After reading some of the excellent detective work here re the red lights of death and going over the couple of dead consoles here with a microscope, I've come to the conclusion that in most cases the red lights of death is due to a simple design flaw, not to overheating or poor soldering.

We seem to be seeing consoles where the motherboard has flexed and a few of the solder balls or pads have given way at the corner of the CPU or GPU as pointed out by SMTRework and others.

Now why would a motherboard flex?

The answer is the heatsink clamp design.

If you look at the clamp design, *all* of the pressure to hold the heatsink down is in one tiny point. The centre of the X clamp has a plastic 'spacer button' that sits hard against the bottom of the motherboard and that causes all of the stress to push upwards (towards the bottom centre of both the GPU and the CPU.)

What is the reaction to that upward force? the corners of the motherboard flexing in the opposite direction.
Because the motherrboard is not screwed down to the chassis in the areas around the CPU and GPU the natural reaction is for the board to flex downwards slightly because of the pressure in the middle pushing upwards.

When the console gets hot, the solder balls may become slightly softer allowing the board to flex further and the break occurs.

Even if the soldering was perfect the poor design of the heatsink clamps means the corners of the CPU and GPU are going to be under tension.

So perhaps the fix would be to remove the clamps altogether, fit 'screw in' pegs to the chassis and screw down the motherboard and the heatsink so rather than tension being on the board to flex, it is actually encouraged to stay flat. The existing holes in the board where the clamp attached would be ideal.

So extra cooling and other measures may not do squat unless you remove the tension of the giant pimple trying to push up from the bottom.

nice piece of info m8 all of this is so true, i've read about this many times though

Still going strong since chucking the crappy x clamps in the bin where they belong...

ah sorry mate - just posted a thread with an almost identical conclusion (mod section - I guess should have been in chat ... )

....

So what are you using to apply pressure onto the die if you've got rid of the x clamps .. ?

i agree with you for the most-part as i have had this problem with my 360 before. However, i do not think the main cause of the motherboard flexing is from the Heatsink clamps unless there are abnormalities in the shaping and design of the heatsink and/or x-clamp, which may shift the pressure point "off-center".

Like you said, "The centre of the X clamp has a plastic 'spacer button' that sits hard against the bottom of the motherboard and that causes all of the stress to push upwards". But because the clamp is only physically attached the heatsink on the otherside off the mobo and nothing else, the same force is exerted back through to the pressure point caused by the X clamp as stated by Newton's third law of reciprocal actions (For every action force there is an equal, but opposite reaction).

So to go over that again, the center point of the x-clamp exerts an upwards force on the motherboard, which in turn causes the attached heatsink to be pulled downwards with exactly the same force as the upwards force (assuming the heatsink and x-clamp are perfectly 'shaped' and manufactured). Seeing that the heatsink applies pressure on top of the cpu/gpu, and the x-clamp applies pressure underneath the cpu/gpu, i don't believe the x-clamp and heatsink design are to be the blame........

.......unless (like what mentioned a second ago) there are even minor abnormalities in the shaping of the heatsink and/or x-clamp, which may shift the pressure point "off-center" (eg, if one of the four heatsink clamping pins is ever so slightly different in height to the other three, then the pressure point applied by the heatsink and the x-clamp will not match.....and that's where you may get problems), which means a manufacturing flaw, etc other than a design flaw.

as true as my post above is, i've just remembered/realised that the heatsink actually screws onto the case and is not left to act like a normal x-clamp would in a pc. The reasoning i made remains the same though - the designs are probably 100% correct, but very small abnormalities in the shaping of the heatsink could potentially cause issue whether or not it is screwed onto the 360 metal case anyway.

(apologies for my stupidness)

The problem is that it is way beyond the tolerance these things are manufactured to to expect that you get a perfect alignment of force, the slightest bit out and you have an untenable situation.

It is a design flaw as the motherboard area around the CPU and GPU absolutely should be screwed through to the case (via pegs/standoffs) to keep that area of board flat as a tack.
With the heat and airflow on that thing, a single pressure point clamp, and a motherboard only secured via the corners is a recipe for disaster.

