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grim_d
Well i have a POS athlon XP 2200 1.8 (o/c to 2.2) with 512mb ram on an asus A7v8x, which i have had for about 4 years now so it's time for an upgrade. This peice of crap is contantly overheating eve though i have both sides off the case, basically the entire thing is F**KED.

So It's time for a new pc, start from scratch, i'm setting myself a strict budget of £800, i have until the 28th to decide because that is when i WILL be ordering.

Ideas are as follows, this is not a rig built for gaming, it is being build for my 3d modelling work. it is a shame i wont be able to afford a fireGL workstation card but nevermind.

QUOTE


ASUS P5W DH Deluxe £105.53

Intel Core 2 Duo E6420 (2.13Ghz) Socket 775 FSB1066 4MB Cache £119.67 (O/C to 3.75Ghz)

Sapphire 2600XT 256MB GDDR4 Dual DVI-I TVOut PCI-E £88.76 (mainly for it's decent price and HD output)

Hiper 580W Type-R Modular PSU SLI/CrossFire Certified - Black £79.99

Corsair 2GB DDR2 800MHz PC2 6400 XMS2 Memory Non ECC Unbuffered CL4(4 4 4 12) E.P.P. £64.99

Case. £117.49

WD SATA HD £31.54



Total so far (including shipping) £624.15

This leaves me £175.85 for watercooling and any other bit's and bobs i may require.

I've pmed Dano2ko about watercooling and i'm planning on building a dangerden kit which i should be able to do for the budget, even if it's only cooling the CPU.

In the future i would like to add a 2nd GFX card for crossfire and another 2GB of memory.

So if anyone has any ideas on how i could lower some costs, alternate components etc i would apreciate it.

p.s getting a cheaper case is NOT an option.

Cheers.
throwingks
I think you can do better on the video card.
It all depends on what you use your machine for.

Plus. depending on your OS, going to 4GB of RAM may not be worth it. 32bit OSes can only handle about 3 efficiently.
sicknasty413
I have that motherboard smile.gif
grim_d
QUOTE(throwingks @ Sep 17 2007, 01:09 AM) *

I think you can do better on the video card.
It all depends on what you use your machine for.

Plus. depending on your OS, going to 4GB of RAM may not be worth it. 32bit OSes can only handle about 3 efficiently.


3d modelling as mentioned, it's not a gaming rig and i simply cannot afford a workstation card they are stupidly expensive, i just want to be able to effectivly output to my hdtv. But if you have any suggestions i'm all ears.

I didnt know that about 32bit OS's, i have been out the loop for a long time, but i can always run a 64bit linux build for blender3d
garver
You may want to look at the e4300/4400 cpus. I just re O/Ced mine to 3.5@ stock volts with a 20 dollar cooler.
grim_d
QUOTE(garver @ Sep 17 2007, 01:28 AM) *

You may want to look at the e4300/4400 cpus. I just re O/Ced mine to 3.5@ stock volts with a 20 dollar cooler.


i origionally looked at the 4400, but i think the extra 2mb cache, faster FSB and 250Mhz might be wortht he extra 40 quid, however i havnt totally setlled on it yet.
garver
If you water cool they can hit 3.75 with a voltage increase. The biggest differnce is the 2mb cache, but I think it only helps the most in things like Folding at home. The increase in FSB only showed a 1-2% increase in overall speed. They also require better ram to overclock because of the 1333 bus to the 800 of the 4400 which could save you some more money.

Little math.

e4400
3750/10=375x2=750mhz for ram

e6420
3750/8=469x2=938mhz for ram

http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/cpu/displ...o-e6420_11.html

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx...N82E16820148069 is 150 if you choose e6420

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx...N82E16820231098 is 75 if you choose e4400
gordo1111
For the video card I think a 8600gts could do better for a few bucks more. What resolution are you running at?
There's this debate going around the web of which CPU to choose. Personally I'd choose the e6420 because of the higher FSB and L2 cache.
garver
Just out of curiosity...What hard drive are you going to use?

