I've just had a debate with my friend about this matter, so I was eager to take it here as well.
He's an atheist too, or really he doesn't care at all, which is why it's not fun debating him. But one of the things he claimed was that religious people present evidence for the existence of god, do they? I mean they use arguments that it exists, but can they really present any evidence for its existence? If they could present an evidence it'd mean god does exist, right? Atheists don't have any evidence god does not exist, but we use arguments that are as valid as evidence for his non existence.
He was really stubborn on this, so I want to ask if religious people claim there are genuine evidences for god's existence. And then I'd be more than thrilled if you can say what they are.
And remember, an argument is NOT an evidence, but please give arguments as well.
Full Version: God's Existence?
Where did the matter, that made up the contents of the big bang, come from?
if there was definitive evidence either way there wouldnt be any question about it
its all how you perceive the world on a finer level. If you feel we are just a random collection of electrons and matter then that is your opinion. If however you feel that there is a higher power to any degree has influence in your life then that is what you are going to believe.
I personally believe in a higher power for specific events in my life where i did not feel could possibly be random. Although I despise atheists and religious fanatics alike, the key I believe is to always be open to reshape your outlook on life rather then locking into one idea without the possibility of change.
its all how you perceive the world on a finer level. If you feel we are just a random collection of electrons and matter then that is your opinion. If however you feel that there is a higher power to any degree has influence in your life then that is what you are going to believe.
I personally believe in a higher power for specific events in my life where i did not feel could possibly be random. Although I despise atheists and religious fanatics alike, the key I believe is to always be open to reshape your outlook on life rather then locking into one idea without the possibility of change.
QUOTE(throwingks @ Mar 2 2008, 04:05 AM) 
Where did the matter, that made up the contents of the big bang, come from?
I don't know, I don't have a greater knowledge of the big bang. When talking about the issue of singularity I can't say how it works and neither can any scientist, to my knowledge. But big bang itself is questioned in the scientific realm too, so we'll have to see what happens there.
In order to answer your question though, it's not necessary to know what the issue of singularity is, as it wouldn't prove there's a god anyway.
That we don't know what caused the big bang to happen in the first place, does, at least, in no way prove a god created it. If one however do believe there was a god that created that "ignition", you'll be left with an even harder question to answer; what had created the ever so advanced god then?
QUOTE(lostboyz @ Mar 2 2008, 04:07 AM)
if there was definitive evidence either way there wouldnt be any question about it
its all how you perceive the world on a finer level. If you feel we are just a then that is your opinion. If however you feel that there is a higher power to any degree has influence in your life then that is what you are going to believe.
I personally believe in a higher power for specific events in my life where i did not feel could possibly be random. Although I despise atheists and religious fanatics alike, the key I believe is to always be open to reshape your outlook on life rather then locking into one idea without the possibility of change.
That's a great motto, to allow yourself to change. I've changed my mind about virtually everything, but people still call me dogmatic =)
I would however totally disagree with your statement that we're a "random collection of electrons and matter".
There's NOTHING random about the evolution. It's trial and error, in an attempt to adapt to our surroundings. If it was random, how could any animal look the way they do? There's definitely nothing random about evolution.
QUOTE(gronned @ Mar 1 2008, 10:38 PM)
I don't know, I don't have a greater knowledge of the big bang. When talking about the issue of singularity I can't say how it works and neither can any scientist, to my knowledge. But big bang itself is questioned in the scientific realm too, so we'll have to see what happens there.
In order to answer your question though, it's not necessary to know what the issue of singularity is, as it wouldn't prove there's a god anyway.
That we don't know what caused the big bang to happen in the first place, does, at least, in no way prove a god created it. If one however do believe there was a god that created that "ignition", you'll be left with an even harder question to answer; what had created the ever so advanced god then?
In order to answer your question though, it's not necessary to know what the issue of singularity is, as it wouldn't prove there's a god anyway.
That we don't know what caused the big bang to happen in the first place, does, at least, in no way prove a god created it. If one however do believe there was a god that created that "ignition", you'll be left with an even harder question to answer; what had created the ever so advanced god then?
I was simply (ok, complexly) showing that with scientific reasoning, you can only prove things false. You cannot prove things true. Things are believed to be true after all possible methods to falsify have been exhausted. If someone were to make the statement, "Higher Intelligence created the matter that was compacted so tightly it created an explosion spewing that matter all over the universe" it would be impossible to falsify. He/She/They/It may not exist as religious people view their Higher Power to be, but logically you cannot falsify the possibility of an existence.
That does not mean there is and that does not mean there isn't a higher power. Just that logic means nothing to the argument. While you can logically disprove every single religion, that does not mean God does not exist. You know from my earlier posts I am a spiritual person, but I am anti-religion. Truthfully, because of the single though process behind my last post. I have pondered that question for many years (at least 8, because I remember talking about it with a very religious friend I haven't spoken to in 8 years) and I am no closer to the answer than I ever was.
So, what is the real answer? Love and respect yourself and others.
QUOTE(throwingks @ Mar 2 2008, 05:03 AM)
I was simply (ok, complexly) showing that with scientific reasoning, you can only prove things false. You cannot prove things true. Things are believed to be true after all possible methods to falsify have been exhausted. If someone were to make the statement, "Higher Intelligence created the matter that was compacted so tightly it created an explosion spewing that matter all over the universe" it would be impossible to falsify. He/She/They/It may not exist as religious people view their Higher Power to be, but logically you cannot falsify the possibility of an existence.
That does not mean there is and that does not mean there isn't a higher power. Just that logic means nothing to the argument. While you can logically disprove every single religion, that does not mean God does not exist. You know from my earlier posts I am a spiritual person, but I am anti-religion. Truthfully, because of the single though process behind my last post. I have pondered that question for many years (at least 8, because I remember talking about it with a very religious friend I haven't spoken to in 8 years) and I am no closer to the answer than I ever was.
So, what is the real answer? Love and respect yourself and others.
As you say, it's easy to logically disprove all religions, but I would claim it's fairly easy to logically disprove a god as well using rational arguments. Dawkins has very good rational arguments for it's non-existence in "The God delusion", which I recommend everyone to read. Russel's teapot is an interesting argument that's included in the book. It does in no way prove there is no god, but it's a rational argument for it's non-existence.
Whether a deity exists or not, is simply a yes or no-question, but with rational arguments the possibility of a yes as the answer is VERY slim.
Love and respect sounds as a lovely answer to everything, the problem is that religious people many times tend to lack heavily in moral. I saw a quote where 75% of americans are christian, and 10% are atheists. In prison, 75% were christian and 0.2% were atheists. Now I don't know of the validity of that quote, but I tend to believe there's some truth in it.
Anyway, I fear muslims taking over my country with sharia or attacking innocent people because we're infidels, but that they are muslims doesn't mean that christianity would be any better, they've made many atrocities as well, especially in Ireland.
Well here is something to ponder,if humans never existed would religion exist.
QUOTE(gronned @ Mar 1 2008, 11:25 PM)
As you say, it's easy to logically disprove all religions, but I would claim it's fairly easy to logically disprove a god as well using rational arguments. Dawkins has very good rational arguments for it's non-existence in "The God delusion", which I recommend everyone to read. Russel's teapot is an interesting argument that's included in the book. It does in no way prove there is no god, but it's a rational argument for it's non-existence.
Whether a deity exists or not, is simply a yes or no-question, but with rational arguments the possibility of a yes as the answer is VERY slim.
Whether a deity exists or not, is simply a yes or no-question, but with rational arguments the possibility of a yes as the answer is VERY slim.
I see what you are saying about the teapot, but I believe my point is different. There is no logical need to explain a belief in a magical satellite teapot too small to see with our microscopes. However, there is matter throughout the universe moving in direction and speed that would appear to have originated from a singular source. As a logical thinker, I ask "why?" There is no logical thought process as to "there may be a teapot." You cannot prove by example and that is what the Russel is trying to do with his teapot.
QUOTE
Love and respect sounds as a lovely answer to everything, the problem is that religious people many times tend to lack heavily in moral. I saw a quote where 75% of americans are christian, and 10% are atheists. In prison, 75% were christian and 0.2% were atheists. Now I don't know of the validity of that quote, but I tend to believe there's some truth in it.
I have seen a similar quote somewhere in the past also. I am not sure if the numbers are right but I get where you are coming from. My theory is, people need "something to hold onto", and they need to feel protected by being part of a herd. In prison religion easily fills both needs.
QUOTE
Anyway, I fear muslims taking over my country with sharia or attacking innocent people because we're infidels, but that they are muslims doesn't mean that christianity would be any better, they've made many atrocities as well, especially in Ireland.
I don't want you to confuse religion with God. I personally do not believe they are related. They are both separate entities without a need for the other.
QUOTE(Libtoem @ Mar 1 2008, 11:27 PM)
Well here is something to ponder,if humans never existed would religion exist.
Humans are the only creatures with the frontal lobe and capacity to ponder such thoughts. Therefore, religion as we know it would not exist without us, or an equivalently intelligent species. But, that has nothing to do with God.
QUOTE(Libtoem @ Mar 2 2008, 05:27 AM)
Well here is something to ponder,if humans never existed would religion exist.