A simple design with the mobo secured to the case at the four points around the perimeter of both the CPU and GPU solves the problem. It is just poor design.

Mine is still glitch free so far.


To be clearer it is a combination effect of the x clamp system *and* the motherboard effectively floating that combines to cause the problem.
I can't believe they didn't really lock the mobo down to the case similar to a PC, especially on something designed to run vertically.

With the weight of the CPU heatsink, I think it needs to have a standoff beneath it which will replace the center of the X-clamp. Although the standoff shouldn't apply upward pressure, it needs to be there inorder to prevent the center of the CPU part of the board from drouping.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if the CPU heatsink's weight+heat+horizontal orientation is what finished my unit off. With the front right of my GPU slightly higher than all other corners, a downward movement of the board under the CPU is highly possible.

I've done away with the X-clamps, but I'm far from done with redesigning the mounting. I have a 0020 error to overcome also, so it might take a while, but I've been taking pictures every step of the way and will post them up when I'm happy I've made progress.

Please do post some pics cause I dont even know what the GPU is. I really wanna try what you guys are suggesting if it did indeed work.

GPU means Graphic Processing Unit, which explains what it stand for, its basicly the brain of the graphics.

I agree, I put a plastic 'peg' under the middle of the CPU as a support to keep that whole section of the board nice and flat.

Does anyone make aftermarket heatsinks for the 360? It would be nice to get some real copper designs with proper clamps and board support from one of the 3rd party vendors and then we could kiss this problem goodbye for everybody.

I'm not discounting your theory or anything, just trying to help come up with the right answer. So please don't take this the wrong way.

If this issue was caused by the board flexing, how come it does not affect PCs? These days, heat sinks are getting heavier and chunkier all the time. Some of the large ones made by Cooler Master and such companies are huge. They hold on to a processor and board and dangle that weight horizontally. They've gotten so large that some need bracing that goes on the under side of the board to keep the heatsink from ripping the socket off the board. To add to that, in my PC I'm using Cooler Master's Aqua Gate Mini (Seen below) and the pump/heatsink that sits on the processor has a bracing that goes underneither to CPU to litteraly sandwhich, hold and apply force to the CPU to make sure it has good contact as well as a secure mount.

this theory does sound interesting...

I'm all for discussing the whys and why nots to try and get the proper answer.

There are multiple reasons you don't get the problem on PCs.

1) The PC mainboard is properly secured to the baseplate via pegs/standoffs at multiple points across the board. This keeps the board nice and flat and prevents warping. On the 360 the board is only secured around the edges leaving it lots of room to warp and flex.

2) Most of the PC heatsink clamping methods I have seen put the clamping pressure *outside* the perimeter of the CPU, i.e. it attaches to the board or baseplate at 4 anchor points which surround the chip(which is what should be done on the 360) i.e. the clamp pressure is not focussed on the bottom side of the board under the centre of the CPU.

If the CPU/GPU was just a flat plate that sat directly on the board perhaps you wouldn't get as much of a problem, but the CPU/GPU sit above the board on top of the solder balls. So there is an air gap and therefore no equivalent downwards pressure from the top.
So the upwards pressure point under the centre of the CPU/GPU does not have the CPU/GPU sitting hard against the top of the board so the board wants to flex upwards at the centre point (towards the chips) causing the rest of the board to want to flex downwards (away from the chips).

You can simulate the effect quite easily and see it happen.

Clamping the chip down properly (like on a PC) and securing the boards properly (like on a PC) makes the problem go away.

Last night I put the original clamps back on and had the ring of death within 20 minutes, put my PC style clamps back on and played for the rest of the night without incident. I fired it up again today and it is still running just fine.

So it is looking like the culprit, but really I will only know if my 360 is still running in 6 months time I guess.

@Elemino -

You have to factor in the quality of the PCB that is used to produce the 360 motherboards. Its poor. Some PC motherboards cost more than the 360 itself and are of far higher quality componentry. The 360 is a high volume, mass produced product that is made as cheaply as possible because it is made at a loss to the supplier (MS).

