent the pads on all them? something seems screwy here. and as for the person with ghost recon at 20 FPS, what the heck is up with the case melting. Kinda like cooked %#ACK, More Graphix More Problems. Im still enjoying My XB1, with TSOP mod, and 300GB HD. Im in it mostly for DIVX flix now, but still an occasional round of Silent Scope, or Street Fighter.
clearly by the chart posted they use multiple substrates. people need to relax
M$ is mostly playing damage control. they know there is a major problem on the heat transfer on the video GPU chip. I mean every unit thats been returned has had some sort of failure in that area. I don't know for sure but they might need to get with ATI and come up with another chip that doesn't need to run as hot. Another thing that M$ did change the spec on what the power spec's to the GPU. ATI wanted to make sure they have a power source near the video chip because of some issues. I think all these problems are just plain hardware design maybe they placed the GPU too close to somthing else or maybe the GPU is not getting fitted correctly on the board before its pressed on. All I know is this is round 1 of the xbox 360 and I expect the 2nd and 3rd version of the unit will be alot better. As for the rest of you that own the friest versios all you can do is just pretty much find goodways to keep your units cold other than that I doubt you will have any problems. and the majorty that doesn't have any trouple is mostly because they must not have a heat issue with there unit.
QUOTE(tenaciousck @ Mar 11 2006, 06:26 AM)
Anyway they asked me a bunch of random ass question like "did your XBOX 360 hurt anybody in the room" and "were there any witnesses to the event" weird shit like that.
Off course, doing so is immoral and you do not show any principals. Then again, MS is also immoral and also doesn't show any principals.
@ howarth
thank you very much for posting your fotos.
weŽll try to make some similar ones and post it too.
bg
konsole24.de
thank you very much for posting your fotos.
weŽll try to make some similar ones and post it too.
bg
konsole24.de
QUOTE(psx-guru @ Mar 11 2006, 12:06 PM)
@ howarth
thank you very much for posting your fotos.
weŽll try to make some similar ones and post it too.
bg
konsole24.de
This is my fotos
Taken yesterday. This is my friend`s broken Xbox360 (3 red lights). His console worked normally about 3 month, and then (right after march dash update) bam! - tree red lights. Under the heatsink we found foil. My already fixed xbox360 and friend`s one was from same shipment (MFD end of september)My Xbox360 died after 2 moths of flawless work. 3 red lights and black screen
. Becouse i live outside of US (i live in Russia) and lack of guarantee, i opened xbox360, find out foil and removed it. Btw, between heatsink and foil was a big bubble of air and no thermal paste, just like on fotos. After removing of foil, placing new thermal paste and assembling, my xbox360 worked absolutely fine, without any signs of errors.QUOTE(CAXAP @ Mar 11 2006, 12:53 PM)
This is my fotos
Taken yesterday. This is my friend`s broken Xbox360 (3 red lights). His console worked normally about 3 month, and then (right after march dash update) bam! - tree red lights. Under the heatsink we found foil. My already fixed xbox360 and friend`s one was from same shipment (MFD end of september)My Xbox360 died after 2 moths of flawless work. 3 red lights and black screen
. Becouse i live outside of US (i live in Russia) and lack of guarantee, i opened xbox360, find out foil and removed it. Btw, between heatsink and foil was a big bubble of air and no thermal paste, just like on fotos. After removing of foil, placing new thermal paste and assembling, my xbox360 worked absolutely fine, without any signs of errors.Well, all you foil fan boys can eat that. (sorry I had to use the fanboy label). Now I say this to the Micrsoft Troll who reads this forum, you better forward this to your boss. Thermal grease, even generic brand cannot cost that much in bulk, get with it. What's better saving nickels, and spending money on Warranty replacements? Or spending nickels, and saving money on warranty replacements? Sometimes I wonder, I myself am a Highschool dropout, have a GED, very little college, yet I find myself learning from my mistakes in saving a buck here and there. MS with its combined centuries of experiences should be able to think and operate at a higher logical level than I.
QUOTE(zikronix @ Mar 11 2006, 08:58 AM)
clearly by the chart posted they use multiple substrates. people need to relax
Either I cant comprehend the XS front page, or I cannot comprehend your post, I feel.
The Chart just shows the multiple substrates, and the accompanying article says that MS uses T558.