In a sense that's actually interesting. Because even if the answer to your question obviously is no, it should be fairly interesting anyway, as everyone should realize that all humans may die, and only animals continue to live (theoretically it could happen). Then who would praise the god(s)? Everyone knows animals don't praise any gods right now, and if we die, everything will continue without us, but the animals won't even wonder about gods(until they become as "advanced" as we are, at least). So what will the gods do if nobody cares about them at all?
Throwingks: I have to go to bed, it's 5 in the morning here! I hope I get time to reply tomorrow. Fun having a discussion nonetheless... been a while something happened in this forum =)
QUOTE
A science professor begins his school year with a lecture to the students, "Let me explain the problem science has with religion." The atheist professor of philosophy pauses before his class and then asks one of his new students to stand.
"You're a Christian, aren't you, son?"
"Yes sir," the student says.
"So you believe in God?"
"Absolutely."
"Is God good?"
"Sure! God's good."
"Is God all-powerful? Can God do anything?"
"Yes."
"Are you good or evil?"
"The Bible says I'm evil."
The professor grins knowingly. "Aha! The Bible!" He considers for a moment. "Here's one for you. Let's say there's a sick person over here and you can cure him. You can do it. Would you help him? Would you try?"
"Yes sir, I would."
"So you're good...!"
"I wouldn't say that."
"But why not say that? You'd help a sick and maimed person if you could. Most of us would if we could. But God doesn't."
The student does not answer, so the professor continues. "He doesn't, does he? My brother was a Christian who died of cancer, even though he prayed to Jesus to heal him. How is this Jesus good? Hmmm? Can you answer that one?"
The student remains silent.
"No, you can't, can you?" the professor says. He takes a sip of water from a glass on his desk to give the student time to relax.
"Let's start again, young fella. Is God good?"
"Er...yes," the student says.
"Is Satan good?"
The student doesn't hesitate on this one. "No."
"Then where does Satan come from?"
The student falters. "From God"
"That's right. God made Satan, didn't he? Tell me, son. Is there evil in this world?"
"Yes, sir."
"Evil's everywhere, isn't it? And God did make everything, correct?"
"Yes."
"So who created evil?" The professor continued, "If God created everything, then God created evil, since evil exists, and according to the principle that our works define who we are, then God is evil."
Again, the student has no answer. "Is there sickness? Immorality? Hatred? Ugliness? All these terrible things, do they exist in this world?"
The student squirms on his feet. "Yes."
"So who created them?"
The student does not answer again, so the professor repeats his question. "Who created them?" There is still no answer. Suddenly the lecturer breaks away to pace in front of the classroom. The class is mesmerized. "Tell me," he continues onto another student. "Do you believe in Jesus Christ, son?"
The student's voice betrays him and cracks. "Yes, professor, I do."
The old man stops pacing. "Science says you have five senses you use to identify and observe the world around you. Have you ever seen Jesus?"
"No sir. I've never seen Him."
"Then tell us if you've ever heard your Jesus?"
"No, sir, I have not."
"Have you ever felt your Jesus, tasted your Jesus or smelt your Jesus? Have you ever had any sensory perception of Jesus Christ, or God for that matter?"
"No, sir, I'm afraid I haven't."
"Yet you still believe in him?"
"Yes."
"According to the rules of empirical, testable, demonstrable protocol, science says your God doesn't exist. What do you say to that, son?"
"Nothing," the student replies. "I only have my faith."
"Yes, faith," the professor repeats. "And that is the problem science has with God. There is no evidence, only faith."
The student stands quietly for a moment, before asking a question of His own. "Professor, is there such thing as heat?"
"Yes," the professor replies. "There's heat."
"And is there such a thing as cold?"
"Yes, son, there's cold too."
"No sir, there isn't."
The professor turns to face the student, obviously interested. The room suddenly becomes very quiet. The student begins to explain. "You can have lots of heat, even more heat, super-heat, mega-heat, unlimited heat, white heat, a little heat or no heat, but we don't have anything called 'cold'. We can hit up to 458 degrees below zero, which is no heat, but we can't go any further after that. There is no such thing as cold; otherwise we would be able to go colder than the lowest -458 degrees."
"Every body or object is susceptible to study when it has or transmits energy, and heat is what makes a body or matter have or transmit energy. Absolute zero (-458 F) is the total absence of heat. You see, sir, cold is only a word we use to describe the absence of heat. We cannot measure cold. Heat we can measure in thermal units because heat is energy. Cold is not the opposite of heat, sir, just the absence of it."
Silence across the room. A pen drops somewhere in the classroom, sounding like a hammer.
"What about darkness, professor. Is there such a thing as darkness?"
"Yes," the professor replies without hesitation. "What is night if it isn't darkness?"
"You're wrong again, sir. Darkness is not something; it is the absence of something. You can have low light, normal light, bright light, flashing light, but if you have no light constantly you have nothing and it's called darkness, isn't it? That's the meaning we use to define the word."
"In reality, darkness isn't. If it were, you would be able to make darkness darker, wouldn't you?"
The professor begins to smile at the student in front of him. This will be a good semester. "So what point are you making, young man?"
"Yes, professor. My point is, your philosophical premise is flawed to start with, and so your conclusion must also be flawed."
The professor's face cannot hide his surprise this time. "Flawed? Can you explain how?"
"You are working on the premise of duality," the student explains. "You argue that there is life and then there's death; a good God and a bad God. You are viewing the concept of God as something finite, something we can measure. Sir, science can't even explain a thought."
"It uses electricity and magnetism, but has never seen, much less fully understood either one. To view death as the opposite of life is to be ignorant of the fact that death cannot exist as a substantive thing. Death is not the opposite of life, just the absence of it."
"Now tell me, professor. Do you teach your students that they evolved from a monkey?"
"If you are referring to the natural evolutionary process, young man, yes, of course I do."
"Have you ever observed evolution with your own eyes, sir?"
The professor begins to shake his head, still smiling, as he realizes where the argument is going. A very good semester, indeed.
"Since no one has ever observed the process of evolution at work and cannot even prove that this process is an on-going endeavor, are you not teaching your opinion, sir? Are you now not a scientist, but a preacher?"
The class is in uproar. The student remains silent until the commotion has subsided.
"To continue the point you were making earlier to the other student, let me give you an example of what I mean."
The student looks around the room. "Is there anyone in the class who has ever seen the professor's brain?" The class breaks out into laughter.
"Is there anyone here who has ever heard the professor's brain, felt the professor's brain, touched or smelt the professor's brain? No one appears to have done so. So, according to the established rules of empirical, stable, demonstrable protocol, science says that you have no brain, with all due respect, sir."
"So if science says you have no brain, how can we trust your lectures, sir?"
Now the room is silent. The professor just stares at the student, his face unreadable.
Finally, after what seems an eternity, the old man answers. "I guess you'll have to take them on faith."
"Now, you accept that there is faith, and, in fact, faith exists with life," the student continues. "Now, sir, is there such a thing as evil?"
Now uncertain, the professor responds, "Of course, there is. We see it everyday. It is in the daily example of man's inhumanity to man. It is in the multitude of crime and violence everywhere in the world. These manifestations are nothing else but evil."
To this the student replied, "Evil does not exist sir, or at least it does not exist unto itself. Evil is simply the absence of God. It is just like darkness and cold, a word that man has created to describe the absence of God. God did not create evil. Evil is the result of what happens when man does not have God's love present in his heart. It's like the cold that comes when there is no heat or the darkness that comes when there is no light."
The professor sat down.
"You're a Christian, aren't you, son?"
"Yes sir," the student says.
"So you believe in God?"
"Absolutely."
"Is God good?"
"Sure! God's good."
"Is God all-powerful? Can God do anything?"
"Yes."
"Are you good or evil?"
"The Bible says I'm evil."
The professor grins knowingly. "Aha! The Bible!" He considers for a moment. "Here's one for you. Let's say there's a sick person over here and you can cure him. You can do it. Would you help him? Would you try?"
"Yes sir, I would."
"So you're good...!"
"I wouldn't say that."
"But why not say that? You'd help a sick and maimed person if you could. Most of us would if we could. But God doesn't."
The student does not answer, so the professor continues. "He doesn't, does he? My brother was a Christian who died of cancer, even though he prayed to Jesus to heal him. How is this Jesus good? Hmmm? Can you answer that one?"
The student remains silent.
"No, you can't, can you?" the professor says. He takes a sip of water from a glass on his desk to give the student time to relax.
"Let's start again, young fella. Is God good?"
"Er...yes," the student says.
"Is Satan good?"
The student doesn't hesitate on this one. "No."
"Then where does Satan come from?"
The student falters. "From God"
"That's right. God made Satan, didn't he? Tell me, son. Is there evil in this world?"
"Yes, sir."
"Evil's everywhere, isn't it? And God did make everything, correct?"
"Yes."
"So who created evil?" The professor continued, "If God created everything, then God created evil, since evil exists, and according to the principle that our works define who we are, then God is evil."
Again, the student has no answer. "Is there sickness? Immorality? Hatred? Ugliness? All these terrible things, do they exist in this world?"
The student squirms on his feet. "Yes."