Also you dont need a 580w powersupply.
http://www.extreme.outervision.com/psucalculatorlite.jsp

My computer uses on 410W running an
overclocked e4300@3.5
8800gts
2 sticks 1gb ram
2 HDD
1 dvd
3 fans
2 pci cards

Use that calculator to get a guess of what you need but remember amps are more important that watts. The only benifet I can see from using that powersupply is if the build is going to last for more than 3 years because as power supplys get older they lose the peak wattage.
grim_d
QUOTE(garver @ Sep 17 2007, 02:48 AM) *

If you water cool they can hit 3.75 with a voltage increase. The biggest differnce is the 2mb cache, but I think it only helps the most in things like Folding at home. The increase in FSB only showed a 1-2% increase in overall speed. They also require better ram to overclock because of the 1333 bus to the 800 of the 4400 which could save you some more money.

Little math.

e4400
3750/10=375x2=750mhz for ram

e6420
3750/8=469x2=938mhz for ram

http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/cpu/displ...o-e6420_11.html

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx...N82E16820148069 is 150 if you choose e6420

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx...N82E16820231098 is 75 if you choose e4400


the FSB on the 6400 is 1066 not 1333, this 6420 is the one step below the ones with 1333. However i am seriously considering going with the 4400


QUOTE(gordo1111 @ Sep 17 2007, 03:54 AM) *

For the video card I think a 8600gts could do better for a few bucks more. What resolution are you running at?
There's this debate going around the web of which CPU to choose. Personally I'd choose the e6420 because of the higher FSB and L2 cache.


currently 1280x1024. i looked at the 8600 but it doesnt have the HD options the ATI card does.


QUOTE(garver @ Sep 17 2007, 04:07 AM) *

Just out of curiosity...What hard drive are you going to use?

Also you dont need a 580w powersupply.
http://www.extreme.outervision.com/psucalculatorlite.jsp

My computer uses on 410W running an
overclocked e4300@3.5
8800gts
2 sticks 1gb ram
2 HDD
1 dvd
3 fans
2 pci cards

Use that calculator to get a guess of what you need but remember amps are more important that watts. The only benifet I can see from using that powersupply is if the build is going to last for more than 3 years because as power supplys get older they lose the peak wattage.


well at current specs it was just under 500w from that calculator and i will be adding a good few more hard drives so i guess it's better to be safe than sorry.

Also my boot HD will be a WD caviar 160gb 7200
gainpresence
You might be interested in this:
http://forums.guru3d.com/showthread.php?t=220942

I think you can do something similar with the 7950gx2 and the 6600gt too

Also, nVidia is probably the way to go for 3D, their cards tend to be a little more stable under that load
Albino
If you do end up running a linux distro so that you can have a 64bit OS, then I would stay away from ATI. A quick look around a couple of linux forums especially the gentoo one will tell you that ATI cards can be more bother than their worth. Nvidia simply have better driver support for their cards under Linux. ATI is rumored to be open sourcing their linux drivers at some point but that may be a long way off yet with all the licencing implications. If they were open sourced tomorrow I would say go with ATI but as of now for linux Nvidia is your best option.

I personally run a couple of different distros on different computers some with ATI some Nvidia, and getting dri to work on newer ati cards was a ball ache, plus if you like beryl, you cant use the fglrx drivers.
grim_d
QUOTE(gainpresence @ Sep 17 2007, 10:14 AM) *

You might be interested in this:
http://forums.guru3d.com/showthread.php?t=220942

I think you can do something similar with the 7950gx2 and the 6600gt too

Also, nVidia is probably the way to go for 3D, their cards tend to be a little more stable under that load


thats quite interesting, although i don't use 3dsmax.

i think i am going to go for a ati x1950PRO ultimate, it can be softmodded into a firegl v7xxx and for a quarter of the price, it comes in at £103

this leaves me £200 for cooling, this is what im thinking.

