This is from one of the Black controllers that came with the PnC Kit, be dumping that thing later on. I just had a Black controller apart the other day and it was still the old version,so not sure if only these are sporting the new design, or if it's something they all will be going to in the future. My guess is before long these will be turning up in all of the newer Wireless controllers since it pretty much dumps everything into just one IC. The battery has the same info on it as a regular PnC battery, so nothing different there so far, have to do a couple of charges with this new controller and compare that to see if anything different is being stored there. Ya can read more on the PnC battery Pack HERE to understand more of what all that was about.

I'll be tracing this new bad boy out as well, like I did with the Wired and Wireless before it as soon as I get some time to.

OLD 'MATRIX' VERSION TOP




NEW 'CG' VERSION TOP




OLD 'MATRIX' VERSION BOTTOM




NEW 'CG' VERSION BOTTOM




EDIT: First glance over this thing and it appears to be a common ground controller now, barf, though it will make for some other controller modifications I've been pondering easier.

what would be the point of switching to a common ground setup...

What is a "common ground setup?" RDC, I need your help. Do you know anythign about a tilt board, the talismoon ones? Can you visit this thread and tell me what I might need to do. Has anyone done this mod because I need to know, do I desolder each pentometer from each analog stick or just the right analog stick? That is just what is bugging me right now and the instructions don't say anything about that. By the way, I have a fifteen watt solder, is that good enough to solder the wires and what is the best way to desolder something so I don't ruin the board. Thanks.

It's where all the grounds are connected at the same time and active, with the positives being controlled. The other setup would be common power with the grounds being controlled.

A 'common ground' setup just means that ground is common to every button on the controller. For example, if you have A, B, X and Y those are 4 wires, then you have 1 other wire that is ground that is 'common' to all of the others, pressing A makes the connection from the A wire to ground, same with B, X and so on. The older controllers use a Matrix setup, where there are no common wires, some buttons do share the same connection as others, but there is no common line for them all like with a common ground setup. The advantage to the Matrix setup is you have fewer wires for the same number of buttons. The 16 buttons on the Wireless controller need 17 lines in a common ground setup, while in the Matrix setup it's only 8 lines.

I see no advantage to them switching to a common ground setup, but the thing works either way and only they know why the change up. Maybe the new IC is setup differently, maybe they couldn't figure out their own controllers when they started acting screwy, who knows. The advantage to a Matrix setup is fewer wires for the same number of buttons, that means less traces, and it can be smaller overall, but it's more of a headache to figure out. The common ground setup has been around in just about everything for a long time now, kinda odd to see it in the Wireless now after it being such a witch to figure out the first time.

Nice find RDC.

You think they changed up the wired controllers as well!???!

i guess this will finally satisfy all of the wireless controller in the guitar hero guitar threads

Let us know what you find out about the controller if there is anything new.

Maybe, though there wouldn't be any real point. have to await and see if I run across one that's different, just found this one yesterday and was quite shocked/pleased when I opened it up and nothing was in the right place and a lot was missing.



It has squat to do with the Wireless Guitar and the exact same problems still exist in making a Wireless one from the controller, nothing has changed in that respect.

this is a nice find I just bought a black controller with the PnC kit 2 days ago so now I will check it out. but the common groud setup will make mods for it easier.

and as always Thank you RDC.

P.S it looks the hte Besttilt ad Tiltboard may not fit internally on these new controllers.

OK, here we go so far. It IS a common ground setup now, probably cheaper in some way to make I imagine, and is anyway because they've eliminated 2 ICs from the design, the RF module and EEPROM. From what I've just looked at so far adding in extra buttons and such is going to have to be done with a more careful hand, most of the button traces run right to a via that goes right under the main IC, so as for anything being '"easier" on this board that's not really the case.

The LEDs are marked with a dot for Cathode and that whole setup now is common Cathode now, not like the old board where it was common Anode.





The things that are the same and will be interchangeable between this and the older version Wireless board are the...

Stick
Triggers
LB/RB switches
Case/Shell
Motors and their Connectors
PnC Connectors
Headset Connector
Sync switch



Welcome, and be interested to hear what board is in the one ya have also.

The tilt boards wouldn't work anyway, since the directions for them are for all the points in the old board. But yeah they're not fitting in here mechanically at all without some work.

Ok so I looked at the controller and my black controller with PnC was an old board.

Also if you remove the battery pack. look where the AA battery springs connect and if you see C62 then you have the old board. if you do not see C62 then you have a new board. Hope that helps.