"So who created them?"
The student does not answer again, so the professor repeats his question. "Who created them?" There is still no answer. Suddenly the lecturer breaks away to pace in front of the classroom. The class is mesmerized. "Tell me," he continues onto another student. "Do you believe in Jesus Christ, son?"
The student's voice betrays him and cracks. "Yes, professor, I do."
The old man stops pacing. "Science says you have five senses you use to identify and observe the world around you. Have you ever seen Jesus?"
"No sir. I've never seen Him."
"Then tell us if you've ever heard your Jesus?"
"No, sir, I have not."
"Have you ever felt your Jesus, tasted your Jesus or smelt your Jesus? Have you ever had any sensory perception of Jesus Christ, or God for that matter?"
"No, sir, I'm afraid I haven't."
"Yet you still believe in him?"
"Yes."
"According to the rules of empirical, testable, demonstrable protocol, science says your God doesn't exist. What do you say to that, son?"
"Nothing," the student replies. "I only have my faith."
"Yes, faith," the professor repeats. "And that is the problem science has with God. There is no evidence, only faith."
The student stands quietly for a moment, before asking a question of His own. "Professor, is there such thing as heat?"
"Yes," the professor replies. "There's heat."
"And is there such a thing as cold?"
"Yes, son, there's cold too."
"No sir, there isn't."
The professor turns to face the student, obviously interested. The room suddenly becomes very quiet. The student begins to explain. "You can have lots of heat, even more heat, super-heat, mega-heat, unlimited heat, white heat, a little heat or no heat, but we don't have anything called 'cold'. We can hit up to 458 degrees below zero, which is no heat, but we can't go any further after that. There is no such thing as cold; otherwise we would be able to go colder than the lowest -458 degrees."
"Every body or object is susceptible to study when it has or transmits energy, and heat is what makes a body or matter have or transmit energy. Absolute zero (-458 F) is the total absence of heat. You see, sir, cold is only a word we use to describe the absence of heat. We cannot measure cold. Heat we can measure in thermal units because heat is energy. Cold is not the opposite of heat, sir, just the absence of it."
Silence across the room. A pen drops somewhere in the classroom, sounding like a hammer.
"What about darkness, professor. Is there such a thing as darkness?"
"Yes," the professor replies without hesitation. "What is night if it isn't darkness?"
"You're wrong again, sir. Darkness is not something; it is the absence of something. You can have low light, normal light, bright light, flashing light, but if you have no light constantly you have nothing and it's called darkness, isn't it? That's the meaning we use to define the word."
"In reality, darkness isn't. If it were, you would be able to make darkness darker, wouldn't you?"
The professor begins to smile at the student in front of him. This will be a good semester. "So what point are you making, young man?"
"Yes, professor. My point is, your philosophical premise is flawed to start with, and so your conclusion must also be flawed."
The professor's face cannot hide his surprise this time. "Flawed? Can you explain how?"
"You are working on the premise of duality," the student explains. "You argue that there is life and then there's death; a good God and a bad God. You are viewing the concept of God as something finite, something we can measure. Sir, science can't even explain a thought."
"It uses electricity and magnetism, but has never seen, much less fully understood either one. To view death as the opposite of life is to be ignorant of the fact that death cannot exist as a substantive thing. Death is not the opposite of life, just the absence of it."
"Now tell me, professor. Do you teach your students that they evolved from a monkey?"
"If you are referring to the natural evolutionary process, young man, yes, of course I do."
"Have you ever observed evolution with your own eyes, sir?"
The professor begins to shake his head, still smiling, as he realizes where the argument is going. A very good semester, indeed.
"Since no one has ever observed the process of evolution at work and cannot even prove that this process is an on-going endeavor, are you not teaching your opinion, sir? Are you now not a scientist, but a preacher?"
The class is in uproar. The student remains silent until the commotion has subsided.
"To continue the point you were making earlier to the other student, let me give you an example of what I mean."
The student looks around the room. "Is there anyone in the class who has ever seen the professor's brain?" The class breaks out into laughter.
"Is there anyone here who has ever heard the professor's brain, felt the professor's brain, touched or smelt the professor's brain? No one appears to have done so. So, according to the established rules of empirical, stable, demonstrable protocol, science says that you have no brain, with all due respect, sir."
"So if science says you have no brain, how can we trust your lectures, sir?"
Now the room is silent. The professor just stares at the student, his face unreadable.
Finally, after what seems an eternity, the old man answers. "I guess you'll have to take them on faith."
"Now, you accept that there is faith, and, in fact, faith exists with life," the student continues. "Now, sir, is there such a thing as evil?"
Now uncertain, the professor responds, "Of course, there is. We see it everyday. It is in the daily example of man's inhumanity to man. It is in the multitude of crime and violence everywhere in the world. These manifestations are nothing else but evil."
To this the student replied, "Evil does not exist sir, or at least it does not exist unto itself. Evil is simply the absence of God. It is just like darkness and cold, a word that man has created to describe the absence of God. God did not create evil. Evil is the result of what happens when man does not have God's love present in his heart. It's like the cold that comes when there is no heat or the darkness that comes when there is no light."
The professor sat down.
I believe in God very much.
QUOTE(gronned @ Mar 1 2008, 08:57 PM)
...... Then who would praise the god(s)? Everyone knows animals don't praise any gods right now.....
I do not know this to be true. While humans are reportedly the most adept at reasoning/free thought(non instinctual response), we are definitely not alone in this ability. Our limited knowledge of things that are not like ourselves limits our ability to make such an assumption. Other mammals such as primates, whales, dolphins, and elephants have proven their ability to reason. Interesting that the most intelligent class of animals is the same as our own. Is it that way because their brain function is easiest for us to comprehend? Could a honey bee not praise (its) god in a way that we could never understand? Could it not have completely free thought via a mechanism that we have yet to discover.
God did not create man, man created God. God fills a need to explain that which defies current explanation. Does God exist? He certainly does, for those that need him to, humans and honey bees alike.
I think something to consider when it comes to animals is their inherent ability to form a cohesive unit. A group that cooperates and strives for the greater good. Every animal generally has its role (especially honeybees). If they were to be more advanced than we can currently understand and had free thought (non instinctual response) one would think certain hallmarks would be apparent. Most notably dissent, and conflict amoungst the ranks. I am not saying they all get along all the time but generally speaking nothing breaks apart a group like beliefs about a “god”. I would have to say at this point based on animal behavior they are blissfully unaware of a higher power. Perhaps they are truly advanced after all.
Before I type my thoughts, I'd like to say this is a rather interesting thread and people's views and responses have been rather enlightening.
Hmm. Does God exist? Well, I personally cannot prove, nor disprove. his/her existence, nor do I know of anyone who can.
My life, my influences-
I currently reside in a very Christian town in central(ish) Virginia. And when I say "very Christian," I mean students in my high school carry bibles with them in their bookbags and whip 'em out during class and start reading them. The majority of them attend church on Sundays and also church on Wednesday nights. My school even has a "Fellowship Of Christian Athletes" Club.
To be honest, I was never truly exposed to Christianity during my childhood, and I'm thankful for that. My mom is actually Catholic (from the Philippines) and I was also baptized when I was a baby. But my dad on the other hand, has always considered him an atheist. I went to church a few times when I was a child and I simply recall those occurrences some of the most boring times of my life.
Before I moved down to Virginia, I always saw Christianity as a "thing of the past." Like, something you'd read in history books and say, "Oh... well that's interesting that they thought that way" or poke fun at them for thinking that way, knowing you know better now. But, moving Virginia, I was felt as if I stepped right into the past, often pondering to myself, "Wow, people TRULY think this stuff!"
I've personally considered myself an atheist all my life and down here, I get judged for it. But I mean, that's basically how I was raised. I theorize that Christians would NOT be Christian if they weren't raised the way they were. You know, having preachers and pastors telling them that they'd go to a fiery place called hell where they'll be eternally tortured and what not unless they sign their life away to imaginary person they can't see, hear, touch, feel, or taste... with this all occurring in the most important development stages of one's life, their childhood. If a kid is getting taught this, getting this crap shoved down their throat, since the day they were born, OF COURSE they're gonna believe it. Why wouldn't they? They have no reason to question their parents or people their parents respect. Children are naive and would never think their parents would lie to them.. hell, at such early ages, children probably don't even know what a "lie" is!
Don't get me wrong though, I don't particularly have anything against Christians... I have a lot of friends that are Christian and a (pseudo) girlfriend that is extremely Christian.
About my dad.. I've mentioned that he's always considered himself an atheist, but ever since he's moved down here, he's turned into like.. a radical atheist... which pisses me off. It's okay to think what you want, but he's taken it to a whole new level. I compare his level of radical atheism to that of anyone's (down here) level of Christianity. He's starting to preach crap and argue with people and it's just disgusting. In my opinion, he's being just what he despises! And sure, I probably agree with most he says, but still. Can't personal thoughts stay exactly what they are? Personal?
As you see, I'm pretty much sick of people who preach their crap to everyone and assume they're automatically right. Christians and atheists.. doesn't matter.