You aren't comparing apples with apples.

True, so even *more* reason to peg the board down properly to prevent flexing.

I still haven't had a single problem since replacing the clamping mechanism - so far so good.

I have ordered the talismoon replacement rear fans though, better to be safe than sorry
50% more air moved, drawing less current *and* making less noise sounds like a good deal.

Still not a single glitch since replacing the heatsink clamps, had a 15hr straight session with GoW, and my eyes are now bleeding but the console is fine

I put the talismoon fans in and they are just GREAT.

I also got the XCM fan , but it sucks hairy balls, doesn't move much air and sounds like a hurricane

I've started fixing other people's 360s using this method, and we haven't had a single failure yet. If any Aussies want me to have a go at fixing theirs, let me know and I'd be happy to give it a shot.

I'm not sure what you mean by using Pegs. I have fitted lots of PC boards and CPU's, but can't visualize what you are describing.

Can you take a picture for us to make it clearer what is involved?

Thanks

Hi, I have tried a similar method to yours (using screws and nuts to secure the heatsink and motherboard to the case) and have fixed the 3 red lights but occasionally I still get freezing problems. It seems that you are having a good success rate and I am interested in applying your technique to see if I can fix the screen freezes. Please can you post pictures so that I can copy EXACTLY what you have done.

Hi dudes,

this debate seems interesting please share your thougts and post some pics

Thanks

Next 360 I fix I'll take some pictures, I will need to borrow a camera.

Steddyman, by pegs I mean like on a PC motherboard. You have brass pegs (or plastic spacers) between the PC case and the motherboard. i.e. the things you screw the motherboard onto, that keep it up off the case.

To give more detail, basically I find the faulty balls, reflow so that they are not faulty any more. Then apply new thermal paste and spacer dots to the corners of the two chips (to apply some pressure from the heatsink onto the corners of the chips. I got the idea from old athlon chips where they used to do this)

Then drill holes in the baseplate and put motherboard support pegs into the base metal plate of the case I sue plastic ones cut to size. I put rubber 'cone' supports under the centre of the GPU and CPU (between the metal baseplate and the bottom of the mobo)

I then screw down the heatsinks and use spring washers so that I can tighten and then ease off a bit so as not to overtighten. I fit talismoon fans at the back to help keep the heat under control and in some cases fit a fan to the CPU cooling tower. (I tried the XCM fan but it is insanely loud).

I would love one of the aftermarket companies to release a kit to do something like this so you could do it to your 360 *before* it fails.

I'm not claiming this is the perfect solution, just that it has worked so far on 360s where the towel fix or toothpick fix or airgun fix only gave a really short term fix.

Things I haven't done but think I should are fit bigger feet to the 360 to get ventilation in from underneath, and put some ventilation in the top.
But I'd like a clear case so I could follow the airflow with a fogger to make sure the mods were actually moving the air where it should go and not amking the situation worse.

Thanks for the detailed explanation. I am still not 100% sure on some of those points, but its definetly clearer.

It would be fantastic if you could do a step by step process including photos that we could put up in the tutorial section.

When you said you reball them, are you doing that using a soldering iron or are you simply reflowing with a heatgun?

I already have the Talismoon fans fitted and the XCM fan (yes its LOUD) and also a laptop cooler sat underneath. It does lockup less than it used to, but it still locks and went three times in two hours the other night.

Where are you based? I wondering if this is something you could offer me as a service. I'm in the UK.

I'd love to help but I am in Australia.

I don't reball them, I just reflow if I can. I went and bought a cheap ($150) rework station, but I have actually found I sometimes get better results by just running it with the fans off and a bit of weight on the corner of the chips.
You can tell by looking close up wether the solder has remelted or not.

If it is still locking up I'd recheck your thermal paste is still good, if you don't lap the heatsink the CPU needs a lot of paste, the ones I have seen are really rough. I'd also try to see on your board exactly which connections are faulty and try to reflow somehow if you can.

My Xbox 360 just had the Three Red Rings (of death). And I must say I am very confused. The first time this happened, the whole box would not respond. It just blinked. Fair enough. Since I have flashed my Xbox 360 (and it is passed one year (and I live in EU)) then my warranty doesn't cover this one so I decided to do nothing at all.