We should also examine the working xboxs, and why they are working. As soon as my warranty was up I could not stop myself to open the sucker up. I know that most people don't fix what isn't broken, but I prefer preventive maintenance. I accidentally shut the door on my entertainment center while playing Halo 2 for about two hours. I opened my entertainment center and it was very very hot inside. I did not have so much of a hiccup on my box. When I pulled the GPU HS off, I had the foil. The foil looked very flat and seemed to do the job. I had thermal grease all over the place which took me about an hour to clean off. I put AS5 on and put it all back together and I have a significant temp drop according to my multimeter. A friend of mine had to send back his box and it felt like a hot hair dryer on the back of his box.
Where there are problems there are business opportunities. If there is no xbox360 mod, modders can make money cleaning off the HS and applying AS5. I think I would charge $50 to do something like that.
Where there are problems there are business opportunities. If there is no xbox360 mod, modders can make money cleaning off the HS and applying AS5. I think I would charge $50 to do something like that.
QUOTE(tenaciousck @ Mar 11 2006, 12:26 AM)
i called MS today about my box, it runs Ghost recon at around 20 fps while my friends runs his at a constant 60 or so. idk where the gpu is located in the box, but theres some kind of distortion on the plastic right where the "O" is in the XBOX 360 logo. ...
That discoloration around the O is completely normal, all 360s have that, it looks that way because that's the injection point when they molded the case, there's a whole topic in this forum somewhere.
your xbox is not melting BTW the GPU is UNDER the DVD drive, so your DVD drive would have to bee completely melted to crap before you'd even start to see deformation on the lid.QUOTE(downlowfunk @ Mar 11 2006, 12:53 AM)
YEah why arent the pads on all them? something seems screwy here....
While I think this is really a non-issue (people blowing up thinking they found the problem when really they just have no idea what they're looking at) I'm glad it happened. MS responded to the issue with the quickness, typically they just deliver a "no comment" but now we're getting an explanation of the manufacturing process. It's good and it's the kind of answer we want to hear from them when stuff like this happens.
well, going back to the chart, does it not say that the thermal impedance of the T558 (foil) is TWICE that of the T557 (no foil)? that can't be good...
If M$ just put Arctic Silver 5 on it from the beginning, all our woes would probably be gone...
also, for anybody that got their 360 sent back from repair: did it have the foil on it?
If M$ just put Arctic Silver 5 on it from the beginning, all our woes would probably be gone...
also, for anybody that got their 360 sent back from repair: did it have the foil on it?
Pardon my ignorance on this subject, but isn't the reason why Arctic Silver or the like isn't used in the manufacturing process is because this thermal paste stuff needs to be re-applied every year or so?
QUOTE
Just a reminder that opening the Xbox 360 case voids the warranty. If your console is malfunctioning, call Xbox customer support. They can diagnose whether the system is malfunctioning, and will arrange for repair/replacement if necessary.
yeah, and wait a month for it to come back. Don't think so.
QUOTE
The manufacturing team pointed me to the exact part we used. More information on the material can be found here. Here is the way they describe the part, in case any of you want to buy more...(my emphasis):
THERMFLOW T558 provides the high performance properties typical of free-film phase change materials with the added benefit of easy removal. MULTIPHASE thermal interface pads are phase-change materials specially formulated for use in high performance devices requiring minimum thermal resistance for maximum thermal performance and component reliability. It provides the high performance of typical phase change materials with the added benefit of improved thermal stability over conventional phase change pads. It is a 0.005 inch (0.13mm) thick, inherently adhesive film that softens at device operating temperatures resulting in "grease-like" performance. T558 has been coated on one side of a conformal metal foil carrier. It is easily attached onto a heat sink or heat spreader, leaving the metal foil surface exposed. This foil eliminates the need of a protective liner, which simplifies the final assembly process and minimizes shipping concerns and contamination issues.
The original specification is included here. The Xbox 360 uses T558. Note the "gray/silver foil."
Xbox-Scene
THERMFLOW T558 provides the high performance properties typical of free-film phase change materials with the added benefit of easy removal. MULTIPHASE thermal interface pads are phase-change materials specially formulated for use in high performance devices requiring minimum thermal resistance for maximum thermal performance and component reliability. It provides the high performance of typical phase change materials with the added benefit of improved thermal stability over conventional phase change pads. It is a 0.005 inch (0.13mm) thick, inherently adhesive film that softens at device operating temperatures resulting in "grease-like" performance. T558 has been coated on one side of a conformal metal foil carrier. It is easily attached onto a heat sink or heat spreader, leaving the metal foil surface exposed. This foil eliminates the need of a protective liner, which simplifies the final assembly process and minimizes shipping concerns and contamination issues.