Now to address other things-
The Big Bang- I believe it. There's evidence supporting it and there's no evidence -not- supporting it. I get taught it at school.. and I've always felt, why would they teach something at school that isn't true? I mean, sure, we as society, don't know all about it, but does that mean it's not true? Just because we don't know where the matter came from doesn't mean we should automatically attach it some deity or dismiss the theory all together. It's a work-in-progress.
Evolution- I believe it. There's evidence supporting it and there's no evidence -not- supporting it. I get taught it at school.. and I've always felt, why would they teach something at school that isn't true? To me, it just makes PERFECT sense. Geographical situations and various climates have caused species to physically (and mentally I suppose) adapt to their environment to better their chance of survival. Those who did survive, live on to reproduce; those who don't, die. How does that NOT make sense!? I just don't understand.
Morals- I don't know about anyone else, but I feel that others believe I'm immoral just because I don't believe in God/have a religion. Do morals really come from religion? I believe they can.. but it's not a necessity. I believe it's one's own decision what they think is right and wrong. I think that's what makes them who they are; it's what makes them an individual.
Gay Rights- This one pisses me off to the fullest extent. Christians seem to think homosexuality is wrong and that they can stop it, cure it, keep them from getting married, etc. It's prejudice! They're clearly keeping a group of people from doing what all other people are allowed to do. I strongly believe gays and lesbians should be able to marry; if they wanna suffer just like every other married couple, let 'em be!
---Here's an argument I've had with my super Christian (pseudo) girlfriend-
her: "It's wrong"
me: "You realize that's prejudice right?"
her: "No it's not. It's wrong."
me: "Okay, WHY is it wrong?"
her: "Because!"
me: "Because isn't a proper response."
her: ::eventually refers to some story from the bible::
me: "Wow, so God is prejudice!?!"
her: ::silent::
::awkward silence::
Dinosaurs- Don't Christians deny the existence of dinosaurs or something? Or believe the Earth is only like 1000 years old, thus dinosaurs couldn't possibly have existed millions and millions of years ago? I don't know. Perhaps I need a little more insight to this one. But regardless, denying scientific evidence that dates dinosaurs back to millions of years ago just seems idiotic to me. lol
Other random thoughts-
I COMPLETELY agree with that. I personally do not need such an "item." I feel strong-willed enough to rely on myself and believe in myself, no matter what the situation.
-CJLee89 brings up an interesting story with very valid points. However, I feel it's flawed at the "brain" part. The professor's brain's existence can easily be proved. However, I realize that's not particularly the point of the story. Also, I feel the part about the student arguing with the teacher about evolution is flawed. Take for example the physical growth of a human being. Do you ever truly see them growing? Do you see them the next day and say, "Wow! You've grown one third of a millimeter!" I know I don't.. But does that mean people don't grow? Well, it's quite obvious they do, because.. well.. THEY DO. We simply conclude a person has grown by observing their change from a particularly height at one age to a particular height at a different age.. it just takes time to see the difference.. just like in evolution.
-I tend to put my "faith" in math. "Math?" you say. Yes. I believe I can easily relate my beliefs to probability. Example: What is the probability that Creationism is true compared to that of Evolution? In my mind, although I lack sufficient numbers, it is MUCH more likely that evolution got us where we are today. I wouldn't say Creationism is impossible, because I don't believe anything is impossible. Like, walking through a wall. What are the chances of that? Probably 59823475983274x10^5 to 1.. but that's just it.. it's simply improbable. And that's how I feel about Creationism.
Closing statements-
Well, clearly I've rambled on an ass load, so I'll end it here. Clearly, everyone's ideas are flawed and everyone is going to believe what they're going to believe. I feel it's very important to not dismiss all religions and ideas, but rather to take in all you can and better yourself as a human being. I feel those who are close-minded and simply focussed on one idea, religion, deity, etc will never succeed as much as those who open themselves up, whether it be socially, economically, or spiritually.
I'd like to thank those who have taken the time to read my extremely long response and to those who plan on criticizing my points in a very mature, adult-like manner.
Hmm. Does God exist? Well, I personally cannot prove, nor disprove. his/her existence, nor do I know of anyone who can.
My life, my influences-
I currently reside in a very Christian town in central(ish) Virginia. And when I say "very Christian," I mean students in my high school carry bibles with them in their bookbags and whip 'em out during class and start reading them. The majority of them attend church on Sundays and also church on Wednesday nights. My school even has a "Fellowship Of Christian Athletes" Club.
To be honest, I was never truly exposed to Christianity during my childhood, and I'm thankful for that. My mom is actually Catholic (from the Philippines) and I was also baptized when I was a baby. But my dad on the other hand, has always considered him an atheist. I went to church a few times when I was a child and I simply recall those occurrences some of the most boring times of my life.
Before I moved down to Virginia, I always saw Christianity as a "thing of the past." Like, something you'd read in history books and say, "Oh... well that's interesting that they thought that way" or poke fun at them for thinking that way, knowing you know better now. But, moving Virginia, I was felt as if I stepped right into the past, often pondering to myself, "Wow, people TRULY think this stuff!"
I've personally considered myself an atheist all my life and down here, I get judged for it. But I mean, that's basically how I was raised. I theorize that Christians would NOT be Christian if they weren't raised the way they were. You know, having preachers and pastors telling them that they'd go to a fiery place called hell where they'll be eternally tortured and what not unless they sign their life away to imaginary person they can't see, hear, touch, feel, or taste... with this all occurring in the most important development stages of one's life, their childhood. If a kid is getting taught this, getting this crap shoved down their throat, since the day they were born, OF COURSE they're gonna believe it. Why wouldn't they? They have no reason to question their parents or people their parents respect. Children are naive and would never think their parents would lie to them.. hell, at such early ages, children probably don't even know what a "lie" is!
Don't get me wrong though, I don't particularly have anything against Christians... I have a lot of friends that are Christian and a (pseudo) girlfriend that is extremely Christian.
About my dad.. I've mentioned that he's always considered himself an atheist, but ever since he's moved down here, he's turned into like.. a radical atheist... which pisses me off. It's okay to think what you want, but he's taken it to a whole new level. I compare his level of radical atheism to that of anyone's (down here) level of Christianity. He's starting to preach crap and argue with people and it's just disgusting. In my opinion, he's being just what he despises! And sure, I probably agree with most he says, but still. Can't personal thoughts stay exactly what they are? Personal?
As you see, I'm pretty much sick of people who preach their crap to everyone and assume they're automatically right. Christians and atheists.. doesn't matter.
Now to address other things-
The Big Bang- I believe it. There's evidence supporting it and there's no evidence -not- supporting it. I get taught it at school.. and I've always felt, why would they teach something at school that isn't true? I mean, sure, we as society, don't know all about it, but does that mean it's not true? Just because we don't know where the matter came from doesn't mean we should automatically attach it some deity or dismiss the theory all together. It's a work-in-progress.
Evolution- I believe it. There's evidence supporting it and there's no evidence -not- supporting it. I get taught it at school.. and I've always felt, why would they teach something at school that isn't true? To me, it just makes PERFECT sense. Geographical situations and various climates have caused species to physically (and mentally I suppose) adapt to their environment to better their chance of survival. Those who did survive, live on to reproduce; those who don't, die. How does that NOT make sense!? I just don't understand.
Morals- I don't know about anyone else, but I feel that others believe I'm immoral just because I don't believe in God/have a religion. Do morals really come from religion? I believe they can.. but it's not a necessity. I believe it's one's own decision what they think is right and wrong. I think that's what makes them who they are; it's what makes them an individual.
Gay Rights- This one pisses me off to the fullest extent. Christians seem to think homosexuality is wrong and that they can stop it, cure it, keep them from getting married, etc. It's prejudice! They're clearly keeping a group of people from doing what all other people are allowed to do. I strongly believe gays and lesbians should be able to marry; if they wanna suffer just like every other married couple, let 'em be!
---Here's an argument I've had with my super Christian (pseudo) girlfriend-
her: "It's wrong"
me: "You realize that's prejudice right?"
her: "No it's not. It's wrong."
me: "Okay, WHY is it wrong?"
her: "Because!"
me: "Because isn't a proper response."
her: ::eventually refers to some story from the bible::
me: "Wow, so God is prejudice!?!"
her: ::silent::
::awkward silence::
Dinosaurs- Don't Christians deny the existence of dinosaurs or something? Or believe the Earth is only like 1000 years old, thus dinosaurs couldn't possibly have existed millions and millions of years ago? I don't know. Perhaps I need a little more insight to this one. But regardless, denying scientific evidence that dates dinosaurs back to millions of years ago just seems idiotic to me. lol
Other random thoughts-
QUOTE
God did not create man, man created God. God fills a need to explain that which defies current explanation. Does God exist? He certainly does, for those that need him to, humans and honey bees alike.
I COMPLETELY agree with that. I personally do not need such an "item." I feel strong-willed enough to rely on myself and believe in myself, no matter what the situation.