I mean. It has been standing in the same spot since I got the Red Lights. Then I suddenly thought: "maybe not just try it one more time?" after a couple of weeks. Then it worked flawlessly. I mean, I could play games, watch DVD for hours, turn the unit off and on and no red lights. And it worked for about 2-3 more weeks. Yesterday it died on me again. But the strange thing is. I turn it on using the Universal Remote control. See the red lights and I can turn the unit off again with the remote (which I think is strange since they say this is hardware failiure.).

But if that the first post here is the case, I could give it a try if you want? I'm just not entirely sure what you mean. Do you mean the screws that attach the heat sinks to the mobo or the "X"'es holding them?

Kind regards. CaZpeR

There is nothing odd about still being able to turn the unit on and off when it is in 3 lights of death mode.

I remove the Xs that are under the board completely.

I haven't gotten the red lights yet, but I am getting lockups almost every time I play. I am going to dig in soon and try some stuff, but I fear I will do more damage than good.

I think that a GPU heatsink replacement is absolutely paramount. I have no idea why they even went with aluminum there, that is just about the most retarded thing ever. I know the close proximity to the CPU heatsink causes issues, as well as the height to the DVD drive, but has anyone tried to fit a video card cooler on it like a Zalman or something? I was thinking the VF900-Cu but I think that the holes may be too far apart.

Someone needs to come out with something quick. It needs to be copper, NOT cover the 2 RAM chips on the side and not have an X clamp for install.

dokworm: Would we be able to acheve the same results by using a screw with a plastic washer coming from the bottom and use a nut (or other such screw down type) on the top of the sink to torque it down? I have done this with a few PCs on the Northbridge/Southbridge. Or do you think it will be too much pressure on the holes of the board?

If you use the correct thread bolts then there is no need for a nut on the top, you can screw straight into the existing thread.

Your suggestion works just fine, but you need to be really careful not to over torque the bolts. One way is to use a spring washer, screw it down till the washer flattens out and then back it off until the washer starts to expand again, that way you know it isn't insanely tight.
Alternatively you could use those rubber/neoprene whatever washers people use to isolate vibration on their hard drives I guess.

Either way it pays to do the simple trick of running without the fans first to at least have a chance of the solder joints becoming a little better and then clamp it, or clamp it and run without the fans.

Ideally you want to put something on the corner of the chips, like a compressible heatpad that will transfer the heatsink downwards pressure to the perimeter of the CPU and GPU instead of it being just on the centre of the chips. It is the corners that tend to lift, not the centre.

I had a Lost Planet marathon last night (about 10hrs straight with occasional pee breaks) on the console that we only did the bolts from the bottom of the board up into the heatsink and didn't get a single issue.

Other interesting aside, the ones we have bolted down don't seem to make as much fan noise as the one unopened 360 that we were linked to. I wonder if the better thermal paste and better clamping means they don't get quite as hot?

I'm using pads like on the old athlons, like these.

Excellent.

Well I have tracked my problem down to GPU heat. I don't have any artifacting when it locks, just a frozen screen. I can still turn the power off. This at 1080i. If I switch to TV mode, no crashes whatsoever. So it looks like the extra heat generated when running high res is what is causing the crash.

Now I need to drill out this stupid screw. How important is that back plate? Does it actually make contact with the RAM on the back to cool it? Also, has anyone tried cutting the GPU sink in order to expose the RAM on the side of it so they can use ramsinks instead?

Any other insight would be great on this. I am going to be down 1 screw for sure on the back plate due to me having to drill this one out.

I found the same, running at 480p rather than 720p stops the hangs. It does look like the GPU is overheating.

I have cut my GPU heatsink and installed Zalman VGA ram coolers, but it still hangs.

I also have Talismoon fans and an XCM internal fan and an AS5 thermal upgrade. It did improve things to the poiint I could play a few hours, but it has started hangning more often again now.

That's why I am looking for a permanent fix.