The original specification is included here. The Xbox 360 uses T558. Note the "gray/silver foil."
Xbox-Scene
Holy Sh*t! is this the first time they gave info that the scene wanted?????????
OMFG!
QUOTE(johnporcaro @ Mar 10 2006, 10:23 PM)
We found out about the video in Germany early this morning. When i got in this morning, I spent the next few hours talking to manufacturing, checking the spec, writing the messaging. I thought it took us too long to respond...
Stuff like this is the job of PR, after all...John (http://gamerscoreblog.com).
Hey look, it really is John,....
anyway thanks for taking the time to gather information to answer the scene's questions (i always knew that your team is watching)
and this is why i dont have an xbox 360.... they are like ovens... why not just dremel a slot on the front and cook pastries in it... like a high powered E-Z bake oven.
well i have been working with computers more then 20 years and tape on can only add to hinder heat transfer as seen. Allso just take a closer look at the color of the cpu/gpu from a straw color to a blue says to me To HOT bad heat transfer all cooling starts with ability to transfer heat .
For all those people saying why didn't they use AS5 or thermal grease, how much harder is it to apply AS5 as compared to a thermal pad?
The pad can be applied during the assembly process (of the heatsink), whereas the AS5 would have to be applied during installation and would quite possibly increase the amount of defective units rolling out. When it comes down to it, the pad is an easier solution. And as mentioned, it clearly isn't the only cause of problems as many users aren't having issues with pads...
The pad can be applied during the assembly process (of the heatsink), whereas the AS5 would have to be applied during installation and would quite possibly increase the amount of defective units rolling out. When it comes down to it, the pad is an easier solution. And as mentioned, it clearly isn't the only cause of problems as many users aren't having issues with pads...
Sounds like there are bubbles getting in between the heat sinc and the T558.
and I think placing the 360 verticle would be the reason the paste ran out.
I don't see why they couldn't apply the paste part to the cpu and the silver towards the heat sinc.
Then when it was time to put the heat sinc on remove the metal piece. They could have the paste on a type of wax paper or something so it could come off easy once the paste was on something.
It definatly sounds like a downward spiral with this set up. The hotter it gets the more chance it has of heating up even hotter.
Everyone might not be having a problem with the pads, but Im beting around 80% are having probs with over heating. M$ should have found he best way for cooling and stuck with it.
and I think placing the 360 verticle would be the reason the paste ran out.
I don't see why they couldn't apply the paste part to the cpu and the silver towards the heat sinc.
Then when it was time to put the heat sinc on remove the metal piece. They could have the paste on a type of wax paper or something so it could come off easy once the paste was on something.
It definatly sounds like a downward spiral with this set up. The hotter it gets the more chance it has of heating up even hotter.
Everyone might not be having a problem with the pads, but Im beting around 80% are having probs with over heating. M$ should have found he best way for cooling and stuck with it.
So is it highly recommended to place your 360 horizontal to avoid future problems with the GPU/CPU's thermal grease from leaking out to the side??
I have both my 360's vertical(and one of my past 360's died while the other is still alive and kicking. I got a new one tho that survived the march update, so technically.. I got two 360's that are okay after march update), so I guess I'll set em horizontal then.. Only thing I'll hate to do is re-organize my whole entertainment shelving, cause I got one xbox too many.
However, isn't there a problem with running 360's horizontal?? Don't discs get scratched easier cause of downward gravity pull?? Or is that problem more so prone to happen with the 360 vertical?
I have both my 360's vertical(and one of my past 360's died while the other is still alive and kicking. I got a new one tho that survived the march update, so technically.. I got two 360's that are okay after march update), so I guess I'll set em horizontal then.. Only thing I'll hate to do is re-organize my whole entertainment shelving, cause I got one xbox too many.
However, isn't there a problem with running 360's horizontal?? Don't discs get scratched easier cause of downward gravity pull?? Or is that problem more so prone to happen with the 360 vertical?
also, doesn't the 360 run hotter while placed horizontal?? I dunno how it best cools or how the airflow works.. horizontal or vertical.
i think horizontal is ok. I have had several 360's laying horizontal, i just sold each one cuz i kept getting higher release dates. Anyway, I think the newer ones wont scratch discs. I put a demo disc in and move it vertical and horizontal and it didnt scratch it, just made a funky noise. I have never had any problems with overheating either even with one of the october made ones.
Heh, I just started a job at Circuit City and guess what I encountered my first day? A non-working XBOX 360 return. Whether it was really defective or the guy just wanted his money back without a restocking fee is another story. Still kind of funny though...
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