I've done a little bit of tracing out this and that on this new CG (Common Ground) Wireless board, and I have to say it right suxx something awful. There's not one thing easier about using this board for anything. True it's common ground, which makes doing some things easier, but the way this thing is laid out you're gonna have to be really good with the iron, working with small traces, Vias and soldering onto IC legs if you want to do anything with it, otherwise, this controller just isn't for you and the older versions of it are a cake walk by comparison for soldering on to.

This is just a quick run of the A,B,X,Y, D-pad, Back, Guide, Start Lth, Rth, LB and RB buttons. You can see how you'll have to hit a Via or cut/scrape the trace to get anywhere with this thing, and the fact they're all grouped close together right where the rubber pad for the button contacts are makes it even more of a mess when you'd go trying to put it all back together with wires soldered to those Vias. The other side of the board is worse, where most of the other buttons traces run thru a Via then straight to the IC and nothing is really in an easy place to get to, pics of that when I get around to it and I'll be updating this one as well with the rest once I've got some time to finish it up.



TP1 - B+ (PnC Pack and AA Pack)
TP2 - Ground


TP8 - Analog Voltage, 1.5v
TP9 - DR
TP10 - Light Rumble
TP11 - Heavy Rumble
TP21 - USB D+ (PnC Cable)
TP22 - Ground
TP23 - USB D- (PnC Cable)
TP400 - Ground
TP407 - Ground


For anyone wanting to make an arcade board from it and be cheesy enough to just scrape the button contacts down it's an easy enough board to work with, but for adding another button here or there or doing some of the things I've done on the old Wireless version, this controller really bites, but not enough to keep me from figuring out how anyway.

I'd wager this thing costs half as much to make opposed to the older version board too, this thing really does have around half as many parts on it and looks like some third party controller raped a first party M$ one.

it does look like scince there are less components It would be easier to cut this board and make a wireless fatty. I may have to do that.

unfortunately I'm in the middle of bioshock, then I've got halo 3 + endless hours of multiplayer + assassin's creed and I've got to find time to actually go to work.

where would I find the time.

Here's the bottom of the board with RSC, LSC, LT and RT traced out, will get to the rest later. You can see from looking at both the top and bottom that A, B, X, Y and start (probably a few others I haven't gotten to yet also) go right thru a Via and under the IC, so on the top of the board is about the only place you'll be able to do anything with those buttons, aside from the actual legs of the IC once I map them out, but even then that's only really good for adding a duplicate button and for someone that can solder very well.

Man, dissapointing. Big FU to M$. (yes I know they are a business saving money, and with all of the problems they have, they need to).


Thanks for doing all that RDC!

Well, what I would have given for a 360 pad with common ground when I was converting my multi-system arcade stick... it would have been able to STAY a multi-system stick. (Currently it is 360-only)

Thanks for the research, RDC

You're Welcome guys. This is the first one I've seen and haven't seen one since, I imagine the new Wireless Guitars will be of a similar setup internally, but I'll have to wait until I get one to tear down and see.

This thing really does su-diddily-uck for most typical controller alterations, it's only really good use would be for a multi-system arcade stick to ease that mess, but for even the simple thing of adding an extra set of buttons on this is gonna be much more difficult that the older Wireless controller is by far.

All Buttons and Analog lines are now traced out (previous pics in this thread updated also) so this this is pretty much a done deal. If anyone needs a Higher Resolution (1600 x 800 or so) shot of them or a certain spot shoot me a PM and let me know. I did these up a little differently where I can remove all traces I've mapped out but the one ya wanna look at, so if ya need to just see something specific (like only the D-pad up trace for example) I can do that as well. I was about 1/4 of the way into the older ones before I realized I should been doing them this way, and at that point it was too late to erase what I'd started, so they're staying as is until I feel like wasting that colossal amount of time again to do them right like I did these.


Back - Light Blue
Guide - White w/Green Dot
Start - Orange
Sync - Dark Purple

A - Green
B - Red
X - Blue
Y - Yellow

D-pad Up - Yellow w/Black Dot
D-pad Down - Green w/Black Dot
D-pad Left - Blue w/Black Dot
D-pad Right - Red w/Black Dot

LB - Pink
RB - Purple

LSC (Left Stick Click / button) - Pink w/White Dot
RSC (Right Stick Click / button) - Purple w/White Dot

LT (Wiper) Blue w/Red Dot
RT (Wiper) Red w/Blue Dot

Left Stick (Wipers) X,Y Axis
White w/Blue X
White w/Blue Y

Right Stick (Wipers) X,Y Axis
White w/Red X
White w/Red Y


This is now a full common Ground controller setup, so the other side of any button is the exact same as the other side of every other button and ya can use any one of them for all of them, even the (-) Ground terminal for the AA batteries can be used, it's all connected and is Ground.