-CJLee89 brings up an interesting story with very valid points. However, I feel it's flawed at the "brain" part. The professor's brain's existence can easily be proved. However, I realize that's not particularly the point of the story. Also, I feel the part about the student arguing with the teacher about evolution is flawed. Take for example the physical growth of a human being. Do you ever truly see them growing? Do you see them the next day and say, "Wow! You've grown one third of a millimeter!" I know I don't.. But does that mean people don't grow? Well, it's quite obvious they do, because.. well.. THEY DO. We simply conclude a person has grown by observing their change from a particularly height at one age to a particular height at a different age.. it just takes time to see the difference.. just like in evolution.
-I tend to put my "faith" in math. "Math?" you say. Yes. I believe I can easily relate my beliefs to probability. Example: What is the probability that Creationism is true compared to that of Evolution? In my mind, although I lack sufficient numbers, it is MUCH more likely that evolution got us where we are today. I wouldn't say Creationism is impossible, because I don't believe anything is impossible. Like, walking through a wall. What are the chances of that? Probably 59823475983274x10^5 to 1.. but that's just it.. it's simply improbable. And that's how I feel about Creationism.
Closing statements-
Well, clearly I've rambled on an ass load, so I'll end it here. Clearly, everyone's ideas are flawed and everyone is going to believe what they're going to believe. I feel it's very important to not dismiss all religions and ideas, but rather to take in all you can and better yourself as a human being. I feel those who are close-minded and simply focussed on one idea, religion, deity, etc will never succeed as much as those who open themselves up, whether it be socially, economically, or spiritually.
I'd like to thank those who have taken the time to read my extremely long response and to those who plan on criticizing my points in a very mature, adult-like manner.
^ very well put.
pretty much what i was thinking.
pretty much what i was thinking.
I believe in my self and my actions. I am no puppet.
good post sicknasty
I have plenty of these conversations with my religious friend. I respect him because he grew up in a very poor situation and chose to be religious, it makes him happy and he returns it by teaching youth groups. The conversations are great because its basically bouncing opinions and viewpoints off of each other rather then trying to win an argument. It basically just proves how personal the whole belief system is. It truly does not matter what you believe in as long as it helps you live your life in a morally sane way.
I had the question to my mother of why she was catholic, whether or not it is because she was brought up that way, this was probably about when I was in 5th grade. Since then I have been analyzing my life to explain my own existence. I still go to church out of respect of my mother (when I am home) but I am not catholic even though coming from a strict catholic family and going to a catholic school from 1st to 8th grade.
There is absolutely no way you are going to prove if god does or doesn't exist, and truly it does not matter. You should never live your life based on anothers faith. In most cases differences in faith should have nothing to do with how two people interact if both practice what they believe. Other then scientology I believe all major faith based systems have a structure to promote moral teachings and strong communities, although get twisted and political on certain topics. I am a firm believer of separation of church and state.
I have plenty of these conversations with my religious friend. I respect him because he grew up in a very poor situation and chose to be religious, it makes him happy and he returns it by teaching youth groups. The conversations are great because its basically bouncing opinions and viewpoints off of each other rather then trying to win an argument. It basically just proves how personal the whole belief system is. It truly does not matter what you believe in as long as it helps you live your life in a morally sane way.
I had the question to my mother of why she was catholic, whether or not it is because she was brought up that way, this was probably about when I was in 5th grade. Since then I have been analyzing my life to explain my own existence. I still go to church out of respect of my mother (when I am home) but I am not catholic even though coming from a strict catholic family and going to a catholic school from 1st to 8th grade.
There is absolutely no way you are going to prove if god does or doesn't exist, and truly it does not matter. You should never live your life based on anothers faith. In most cases differences in faith should have nothing to do with how two people interact if both practice what they believe. Other then scientology I believe all major faith based systems have a structure to promote moral teachings and strong communities, although get twisted and political on certain topics. I am a firm believer of separation of church and state.
I agree with lostboyz, and while I won't say debating whether or not god exists is a waste of time (I think it is a rather entertaining hobby) what does it matter really? If you found out tomorrow that there is or is not a god would it change the way you live? Why do you do the things that you do, what are your principles grounded in? If I didnt agree with a god that was presented to me, even with concrete evidence, I wouldn't change, blessing of free will. Heaven with him/her would be like hell anyways.
sicknasty, didnt want to say this in my first post, but i must now. your dad should keep voicing his opinions. its is a good thing. a war has 2 fronts. when some one is knocking down your front door, invading your rights you cant agree to disagree. you must attack and defend, or the opposittion will soon rule you. you must belive in your own freedoms, and do what you can to keep them. Props to your Pops. The bystander will be forgotten.
as much as I hate preachers, if your beliefs (or lack there of) are strong, nothing should change you. I do not understand the hate to those that try to convert, they are people just like everyone else.
like I said earlier your faith should not draw a line in the sand on people that you interact with.
like I said earlier your faith should not draw a line in the sand on people that you interact with.
The bible is probably the most abused text out there. In the 1700-1800's white men used the bible to interpret that slavery was just and black people will go to heaven if they obey. And somewhere in the bible says that women have to obey men. It has a bunch of mumbo jumbo written in Latin and these philosophers interpret these cryptic texts in their own way.
QUOTE(sicknasty413 @ Mar 2 2008, 12:56 PM)
Now to address other things-
The Big Bang- I believe it. There's evidence supporting it and there's no evidence -not- supporting it. I get taught it at school.. and I've always felt, why would they teach something at school that isn't true? I mean, sure, we as society, don't know all about it, but does that mean it's not true? Just because we don't know where the matter came from doesn't mean we should automatically attach it some deity or dismiss the theory all together. It's a work-in-progress.
There are things about the big bang that dont make sense using math as we know it. For example, the outermost stars seem to be accelerating.The Big Bang- I believe it. There's evidence supporting it and there's no evidence -not- supporting it. I get taught it at school.. and I've always felt, why would they teach something at school that isn't true? I mean, sure, we as society, don't know all about it, but does that mean it's not true? Just because we don't know where the matter came from doesn't mean we should automatically attach it some deity or dismiss the theory all together. It's a work-in-progress.
QUOTE
Evolution- I believe it. There's evidence supporting it and there's no evidence -not- supporting it. I get taught it at school.. and I've always felt, why would they teach something at school that isn't true? To me, it just makes PERFECT sense. Geographical situations and various climates have caused species to physically (and mentally I suppose) adapt to their environment to better their chance of survival. Those who did survive, live on to reproduce; those who don't, die. How does that NOT make sense!? I just don't understand.
There is evidence that not enough time has passed for humans to evolve from primordial ooze. There are also missing links in the chain from ooze to humans. Maybe aliens merged their DNA with Neanderthals? Look into Raelism. They say that Gods from the Heavens is literal.QUOTE
Morals- I don't know about anyone else, but I feel that others believe I'm immoral just because I don't believe in God/have a religion. Do morals really come from religion? I believe they can.. but it's not a necessity. I believe it's one's own decision what they think is right and wrong. I think that's what makes them who they are; it's what makes them an individual.
I agree with you. Morals can come from religion, but more times than not, morals come from the people that raise you. Parents, coaches, teachers, etc.
QUOTE
Gay Rights- This one pisses me off to the fullest extent. Christians seem to think homosexuality is wrong and that they can stop it, cure it, keep them from getting married, etc. It's prejudice! They're clearly keeping a group of people from doing what all other people are allowed to do. I strongly believe gays and lesbians should be able to marry; if they wanna suffer just like every other married couple, let 'em be!
It is disappointing to me that you believe married people suffer. Studies have shown the opposite. Even if a marriage ends in divorce, usually there were many happier times that preceded that. I also believe a marriage does not need to be recognized by the church to be a marriage. I have been with my wife 12 years now, but only married for 3. If situations were different, we would have been married sooner. I have also seen couple together for way many more years than that, that never got "married". Gays, heteros, whoever should be able to marry whomever they want, or be partnered with whomever they want.
QUOTE
---Here's an argument I've had with my super Christian (pseudo) girlfriend-
her: "It's wrong"
me: "You realize that's prejudice right?"
her: "No it's not. It's wrong."
me: "Okay, WHY is it wrong?"
her: "Because!"
me: "Because isn't a proper response."
her: ::eventually refers to some story from the bible::
me: "Wow, so God is prejudice!?!"
her: ::silent::
::awkward silence::
QUOTE
Dinosaurs- Don't Christians deny the existence of dinosaurs or something? Or believe the Earth is only like 1000 years old, thus dinosaurs couldn't possibly have existed millions and millions of years ago? I don't know. Perhaps I need a little more insight to this one. But regardless, denying scientific evidence that dates dinosaurs back to millions of years ago just seems idiotic to me. lol
no ideaQUOTE
-I tend to put my "faith" in math. "Math?" you say. Yes. I believe I can easily relate my beliefs to probability. Example: What is the probability that Creationism is true compared to that of Evolution? In my mind, although I lack sufficient numbers, it is MUCH more likely that evolution got us where we are today. I wouldn't say Creationism is impossible, because I don't believe anything is impossible. Like, walking through a wall. What are the chances of that? Probably 59823475983274x10^5 to 1.. but that's just it.. it's simply improbable. And that's how I feel about Creationism.
You would like a book I have called "The Laws of Thought" by George Boole.http://www.amazon.com/Investigation-Laws-T...e/dp/0486600289
PM me if you want it.