QUOTE


Danger Den TDX Intel 775 Block

Laing DDC-1 Ultra 18watt Pump with Plexi Reservoir Top

Black Ice Stealth GT 240 X-Flow

MCT-5 Non-Conductive Solution

Danger Den 1/2" ClearFlex 60 Tubing (5ft)

Zinc Plated Jubilee/Wormdrive Clip 12mm to 20mm (x10)



this comes to £162, but am i missing anything?
grim_d
finally got it all figured out.

going to get a x1950xt 256mb or an x1800xt 512mb and softmod it into a firegl7350. If i can get it cheap enough i will watercool it too.
EverestX
Well grim, looks like you have your head around this pretty good. I'll say that I don't know jack about 3D rendering, however you might find THIS Card of interest. A friend of mine that is into rendering said it was a good deal.

As for your set up, it all looks pretty nice. On the ram side, I would really see what you can't do to get some 1066/1333 sticks with tighter timings. The timings on the sticks you have chose are just fine though. However, from personal experience I can tell you how very sad it is to find out your ram isn't fast enough to run 1:1 with your CPU overclocked. You will notice the difference between your ram FSB at 800 vs. it's ratted 1066. Running dividers can loose performance and for rendering I would venture to guess that 2gb on tight timings @ 1t will run better than loose timings @2t running 4gb. Some people dont mind the dividers and 2t's, they drive me crazy though.

That PSU you have picked it pretty nice, if you can afford it though the HX620 PSU is much more stable and has less 3/5v rail fluctuation (hyper 580 is known to over volt on the 12v rail, which for OCing can work out great in some cases.)

Just out of curiosity what case? Best of luck.
grim_d
QUOTE(EverestX @ Sep 18 2007, 10:04 PM) *

Well grim, looks like you have your head around this pretty good. I'll say that I don't know jack about 3D rendering, however you might find [url=http://www.case-mod.com/nvidia-quadro-fx-3000g-professional-256mb-vid
eo-card-with-framelock-p-2172.html]THIS Card[/url] of interest. A friend of mine that is into rendering said it was a good deal.

As for your set up, it all looks pretty nice. On the ram side, I would really see what you can't do to get some 1066/1333 sticks with tighter timings. The timings on the sticks you have chose are just fine though. However, from personal experience I can tell you how very sad it is to find out your ram isn't fast enough to run 1:1 with your CPU overclocked. You will notice the difference between your ram FSB at 800 vs. it's ratted 1066. Running dividers can loose performance and for rendering I would venture to guess that 2gb on tight timings @ 1t will run better than loose timings @2t running 4gb. Some people dont mind the dividers and 2t's, they drive me crazy though.

That PSU you have picked it pretty nice, if you can afford it though the HX620 PSU is much more stable and has less 3/5v rail fluctuation (hyper 580 is known to over volt on the 12v rail, which for OCing can work out great in some cases.)

Just out of curiosity what case? Best of luck.


it's a shame that card is AGP, my board has no agp, because that is a good deal.

ill look into the ram and psu situation, ill see what i can do within budget and the already 3 places i am ordering from. shipping is already getting crazy. I would prefer not to outsource again. After reading what you are saying i looked again into the the e4400, with it's 800mhz FSB i could run it 1:1 with my memory (correct?) I do beleive it isnt too hard to O/C those to 3.50, with good temps aswell, especially with watercooling. I doubt i would miss the extra 2mb cache and it will save me £40.

HOWEVER, from the reading i have done there is rumour the latest e4400 max out at 2.6 or 2.8, intel did something, which isnt good. I also read that memory frequency beyond 800mhz currently offers negligable performance increases so i might stick with the e6420

And the case, well that's the surprise i'll save for the pictures, it's very very good though, and fucking expensive.
EverestX
You are correct with the E4400, using 800mhz ram would run 1:1 until you overclock. I have seen some 800mhz ram go way beyond it's rating so it's very well possible that it can/will run at a higher frequency but there is no guarantee. Not to advise using gypsy tactics but you can always stick with your current selection and find out when you get it how fast it will go... then look into a rma etc if necessary. Plus that EPP is pretty neat feature.

As for the e4400 most I have seen recently are doing 3.2-3.5 so that really shouldn't be stretching it much. Under a small water loop you should be golden. I have heard of people getting lower numbers like you mentioned, just look around for a well known stepping it might cost you a couple bucks more due to demand, but thats your best guide to "guessing" where you can OC to.