There really are no 'easy' spots on this thing to hit for adding extra buttons or making an Arcade Stick, but for the latter most people just scrape down the button contacts and use those spots which is still viable on this controller, but I don't care that method personally. So I may or may not point out all the Vias to hit on this board, if ya can do that kind of work where ya can scrape down the Via and not ruin it, then solder to it properly, ya don't need me to point out how, and if ya can't then ya shouldn't even be attempting it until ya practiced and can, or just have someone else do it that can to start with.


TOP



BOTTOM

Just a little update, as was already pointed out earlier by YUNG ERIC, if ya see C62 ya have the old board, though it's easier to look for L6/L1 on the right of the Headset connector (Old Matrix) or for C15 to the left of the Headset connector (New CG) to tell which board ya have. Here are a couple of pics of the New CG board compared to the Old Matrix board and what they look like thru the battery compartment, so ya can easily tell which ya have before cracking it open.







The CG2 thread can be found HERE

nvm

looks like they've done a hefty amount of optimizing. As you said, this must be heaps cheaper to produce for them. Also, having a linear (or CG as you call it) layout of the buttons is much easier to control and program for, but requires more I/O. I find it odd that they don't have more test points for factory testing though, but I guess its mostly PCB wise that it can go wrong here, and they'll do e-testing for that so the TP's aren't really needed for that.

I'm wouldn't be surprised if we see a similar optimization for the rf-board (ROL board) pretty soon too.

/p

which is the actual part that sends te radio waves to the 360, i dont know much about that so please dont flame

Are you referring to the Antenna? It's above the PnC connector at the top of the board. As for the actual RF 'circuits', those are now contained in the main IC there, the big black square, where on the older version Wireless it has a separate module for it.

man.. looked at the pictures again.. they really shredded the component count on this version, albeit that new IC might be a bit more expensive (doubt that it though, compared to the two ICs they had on the previous version).

Just wondering if you guys have opened a Halo Edition controller.
If so I would like to know which PCB it has.
Btw, great work with RDC.
Been thinking of modding my wireless, but I haven't got the tools for it

As far as I know the Halo controllers are the new version like this from what I've been hearing, but I haven't seen another one personally. This one came from a Black Wireless that comes with the PnC kit, but the next one I bought was the old version board. I'm sure before long they'll be turning up in all of the controllers though.

The controller almost has a full CG. The RT and the LT are not connected to the CG. They still have their own grounds. I was modding my controller and was trying to use the CG to produce the RT trigger button. It doesn't work. You have to use the ground directly from the trigger.

That's not ground, it's voltage. The Triggers on this version board go high (voltage to wiper) to activate, on the older version matrix board they went low (ground to wiper) to activate. It's still a full common ground controller, the Triggers are Analog like the Sticks are and don't follow that same setup. They're still connected to the same ground everything else is though to keep them 'off' thru the 10k of the POT.

what do you mean by "wipers"? I am trying to connect the RT to a PIC microcontroller that will send out shoot signals. The way I did it on the old ones isn't working with this one. Do you know how I would need to connect it?

The wiper is the center lead of the Triggers potentiometer. If you have the PIC setup to output a high signal for fire then all ya really need to do is connect that to the wiper thru some low value Resistor or wire up the optocoupler correctly, not sure how you went about that on the old ones and are going about that part, but there are a couple ways to do it there.

well on the older boards all I had to do was connect the output pin of the RT to the pin on the PIC with a 1K ohm resistor between. Then I would drive the pin to low to produce a RT push. I also wired up the X and Y buttons to my PIC as well. On the old board I used a dual channel optocoupler and wired them with that. I was trying to use the same kind of setup for the trigger, but I wasn't having any luck. If I use the D213 dual channel optocoupler to wire up the the trigger do you know where I need to connect which wires. Datasheet There is a link to the datasheet. I also have some of 4N27 optocouplers on hand. If I use that how would I connect that. Here is the datasheet for that one as well. Datashee 4N27


Thanks

Do the same as ya did on the older version board, just drive the pin high instead of low thru a 1k or so. That means you'll have to reconfigure those ports, but it'll work that way, this board is just backwards how the Triggers work is all.

If ya can't alter the code to do that then just wire up the optocoupler or phototransistor so that the voltage of the trigger there (top lead, RT2 in all of my diagrams) gets to the wiper (output pin, RT1) of the Trigger. On the older version board RT2 was ground and either shorting that to RT1 or driving RT1 low would make the Trigger fire, this new board is backwards and RT2 is voltage, so ya have to either drive RT1 high or wire it up so the opto/photo does.