QUOTE
I'd like to thank those who have taken the time to read my extremely long response and to those who plan on criticizing my points in a very mature, adult-like manner.
Edit: I made 2 posts so that the quotes didnt break because of the quantity.
QUOTE(throwingks @ Mar 3 2008, 01:25 PM)
There are things about the big bang that dont make sense using math as we know it. For example, the outermost stars seem to be accelerating.
... SEEM? Does that mean they're not sure if they are or not? And I'm not a big science major, so what does the acceleration of the outer stars conclude? Should they be decelerating? I guess that would kinda make sense. The initial explosion (the big bang itself) would be the point at which all matter is accelerating and at its highest velocity, and at some point, should start to decelerate, like after it reaches its terminal velocity. But do such things as terminal velocity occur in space? What would cause such matter to decelerate? Shouldn't matter just keep on accelerating if they abide by Newton's laws? Well, perhaps it -should- keep a constant velocity, and not necessarily a constant acceleration. Idk! I'm just rambling now. lol
QUOTE
There is evidence that not enough time has passed for humans to evolve from primordial ooze. There are also missing links in the chain from ooze to humans. Maybe aliens merged their DNA with Neanderthals? Look into Raelism. They say that Gods from the Heavens is literal.
Again, no scientist, so Idk. And aliens? I suppose it's possible. lol.
QUOTE
It is disappointing to me that you believe married people suffer. Studies have shown the opposite. Even if a marriage ends in divorce, usually there were many happier times that preceded that. I also believe a marriage does not need to be recognized by the church to be a marriage. I have been with my wife 12 years now, but only married for 3. If situations were different, we would have been married sooner. I have also seen couple together for way many more years than that, that never got "married". Gays, heteros, whoever should be able to marry whomever they want, or be partnered with whomever they want.
I was just kidding about married people suffering. It was actually in reference to a joke done by a comedian. I personally cannot wait to get married. I think it's going to be awesome... you know.. besides the whole "no sex with other people thing." Yeah.. that'll put a drag on things. lol
QUOTE(throwingks @ Mar 3 2008, 01:26 PM)
Hopefully, you can continue to educate each other and grow together.
.. she's so stubborn. lol
QUOTE
You would like a book I have called "The Laws of Thought" by George Boole.
http://www.amazon.com/Investigation-Laws-T...e/dp/0486600289
PM me if you want it.
http://www.amazon.com/Investigation-Laws-T...e/dp/0486600289
PM me if you want it.
Hmm.. very rarely do I read, but perhaps I'll take a gander. lol
I don't beleive in anything specific, but I am baptized and did go to a private (christian) school for 7 years... ehh
I don't see how anyone can be atheist TBH, because sure, maybe we did come from monkeys and sure, maybe our planets and existence all exploded from a set amount of gases... but where did that all come from? Where did outer space come from? It all has to have some sort of start, so I just think that it's too obvious that we can't create ourselves here, nor can hydrogen create mercury, like gold can't creat, silver, etc etc (JUST examples before someone flips shit about it).
IDK what or who made our planets and our existence, but I would have to say that it didn't just "appear" out of no where to explode, then make single celled organisms, all the way up to humans. However we came about, it definitely had some sort of help from a god of some sort, thats my belief. What happens when we die still confuses the hell outta me and Ill figure that out when I die I guess.
Summed up, is there a god? In my personal opinion, Yes. I don't see how anyone can deny that. Who or what is god? Who knows, but at some point in our lives (or afterlife) we shall find out. That is what I personally believe in.
All in all, who cares? Why not live your life not having to fear what's beyond this world or how we got here or where we will go, or who we must obey to get into heaven or whatever you believe in. Ignorance is bliss
Let me also say, that I myself, nor anyone (except maybe god himself) can prove that he exists or doesn't. However, I think that common sense would tell you that some kind of invisible existence beyond our universe would exist.
I don't see how anyone can be atheist TBH, because sure, maybe we did come from monkeys and sure, maybe our planets and existence all exploded from a set amount of gases... but where did that all come from? Where did outer space come from? It all has to have some sort of start, so I just think that it's too obvious that we can't create ourselves here, nor can hydrogen create mercury, like gold can't creat, silver, etc etc (JUST examples before someone flips shit about it).
IDK what or who made our planets and our existence, but I would have to say that it didn't just "appear" out of no where to explode, then make single celled organisms, all the way up to humans. However we came about, it definitely had some sort of help from a god of some sort, thats my belief. What happens when we die still confuses the hell outta me and Ill figure that out when I die I guess.
Summed up, is there a god? In my personal opinion, Yes. I don't see how anyone can deny that. Who or what is god? Who knows, but at some point in our lives (or afterlife) we shall find out. That is what I personally believe in.
All in all, who cares? Why not live your life not having to fear what's beyond this world or how we got here or where we will go, or who we must obey to get into heaven or whatever you believe in. Ignorance is bliss
Let me also say, that I myself, nor anyone (except maybe god himself) can prove that he exists or doesn't. However, I think that common sense would tell you that some kind of invisible existence beyond our universe would exist.
kinda of a wierd post about me, just because infinty is a confusing number to you ( no offense, i get sick when i think about it! lol) dont tell me there is a good. not everything has to have a starting point. its sickening to thing about, but everything could have always been here in some form. i support the notion that the universe is a breathing entity. expanding, then rebounding and contring to a supper massive small dot, the explodling a gain. and there could be infinity universes out there. its so much more comfortable to say a god created some starting point. but who created that god then? if god always was and always will be according to the bible, why cant the universe be always and forever be here. the universe is a violent and crazy place, kinda like... well earth.
Either way I am stoked for the apocalypse
QUOTE(lostboyz @ Mar 3 2008, 04:14 PM)
Either way I am stoked for the apocalypse
Hellz ya....bring it...
@gatorayde- If you're referring to what created "matter" as a "God", then I suppose there IS one. But would I "consider" it a "God" myself? Not particularly, nor would I worship it like any type of religion. But what created matter could easily be.. say.. anti-matter! Now if that was possible in anyway, would "anti-matter" be a "God?" Technically, I suppose. But it doesn't seem like a Christian's ideal "God", one who leads, saves, performs miracles, etc.
@hamwbone- You bring up a good point. Infinity is quite the interesting number. But say you drew a line around a cylinder.. a straight line.. with its end connected to its beginning.. creating basically a stripe. Assuming that there's no obvious point of start and end, would it be safe to say that the line infinitely continues? Simply going round and round in a circle? Not knowing where it started, nor where it ended? Well, the fact is, that line HAD to start somewhere, I know because I drew it (or had you drew it. lol). Although NOW it's infinitely circling that cylinder, there was a point at which is had to begin. Just because the universe may now infinitely be repeating itself, it's pretty safe to say it had to start somewhere.
...But, who am I to say? I simply a loser teenager with nothing better to do in his life but criticize.. everything. lol
@lostboyz and StrictPuppet- hahahaha.. yeah.. that'll be fun. lol
@hamwbone- You bring up a good point. Infinity is quite the interesting number. But say you drew a line around a cylinder.. a straight line.. with its end connected to its beginning.. creating basically a stripe. Assuming that there's no obvious point of start and end, would it be safe to say that the line infinitely continues? Simply going round and round in a circle? Not knowing where it started, nor where it ended? Well, the fact is, that line HAD to start somewhere, I know because I drew it (or had you drew it. lol). Although NOW it's infinitely circling that cylinder, there was a point at which is had to begin. Just because the universe may now infinitely be repeating itself, it's pretty safe to say it had to start somewhere.
...But, who am I to say? I simply a loser teenager with nothing better to do in his life but criticize.. everything. lol
@lostboyz and StrictPuppet- hahahaha.. yeah.. that'll be fun. lol
in this argument i'll assume the role of a scientist if i may
Big Bang- like most people say that there is a lot of evidence to support it... where did the energy come from to start it all.. questionable.. i don't really want to go into it because it involves too many open ends.. NOW...
the outer planets are accelerating because gravity is proportional to 1/R where R is the center of mass... so the further you get away from your source, the less you're gonna be feeling the gravity.. as far as acceleration goes, there are 2 possible explanations that i can put out off the top of my head.. one (more likely) it's merely centrific acceleration which pretty much spins the universe outwards. we know that the universe is rotating.. so that's a reasonable assumption.
and the second again, lack of gravity as you move away, but they're not necessarily accelerating but more reducing the rate of their deceleration... (2nd derivative of speed positive)
hydrogen in fact CAN create mercury and amazingly enough gold can create silver and vice versa it just requires a bunch of work to get the reaction started but it is possible... in fact if you look at a dying star.. you get just that
EVOLUTION
as far as evolution goes, i don't think anyone can rightfully doubt the theory of evolution... whether it happened on earth or it came by meteor or any other random processes that resulted in life again it doesn't matter.. if you want proof of evolution you don't have to go far.. just look in the mirror and tell me are you the same as your parents? are you exactly the same or a collection of random mutations.. sometimes those mutations are just more severe than others...
furthermore.. there are what... 5billion people on the planet right now? we're really a minority.. the lower down the food chain you go, the higher the numbers are of that particular species.. so there's more opportunity for those mutations to occur simply because there is more to pick from.