Just FYI here is a decent OC guide for C2d's Here

I cant wait to see your case.. You show me yours and I'll show you my new WC'd rig smile.gif
grim_d
QUOTE(EverestX @ Sep 19 2007, 02:29 PM) *

I cant wait to see your case.. You show me yours and I'll show you my new WC'd rig smile.gif


It's not custom or anything it's just really nice, well it probably will be custom when i get my hands on it laugh.gif

since you know a little about W/C i have a radiator question.

I was origionally going to go for a 240mm radiator but after reviewing peoples setup EVERYONE seems to have a 360mm radiator. I wanted to keep my system internal but it seems unlikely i could fit a 360mm rad into this case.

What kind of performance differences are we talking between a 240 and a 360.

p.s i will be cooling an overclocked c2d and a overclocked x1950pro
EverestX
For your radiator choice I'd say that a 2x120mm should be able to handle a 1950 pro and a dual core. How cool may be a better question. There are Wattage calculators out there all over the net, that will help you decide.

Since your a lucky SOB and you live across the pond you can more than likely get your hands on a 2x120mm ThermoChill rad for about half of what they cost in the states. The 2x120mm thermochill will hang right up with a 3x120 MCR 320Qp (the radiator I have). And finding a way to do an internal 3x120 without a 4" full tower can be relatively difficult with 2 hard drives a dvd burner and a reservoir [trust me smile.gif]

To completely answer your question since a 2x120 will handle your load pretty well with some yate loons, the difference you will "See" between a 2x120 and a 3x120 will most likely not be much cooler, but your delta between temps at load and idle will be much closer.


Regardless you are pretty much in the clear here, a NCR 2x120 will work good for you, but if you are concerned about future upgrades, then going with a Thermo 2x120 (depending on price) might be a great way to go because you get performance levels of a 3x120, in a 2x120 size. I hope that helps answer your question/
grim_d
QUOTE(EverestX @ Sep 19 2007, 04:39 PM) *

For your radiator choice I'd say that a 2x120mm should be able to handle a 1950 pro and a dual core. How cool may be a better question. There are Wattage calculators out there all over the net, that will help you decide.

Since your a lucky SOB and you live across the pond you can more than likely get your hands on a 2x120mm ThermoChill rad for about half of what they cost in the states. The 2x120mm thermochill will hang right up with a 3x120 MCR 320Qp (the radiator I have). And finding a way to do an internal 3x120 without a 4" full tower can be relatively difficult with 2 hard drives a dvd burner and a reservoir [trust me smile.gif]

To completely answer your question since a 2x120 will handle your load pretty well with some yate loons, the difference you will "See" between a 2x120 and a 3x120 will most likely not be much cooler, but your delta between temps at load and idle will be much closer.
Regardless you are pretty much in the clear here, a NCR 2x120 will work good for you, but if you are concerned about future upgrades, then going with a Thermo 2x120 (depending on price) might be a great way to go because you get performance levels of a 3x120, in a 2x120 size. I hope that helps answer your question/


bah thats an extra 10 quid on top of everything laugh.gif

oh well if they are that good then i guess it will have to be!
grim_d
Got Everything ordered, roll on monday!

as follows

QUOTE


ASUS P5W DH Deluxe SKT 775

Corsair 2GB Kit (2x1GB) DDR2 800MHz/PC2-6400 XMS2 Memory Non-ECC Unbuffered CL4(4-4-4-12) E.P.P. Heat Spreader

Hiper 580W Type-M Black PSU - SLI Certified with APFC

Intel Core 2 Duo E6420 (2.13Ghz) Socket 775 FSB1066 4MB Cache

Seagate 160GB 7200.10 7200RPM SATAII/300 8MB Cache

HIS ATI Radeon X1950 Pro ICEQ 3 V2 TURBO SILENT Heatpipe 512MB GDDR3 TV-Out/Dual DVI (PCI-Express)

MS wireless keyboard and mouse




QUOTE
watercooling as follows

Danger Den TDX Intel 775 Block

Danger Den Tyee Crossfire Prepped

Danger Den Single 5 1/4" Bay Reservoir

Danger Den Fillport (Delrin)

Laing DDC-1T Pro 10watt Pump with Plexi Top

Danger Den 1/2" ClearFlex 60 Tubing (10m)

Thermochill p120.2 radiator with grille mounting plate.



a few other bits and bobs like cables, connectors etc.