Steddyman

I think you are on the right track. If you replace the X clip and run it without fans for a while (IE: blanket method) or do the heat gun you should be all set. The board won't flex anymore and it shouldn't happen again (in theory).

It looks like why the heat gun only lasts a while is because you reflow, but you still have the same defect - flexing the board. So after a while it just pops again and you are back to square 1.

If this wasn't a case for ZIFF sockets, I don't know what is.

while your "detailed" explanation isn't awful it leaves some stuff out. Are you screwing from the top down? Did you have to pull the metal pegs out of the existing heatsink? What size drill bit did you use...what are you using to thread the holes. Where did you buy the pads that are similar to the ones that come on the athlons?


I have no idea what this means

I'd like to see some pics.

The metal pegs from the existing heatsink just unscrew, and yes I take them out completely.

To thread the holes in the chassis I am using a standard tap and die set, the usual tool for cutting a thread into metal.

I'm using door bumpers from the hardware store since I ran out of old athlon pads, I file them down to size. You could use cork dots, or anything that is compressible really.

If putting pegs under the four mount points of the heatsink then I screw in from the top.

If not putting pegs I use dome headed bolts from underneath and washers so the the height of the bolts head rests on the chassis which helps support the board. It all depends on what parts I have available at the time.

All the last statement means is I used a cone shaped piece of rubber between the chassis and the mobo to support the mobo under the middle of the CPU and GPU. They are stick on rubber cones that came with my PC motherboard and are used in the same way a plastic standoff would be.
i.e. it is just a piece of rubber for that part of the mobo to rest on to help keep it all flat.

Next dead 360 I get I'll take some pics, if anyone in Australia has one for me to fix I'll take pics of it, otherwise I'll just wait for another dead one to turn up amongst my friends or at the next LAN.

Do you do this to just the GPU or the CPU also? It seems that most of the problems are occuring with the GPU.

I absolutely do both.

To the previous question about cutting the GPU heatsink down, if you do that you will no longer have air dragging over the heatsink, it will just sneak in the side, so I don't think it is a good idea unless you redesign the airflow with a plenum.

Thanks dokworm

I think I understand everything you have done now. I will look towards giving this a try at the weekend and see if it fixes my problem.

Interestingly, if the problem is the pressure of the heatsink is focused on the center rather than the corners, then I bet the location of the 10mb DRM on the GPU is a bit of a problem. It is off to one side so may not be getting a perfect thermal connection with the heatsink.

The other post about using rubbers under the memory chips is interesting, but I think you are right in the fact this helps prevent the flexing problem. I already have passive coolers on my memory so I know its not heat causing the problem.

Guys - I seriously don't recommend cutting the GPU heatsink (maybe a bit late ..) - it's insufficient as it is - much better to just thermally attach the RAM to the GPU heatsink as follows -

RAM/GPU Heatsink ...

I totally agree here.

The ONLY way to have a smaller heatsink is to:

a) Make a custom copper one. Having a better conductive material will allow you to have a smaller area.

Rework the shroud to have no gaps.

You have to do both. On the other hand, if you are going to do that you might as well make the copper block the same size as the stock one and add thermal pads to the RAM. This way, you are taking even MORE heat out of there.

I don't have any of my tools here. Does anyone have the dimensions of the GPU cooler?



Did you actually remove the X clips? You may also have to add thermal pads to the RAM next to the GPU die, heatsinks to the exposed RAM on the top and thermal pads to the bottom of the board on the RAM there if it didn't come stock.

Yeah I think using thermal pads to get the memory onto the same heatsink is a good idea.

Did a phone around last night, still haven't had a single lockup or problem with any of the 360s yet (at least with the guys who were home and answered the phone) whereas all the fixes we did before proved much more temporary.

The other thing is you really need to lap the heatsink, especially the CPU one, or use a relatively thick application of thermal paste. The finish on the CPU heatsink is really rough on the units I have seen.