as far as the story goes about that kid and the "science" teacher.. oh man.. so many logical fallacies...
first of all.. a teacher would never put a student on the stand like that and no student would realistically talk to a teacher like that.. if you set that aside, i can pick flaws in their individual banter but that would take too long. instead let's go to the very end where the kid says that evil is the absence of god... that right there counters his point in a big way.. god by definition is omnipresent so in a way the kid made the worst statement he possibly could have.
people keep mentioning morals.. if anything, morals started religions... look at fables that tell a story with some kind of very important message... blah blah blah.. moral of the story.. don't kill... be good to your friends and neighbors... some other very important message... then let's put all these fables together and give the big book a name. sound familiar? if not let me ask you guys.. who wrote the bible? was it god? if it was, then why would we even have this argument... no it was people, and people tend to embellish stories to make them more effective. Moral of the story, morals exist outside of religion.. they are defined by society, or if you wanna bring philosophers into it, the social contract (hobbes or locke i dont' remember)
now.. religion on homosexuality... "and his spunk hit the floor and his sin was great" that is about as much as religion says about the evils of homosexuality... and as much as that is open to interpretation, the interpretation that is most used is that any sperm ejected that's not looking to produce a baby is sinful.. thus instilling that male homosexuality is wrong, male masturbation is wrong, and wet dreams are wrong.. which brings me to my next question why do we not allow women to marry? perhaps because of equal rights? not sure
i'm sure there are lots of things left out.. but i feel like i've made a contribution... always welcome any criticism (constructive or otherwise)
Big Bang- like most people say that there is a lot of evidence to support it... where did the energy come from to start it all.. questionable.. i don't really want to go into it because it involves too many open ends.. NOW...
the outer planets are accelerating because gravity is proportional to 1/R where R is the center of mass... so the further you get away from your source, the less you're gonna be feeling the gravity.. as far as acceleration goes, there are 2 possible explanations that i can put out off the top of my head.. one (more likely) it's merely centrific acceleration which pretty much spins the universe outwards. we know that the universe is rotating.. so that's a reasonable assumption.
and the second again, lack of gravity as you move away, but they're not necessarily accelerating but more reducing the rate of their deceleration... (2nd derivative of speed positive)
QUOTE
I just think that it's too obvious that we can't create ourselves here, nor can hydrogen create mercury, like gold can't creat, silver, etc etc
hydrogen in fact CAN create mercury and amazingly enough gold can create silver and vice versa it just requires a bunch of work to get the reaction started but it is possible... in fact if you look at a dying star.. you get just that
EVOLUTION
as far as evolution goes, i don't think anyone can rightfully doubt the theory of evolution... whether it happened on earth or it came by meteor or any other random processes that resulted in life again it doesn't matter.. if you want proof of evolution you don't have to go far.. just look in the mirror and tell me are you the same as your parents? are you exactly the same or a collection of random mutations.. sometimes those mutations are just more severe than others...
furthermore.. there are what... 5billion people on the planet right now? we're really a minority.. the lower down the food chain you go, the higher the numbers are of that particular species.. so there's more opportunity for those mutations to occur simply because there is more to pick from.
as far as the story goes about that kid and the "science" teacher.. oh man.. so many logical fallacies...
first of all.. a teacher would never put a student on the stand like that and no student would realistically talk to a teacher like that.. if you set that aside, i can pick flaws in their individual banter but that would take too long. instead let's go to the very end where the kid says that evil is the absence of god... that right there counters his point in a big way.. god by definition is omnipresent so in a way the kid made the worst statement he possibly could have.
people keep mentioning morals.. if anything, morals started religions... look at fables that tell a story with some kind of very important message... blah blah blah.. moral of the story.. don't kill... be good to your friends and neighbors... some other very important message... then let's put all these fables together and give the big book a name. sound familiar? if not let me ask you guys.. who wrote the bible? was it god? if it was, then why would we even have this argument... no it was people, and people tend to embellish stories to make them more effective. Moral of the story, morals exist outside of religion.. they are defined by society, or if you wanna bring philosophers into it, the social contract (hobbes or locke i dont' remember)
now.. religion on homosexuality... "and his spunk hit the floor and his sin was great" that is about as much as religion says about the evils of homosexuality... and as much as that is open to interpretation, the interpretation that is most used is that any sperm ejected that's not looking to produce a baby is sinful.. thus instilling that male homosexuality is wrong, male masturbation is wrong, and wet dreams are wrong.. which brings me to my next question why do we not allow women to marry? perhaps because of equal rights? not sure
i'm sure there are lots of things left out.. but i feel like i've made a contribution... always welcome any criticism (constructive or otherwise)
lemme rephrase in a nutshell what I said.... I beleive something, whether it be a god, a flying dragon or a sea otter, had to create whatever we are currently living in (ie: a breathing universe like hambone stated). IDK what you'd call that sort of a "creator", but Id say its pretty damn close to a god (not limited to jesus, God, allah, etc etc etc).
@hambone
how so? Did adam and eve (just an example people!) pop up, on an also spontaneously created Earth? Last time I checked my head I don't recall anything spontaneously creating itself
TBH, I spent quite a few hours reading up on "the god of god" subject and Im still baffled. I don't see how god, also, just sprouted up out of the clouds and said "heyyy lets makes some peoples n planets n stuff" but then again if god is real, he is a god and all
@crackfeen
So gold can create silver (thinking back to chem...), but where did the gold come from in the first place? Hydrogen, mercury, etc etc?
The plain ol' fact of religion is that there is no evidence to support or disprove whatever the hell we read in a 2000 year old book. We all find a blind faith religion (other than atheism or a handful of others), stick with it, live by the rules, and hope we all go to a better place which is why the religion pissing match will never be won
@hambone
how so? Did adam and eve (just an example people!) pop up, on an also spontaneously created Earth? Last time I checked my head I don't recall anything spontaneously creating itself
TBH, I spent quite a few hours reading up on "the god of god" subject and Im still baffled. I don't see how god, also, just sprouted up out of the clouds and said "heyyy lets makes some peoples n planets n stuff" but then again if god is real, he is a god and all
@crackfeen
So gold can create silver (thinking back to chem...), but where did the gold come from in the first place? Hydrogen, mercury, etc etc?
The plain ol' fact of religion is that there is no evidence to support or disprove whatever the hell we read in a 2000 year old book. We all find a blind faith religion (other than atheism or a handful of others), stick with it, live by the rules, and hope we all go to a better place which is why the religion pissing match will never be won
QUOTE(gatorayde @ Mar 3 2008, 09:11 PM)
lemme rephrase in a nutshell what I said.... I beleive something, whether it be a god, a flying dragon or a sea otter, had to create whatever we are currently living in (ie: a breathing universe like hambone stated). IDK what you'd call that sort of a "creator", but Id say its pretty damn close to a god (not limited to jesus, God, allah, etc etc etc).
@crackfeen
So gold can create silver (thinking back to chem...), but where did the gold come from in the first place? Hydrogen, mercury, etc etc?
The plain ol' fact of religion is that there is no evidence to support or disprove whatever the hell we read in a 2000 year old book. We all find a blind faith religion (other than atheism or a handful of others), stick with it, live by the rules, and hope we all go to a better place which is why the religion pissing match will never be won
don't think back to chemistry (it's wrong anyways).. think back to nuclear physics it takes you to the next step of nuclear interractions. i'm sure you know einstein, and his famous e=mc^2 that equation is the basic explanation to what you're asking.. energy/matter transformation
i have a question... why does everything need a creator? be it flying sea otter or a regular nonflying sea otter... why can't things just be? someone mentioned who created outer space.... honestly what kind of question is that.. outer space is a whole lot of nothing.... so.. who created nothing? was it god? or perhaps it could have always been there
sicknasty brought up a good point with the line on a cylinder (incidentally i used the same reasoning in 6th grade to convince my math teacher that one could easily draw an infinite line where he said it was impossible) one of the most popular explanations of the big bang is that the universe keeps exploding and then being sucked into a singularity just to explode again. is it really so hard to believe that in the beggining, there was a buncha garbage randomly in space one day it got together, exploded, then got together again and exploded again... why can't we just say that it always has been
i think the concept of god has been created for a similar reason as when the greeks tried to explain the phenomenon of lightning... the concept comes from the lack of understanding of the world around us. and personally i think we will always have this argument because some questions simply can't be answered. like life after death.. once you die, you can't come back and tell everyone about it... thus to make your life seem less pointless, you will be rewarded when you die.. if you done did god proud you done go to heaven otherwise to the barbeque.
QUOTE(gatorayde @ Mar 3 2008, 09:11 PM)
So gold can create silver (thinking back to chem...), but where did the gold come from in the first place? Hydrogen, mercury, etc etc?
I was just talking to SickNasty about this on IM.
I believe light started everything. But, I don't know where the light came from. A giant cosmic shart.
From light you can create matter and vice versa. The easiest element to make is hydrogen. When a bunch of Hydrogen clumps up and starts building some mass, gravity takes over and bunches them tightly enough to create heat, igniting a star. The star gets so hot, fusion occurs. Fusion can create every element up the periodic table up to iron. Stars cannot get big enough to create a higher element. External forces are needed. Heat, pressure, friction, etc. So planets had to come next, that is where further elements came from.