TOTAL : £984.16 sad.gif

let the games begin ph34r.gif
throwingks
QUOTE(grim_d @ Sep 16 2007, 07:48 PM) *
i'm setting myself a strict budget of £800
QUOTE(grim_d @ Sep 27 2007, 04:31 PM) *
TOTAL : £984.16 sad.gif
cussing.giflaugh.gif
grim_d
haha well i came into a little more cash this month so why the hell not laugh.gif
EverestX
Well it looks like you got exactly what you needed ... Budget or not smile.gif I'm looking forward to the build! And my god, someone from across the pond uses 1/2"? You better not tell the locals, they might get you for not using aqua computer 1/4"!
grim_d
everything arrived yesterday and nothing was DOA, bonus.

I have the system running with the stock cooler right now until i figure otu the routing for my watercooling.

it looks like i will have to make my radiator external sad.gif
grim_d
Little update.

hmm, how am i going to mount this radiator?

IPB Image

Oh, this comes off, i see.

IPB Image

guess what goes there. ph34r.gif

IPB Image

oh and whoever guesses what case that is gets a cookie LD
EverestX
p182! Nice. Never was much of one for the top bit myself. Shes a gettin there. And someone has a fill DD port...

Edit.

What are you doing with right here?

IPB Image

You going to cover it up or run your fan wires through it?
grim_d
QUOTE(EverestX @ Oct 4 2007, 01:36 AM) *

You going to cover it up or run your fan wires through it?


lol thats where the clip for the "snake light" was to hold it in place, suffice to say it's no longer there laugh.gif

setting up tonight should have some pics up laters.
grim_d
building, 2nd leak testing.

IPB Image

IPB Image

IPB Image

IPB Image
EverestX
Looks like you got it taken care of. What color dye is that you are using?
grim_d
QUOTE(EverestX @ Oct 5 2007, 04:38 PM) *

Looks like you got it taken care of. What color dye is that you are using?


feser one non cuductive fluid in pink.

well the bottle says red but my chick knew it would be pink and insisted i got it.

i wanted purple laugh.gif
EverestX
laugh.gif

Chicks dig the Pink UV smile.gif
grim_d
Got the system up and running so decided to try an overclock, after much reading of guides i went for it and have so far managed to acheive a speed of 3.2Ghz (stock is 2.2)

my settings are as follows

cpu frequency - 400Mhz
DRAM frequency - DDR2-800Mhz
memory voltage - 1.8v
cpu vcore - 1.35v

this is it running 1:1, i wouldnt mind acheiving a higher clock speed, something like 3.5, i've been out the loop for a long time so im a bit of a need so anyone with any helpful tips i'd like to hear them.
EverestX
Since i don't have a C2d I really couldn't help too much with the OC, but if you want to find your max 1:1 clock drop your CPU multi to about half of what it is now then push your FSB until you find your rams max, then turn around and dial your CPU in.

Also, you might go ahead and run some benches now. Then you can try your ram on a divider to push max cpu clock and see what difference it makes on the benches. Also, you have a good deal of voltage you could push to that cpu still so shoot for the stars. What are your current load temps?
grim_d
QUOTE(EverestX @ Oct 6 2007, 09:18 PM) *

Since i don't have a C2d I really couldn't help too much with the OC, but if you want to find your max 1:1 clock drop your CPU multi to about half of what it is now then push your FSB until you find your rams max, then turn around and dial your CPU in.

Also, you might go ahead and run some benches now. Then you can try your ram on a divider to push max cpu clock and see what difference it makes on the benches. Also, you have a good deal of voltage you could push to that cpu still so shoot for the stars. What are your current load temps?


im not sure about the temps man, im not sure i trust what core temp and speedfan tell me, witht he overclock im idleing at around 22 and 24 for core 1 and 2 respectively and at load around 27 and 30 respectively, but again im not sure how accurate this is.