So when replacing the X clips altogether, what type of hardware did you guys generally use? Like, for the spacers specifically, how tall were they, what were they made of, and did they need to be threaded? How about the bolt/screw that was sent down from the top of the motherboard/heatsinks and into the casing - is the threading in the case itself already? How long of a bolt/screw did you have to use? Besides these spacers and bolts/screws, was there anything else you had to use to get the job done?

Right now I am working on mine. M5 screws will fit the threads directly into the heatsink. I have nylon washers that are the same height as the "nut" on the original standoff - so the heatsink won't be torqued down too far. Make sure you use a nylon washer on both sides of the board.

I am going to use thermal pads on the rear memory for heat transfer and to keep reduce the board from drooping in that area. Thermal pad on the top memory under the GPU heatsink and ramsinks on the exposed ones on the top. For additional heat management I am adding the Talismoon fans and doing the shroud work like RBJTech.

Remember, I never got the red lights. Just lockups. Only in High Def, if set to standard TV all was well. 11/05 was the build date.

Good posts guys.

Months ago I tried fixing about 10 360's with most working 2-3 weeks and then dieing again.

My theory on several of the design choices made on the 360 are as follows.

The pressure on the gpu die is not balanced. There are two heads on it (as you know).
The effect of the heatsink against it is a teeter totter of unequal pressure being applied
which with time contributes to the failure of the bga connections.
One thing I have felt is a heatcap (such as the ones sony uses) would help distribute the pressure of the heatsing to heatsource whilst allowing for a quicker dissapation and tranfer of heat.


Another factor while slight is the vibrations of the spinning drive.
Not a major factor but I put thin felt pads under the drive legs, to help deaden this effect, before screwing it together.

I like the idea of the pads brought up here and may try this at some point.

Cheers

EDIT:

I know Ms wanted to make the 360 nice and pretty but imho a couple more inches of thickness could allow for a better heatsink under the drive on the GPU. I'd like to see a casemod done to allow for a proper heatsing. hmmmm maybe a kit ?

I feel my 360 is going to soon bite the dust again, right now it's working thanks to the heat gun trick again. When it does go again, I'm going to reflow it and then properly fasten the motherboard around the CPU and GPU, and also add some pads to the chips underneath the heatsinks. I'll try to take pictures and document my progress, letting you all know how this turns out and maybe help everyone come to better conclusions.



Yeah I really think Microsoft went about it a bad way in responding to the first Xbox's criticisms. One was that the box was too bulky and ugly looking, and the other was that it was too loud and got very warm. Well, they must've thought that since the first console didn't have any heating issues, they could easily address the other two - the ugly appearance and the loud fans. However, they seemed to have either run out of resources to address this last issue, or completely ignored it. We may never know which. We do, however, know that they did something wrong because a fairly significant minority of 360 owners are experiencing the same things, which should tell you something.

Well the ironic thing was that one of the main problems with the XBOX 1 was that Japan had a real hard time with it asthetically. It was big and ugly. So what did they do? Hire a Japanese artist to help with the design? The outcome? A system that overheats, Japan still complains about look the system (now it's the power brick) and the PS3 is a BOHEMOTH and no one in Japan cares because it's Sony.

Lesson learned. Don't design your stuff around a culture that you will never penetrate.

Yep, just a little late for me

However, installing the heatsinks on the memory didn't make things worse for me.

My console was hanging every couple of minutes. I cut the heatsink and installed passive coolers on the memory and it started to last about an hour, sometimes less, sometimes more.

Since the GPU is hotter than the CPU and the CPU heatsink has much more mass, it seems a shame there isn't a way to link the GPU heatsink to the CPU sink.

Or how about putting thermal pads above the GPU to attach it to the underside of the DVD-ROM drive and let the case cool it?

I have just ordered an inexpensive rework station so I am going to try and fix this once and for all this weekend.

Steddyman

My ones don't seem to get as hot now anyway, but if someone made a replacement GPU heatsink from coppoer I'd buy one in a minute.

How do you do this for the GPU heatsink? The extisting pegs screw out, but the top of the holes are covered by the fins on the heatsink. The CPU doesn't have this problem.

Are you drilling out the hole on the GPU heatsink?

i think that there is a fair market for a "plug 'n' play" heatsink for the 360