Just thought I'd let everyone know that I have 2 green Halo controllers and both are the old setup, NOT the new CG one. Was very surprised to find that out. However, all of the Macfarlane Spartan and Covenant controllers (the ones with the glossy prints) I've seen are the new CG setup.

I meant the McFarlane Halo ones mainly, and have only heard that the 'stock' Halo edition ones were, guess they're mixing and matching there, unless everyone I heard say Halo edition meant the McFarlane ones instead of the Halo 3 console edition 'greenie' ones, Thanks for the info MeKiwi.

Im trying to understand exactly what you mean.



I have successfully done the triggers it like its shown above in the past with the 10k resistors... So how would it look compared to the above when modding the common ground controllers? Any help would be appreciated.

Same deal with the CG controller board, just do it the exact same way. The difference is how the controller is set up (new CG goes high instead of low when the Trigger is pulled) You still put the Resistor in the same place and wire up the new button to the same spots, nothing at all needs to be done differently.

Thanks!!!! Using your diagram I have a Mcfarlane Halo pad almost fully hacked except for the sync button. Any idea on what points I need a wire to for that button?

I reread the whole thread and noticed that you answered my question already. Thanks again!

Ok. Since RT2 is voltage I am having a problem as I am modding this PCD to be used with a saturn pad that only has 1 ground. I need to be able to "activate" the triggers with the same ground as the rest of the buttons. How can I do that?

The easiest way would be to use Transistors. You can use a PNP Transistor to invert that whole setup and use ground to turn them on then. When the Base of the PNP Transistor is low it'll turn 'on' the Collector and Emitter, which you'd have wired to the Trigger on the 360 controller. Base of the Transistor to the new button in question (signal side, not the ground side, ya want it so when the button is pressed the Base is connected to ground) Collector goes to RT1 and then Emitter to RT2.

ok so im pretty noob at controller mods and went to do my first one and found i have this new board

i want to add an a and b button..... where should i connect the grounds?
also can someone direct me to the correct vias to solder to so i can double check that i am using the correct ones for the positive?

any help would be awesome..... thanx

plz dont i are noob

THANKS!

EDIT: OK so I don't use the resistors... I just use the PNP Transistor wired to RT1 & RT2... The last connection on the PNP Transistor is then connected to a ground (common ground in my case) to create a button press and RT3 is not used at all. Is this all correct?

Also is there any particular PNP transistor I should get?

Ground is ground, you can use any spot for that connection, TP2 and TP22 on the back side of the board are real good ones for that. As for the A and B vias to use, be VERY careful scraping them down and soldering the wire to them, if they get messed up it would be a real witch to fix that thing back up so it worked again.

Green is A, Red is B





No, if you connect the Base of the Transistor to ground it'll be on all the time and a 10k or so Resistor should be used between the Base and Emitter leads to make sure it stays off when it's not used, and unless you leave the Triggers installed yes a 10k will still need to be installed there as well. You want the Base lead to be wired to whatever button you're going to press that ya want to be the Trigger, so when that button is pressed THEN the Base is connected to ground, are ya pickin up what I'm layin down? Any small signal type PNP Transistor will do, it's just being used as a switch.

I am trying to follow what you are saying. Here is a diagram of what I have now which is not working. What am I doing wrong?

You need to put a 10k Resistor between the Emitter and Base leads of the Transistor. Also, do you have the grounds of the 2 boards tied together? If not they need to be.

I have the grounds tied together. Below is the setup I have and when I connect the common ground to the base lead it resets the whole 360 controller. The PCB immediately cuts off then turns back on. What is connected wrong below?

I love this new version of the board. It is soo much easier to mod for button presses. I use a microchip to modify controllers and with the old version the output pins on the chip had to be ran to a Oprocoupler and the oprocoupler ran to both sides of the button that you wanted to activate. This ofcourse added extra wiring for the buttons as well as the optocoupler. With the new board all you have to do is run a wire from the output pin of the chip directly to the trace of the button that you would like to activate. It makes things alot easier. Another plus is that I can use the Capacitor on top of the board aas my powersource for the chip which will allow the chip to work with a rechargeable battery pack or the standard aa batteries. With the old board the only good powersource that I found were the battery terminals, so the chip wouldn't have power when using the battery pack. I just wish I could find a way to identify the new boards without having to open the battery bay.

RB8720

The fact that you wire can one button instead of two is great. Once I get the trigger voltage issue squared away and fix this transistor issue ill be set but im learning a lot in any case.

Put another 10k or so Resistor in series between the Base and the button, that worked for me here.


The + terminal of the PnC pack has power on it when using the PnC or AA pack, use that spot.