I checked in bios and it reports around 22 also so maybe they aint far off, but thats pretty cold, and my rad fans are on lowest, maybe the watercooling is just amazing laugh.gif

ill try that with te overclocking, need to get aim installed again for a chat mate.
garver
What program are you using to record temp? Download the Intel thermal analysis tool AKA Intel TAT or just TAT...For C2D I believe the max is 75C with that program. It also loads harder than any other tool. I'm running 63 max on air. I believe 65C is considered safe. I think it says that on overclockers.com
grim_d
QUOTE(garver @ Oct 7 2007, 05:17 AM) *

What program are you using to record temp? Download the Intel thermal analysis tool AKA Intel TAT or just TAT...For C2D I believe the max is 75C with that program. It also loads harder than any other tool. I'm running 63 max on air. I believe 65C is considered safe. I think it says that on overclockers.com


i downloaded tat and had around 22 idle and 40 load, only thing is it kept restarting itself when i put load on it, so i've reverted back to defaults for now.

could my vcore be too low and causing it to be unstable?
garver
QUOTE(grim_d @ Oct 7 2007, 06:44 AM) *

i downloaded tat and had around 22 idle and 40 load, only thing is it kept restarting itself when i put load on it, so i've reverted back to defaults for now.

could my vcore be too low and causing it to be unstable?


Ya it could be that I would raise it very slowly. I have a lucky chip that I can overclock it and also be under volted to an extent but now Im a bit above stock. Your temps are good though.
grim_d
QUOTE(garver @ Oct 7 2007, 03:43 PM) *

Ya it could be that I would raise it very slowly. I have a lucky chip that I can overclock it and also be under volted to an extent but now Im a bit above stock. Your temps are good though.


yeah that was it, bumped it up from 3.5 to 3.75 and everything is golden now.

having a little trouble stabilising my GPU overclock but that's just trial and error. i'll get there.

just finished installing all my apps and stuff so just enjoying the new rig. biggrin.gif

garver
QUOTE(grim_d @ Oct 7 2007, 04:39 PM) *

yeah that was it, bumped it up from 3.5 to 3.75 and everything is golden now.

having a little trouble stabilising my GPU overclock but that's just trial and error. i'll get there.

just finished installing all my apps and stuff so just enjoying the new rig. biggrin.gif

What are you using to overclock the GPU
grim_d
QUOTE(garver @ Oct 8 2007, 01:22 AM) *

What are you using to overclock the GPU


rivatuner and atitool, i've got it stable now anyway.
garver
3dmark the beast now.
grim_d
QUOTE(garver @ Oct 8 2007, 09:49 PM) *

3dmark the beast now.


3dmark06

5827, im not sure if that's good or bad.

need to push my cpu further
garver
Thats not too bad for the video card you have. I hit 11k in 06 but I have an 8800gts that is heavily overclocked. what was your cpu score?
grim_d
Just got the UT3 and COD4 demo's and maxed them out at 1280x1024, infact they both ran fine at 1600x1200.

averages around 30 fps in cod4 maced out, didnt check UT3

World in conflict will run maxed out but the FPS drops to about 12 occasionally. By lowering a couple of the non-important options it's smooth

downloading bioshock demo see how i fare with that.
grim_d
QUOTE(grim_d @ Oct 6 2007, 06:42 PM) *

Got the system up and running so decided to try an overclock, after much reading of guides i went for it and have so far managed to acheive a speed of 3.2Ghz (stock is 2.2)

my settings are as follows

cpu frequency - 400Mhz
DRAM frequency - DDR2-800Mhz
memory voltage - 1.8v
cpu vcore - 1.35v


So today i got an extra 2gb of ram (matched to what i have) and a TB hard drive, put it all together and just happened to notice that my clock speed was back to 2.2ghz.

So i reset it to the above but vista resarts just after the loading screen with them, i have bumped up the voltages to around 2.0v for memory and 1.450v on the vcore, but it still does it, is going higher likely to solve the problem?

Currently have it running at 2.8ghz via a standard asus profile.

Any advice? adding extra ram wont have affected anything will it?
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