Now, all of this is from an old broken memory. But, you get the idea.
Also, @crackfeen, the universe is spinning? Where did you get that idea? It is spinning in relation to what?
why does there have to be a start? humans think so only because there was a start to them: in individual and ancestral terms...
QUOTE(gcskate27 @ Mar 3 2008, 09:14 PM)
why does there have to be a start?
Probably because I can't think of one thing that doesn't have a beginning/creator/start. If you do, please enlighten me
And sure, had someone or something created just a single (maybe two now that I think about it...) hydrogen atom, our entire universe could most likely exist as it is now.
On a way side note, anyone know a 5v source in a ps3
(honestly, I can't find one anywhere...)
QUOTE(hamwbone @ Mar 3 2008, 07:12 PM)
its so much more comfortable to say a god created some starting point. but who created that god then? if god always was and always will be according to the bible, why cant the universe be always and forever be here.
That is a question that I have been wondering for a couple months now. After some deep thinking and some research I've came up with this idea of who created God:
Nothing/NoOne created God.
You see. If God created everything, then wouldn't he of had to create 'creation'. So there for, nothing created God, since he created creation in the first place.
Also, If God created everything, he would of had to created 'time' right? So there for, there was no time before which God created time. So there was no time before He created time.
Also, we think of God as a physical creature/matter. Which in fact, God could be something totally different, he could be something that we can't even comprehend cause there's nothing like it in OUR universe.
Also, check out this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sfp5--zfBRA
QUOTE(Albut35 @ Mar 3 2008, 11:54 PM)
That is a question that I have been wondering for a couple months now. After some deep thinking and some research I've came up with this idea of who created God:
Nothing/NoOne created God.
You see. If God created everything, then wouldn't he of had to create 'creation'. So there for, nothing created God, since he created creation in the first place.
That's quite the big "If" there buddy. In order to even comply with your theory, you'd have to believe in such a being in the first place.
QUOTE(Albut35 @ Mar 3 2008, 11:54 PM)
Also, If God created everything, he would of had to created 'time' right? So there for, there was no time before which God created time. So there was no time before He created time.
There's really no such thing as "time." Time is completely relevant and inconsistent. Ever hear of Einstein's Theory Of Relativity (more in reference to General Relativity). You know, like.. time slows down as one approaches the speed of light? etc. etc. "Time" is simply a measurement from one occurrence to the next; the duration that exists between said occurrences.
QUOTE(Albut35 @ Mar 3 2008, 11:54 PM)
Also, we think of God as a physical creature/matter. Which in fact, God could be something totally different, he could be something that we can't even comprehend cause there's nothing like it in OUR universe.
Well.. now you're just mixing a bunch of different ideas. So now there are multiple universes? So you're complying with the "mutliverse" theory? The only fault in thinking that is that.. well.. refer to this excerpt-
QUOTE
By definition, there is no possible way for anything in one universe to affect another; if two "universes" could affect one another, they would be part of a single universe. Thus, although some fictional characters travel between parallel fictional "universes", this is, strictly speaking, an incorrect usage of the term "universe". The disconnected universes are conceived as being physical, in the sense that each should have its own space and time, its own matter and energy, and its own physical laws.
QUOTE(Albut35 @ Mar 3 2008, 11:54 PM)
Also, check out this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sfp5--zfBRA
I'm sorry. But that guy explained absolutely nothing. He made a claim, in reference to a religious book, saying that "God" is eternal. First off, there's no proof that such a being (or thing) even exists, and if said being (or thing) exists, there's still no proof that "it" is eternal. And his reference to the Law of Causation is pretty obvious. "Anything that has a beginning has a cause.. since God is eternal, it has no beginning, thus no cause, thus no one/thing/etc created God" etc etc. Whatever he said. lol. Take for example the number representation of "Pi".. it's infinitely expanding, yes? Does that not make it eternal then? But wait.. it has a starting point doesn't it? Isn't that contradicting? Idk.. just something to ponder.
I'm not knocking your ideas or your beliefs, this is simply a discussion. Nor am I saying your ideas are impossible. I'm going to sleep. I'm drugged with cold medication. haha. Nighty night x-s!
please dont take this as an insult, like i have said i dont understand whu people have to think there is a starting point for everything. i know its my stomach sick and boggles my mind, but it IS possible that there is no beginning and no end. everything you see could have always been here, time only exists because living beings acnowledge it. Using a god is so much easier to comprehend then an uncomprehensible number. If god is eternal, why cant the invinite universe be eternal. Maybe the universe is god?
gator, how can you use adam and eve as an example of spontaneos creation, im open to any ideas, but you are taking that form a book that contains STORIES. Creation i think is a from of mutation, evolution, change, destruction followed by rebirth. why do you think stuff has to be created? If you think a god has always been why is it so hard to believe that the place we live, the universe, has not always been. My eyes see some thing that exists when i look up. to.. many... thoughts... ahhh
gator, how can you use adam and eve as an example of spontaneos creation, im open to any ideas, but you are taking that form a book that contains STORIES. Creation i think is a from of mutation, evolution, change, destruction followed by rebirth. why do you think stuff has to be created? If you think a god has always been why is it so hard to believe that the place we live, the universe, has not always been. My eyes see some thing that exists when i look up. to.. many... thoughts... ahhh
i still dont see how anything can come from nothing. If you have any specific examples of something spontaneously creating itself, please do share as I have found nothing yet like such a thing.
I also dont see howyou can deny the fact of any sort of aided creation by another force. Where did our universe come from? How did it get started? Where did all the gases from the big bang theory come from?
And I was mearley using Adam and eve as an example, it was the first thing that poped in my head.
I also dont see howyou can deny the fact of any sort of aided creation by another force. Where did our universe come from? How did it get started? Where did all the gases from the big bang theory come from?
And I was mearley using Adam and eve as an example, it was the first thing that poped in my head.
reading thru this, and so many questions left unanswered.. my main two..
1. christians say that the big bang is impossible because "something had to create that initial mass" ... well, if everything had to have been created, then where did god come from? how can the rule exist for one thing, but not the other?
2. people bring up creationism via adam and eve.. how could this be possible? did you never study inbred hybridization in school? generation upon generation stemmed from the same genes leads to utter failure. offspring are, for lack of a better word, retarded. this has been both studied and proved in various tests, yet somehow humans are immune to these effects?
my personal belief? god (and the bible) was seen as an easy way to maintain order over a large group of people. threaten people with punishment from an all-seeing invisible force (along with a few staged examples of this unforseen power) and they will, for the most part, be scared into doing pretty much whatever you want them to do. religious leaders see the general public as cattle in need of herding.. nothing more
1. christians say that the big bang is impossible because "something had to create that initial mass" ... well, if everything had to have been created, then where did god come from? how can the rule exist for one thing, but not the other?
2. people bring up creationism via adam and eve.. how could this be possible? did you never study inbred hybridization in school? generation upon generation stemmed from the same genes leads to utter failure. offspring are, for lack of a better word, retarded. this has been both studied and proved in various tests, yet somehow humans are immune to these effects?
my personal belief? god (and the bible) was seen as an easy way to maintain order over a large group of people. threaten people with punishment from an all-seeing invisible force (along with a few staged examples of this unforseen power) and they will, for the most part, be scared into doing pretty much whatever you want them to do. religious leaders see the general public as cattle in need of herding.. nothing more
@ #1: Well if there is a god out there, he would not need a creator technically since he would be god, but then again we won't know if there is until we die so that will be a question left un answered forever.
@ #2: I was simply using adam and eve as two random people, I could have said John and Jane or Bob and Betty. I wasn't trying to say that adam and eve. So then like I said, I do beleive in the theory of evolution so maybe two people weren't "created", but rather two elements and from then onto single celled organisms, etc etc
I still have yet to see any evidence of something not having a beginning (besides god because that will never be proven nor disproven) so please, if anyone has a picture or video or something showing something spontaneously creating itself onto something, I will change my beliefs forever (no im not a christian TBH, I believe what I believe and nothing more FYI)
@ #2: I was simply using adam and eve as two random people, I could have said John and Jane or Bob and Betty. I wasn't trying to say that adam and eve. So then like I said, I do beleive in the theory of evolution so maybe two people weren't "created", but rather two elements and from then onto single celled organisms, etc etc
I still have yet to see any evidence of something not having a beginning (besides god because that will never be proven nor disproven) so please, if anyone has a picture or video or something showing something spontaneously creating itself onto something, I will change my beliefs forever (no im not a christian TBH, I believe what I believe and nothing more FYI)
QUOTE(gatorayde @ Mar 4 2008, 01:37 AM)
i still dont see how anything can come from nothing. If you have any specific examples of something spontaneously creating itself, please do share as I have found nothing yet like such a thing.
Energy can be spontaneously created for extremely short bursts of time.
For all we know, since time is not real, this all can be a spontaneous quantum fluctuation. The closer you are to the speed of light the slower times goes. We could be traveling at as close to as mathematically possible to the speed of light right now. Therefor to "God's" inertial frame, we are still only in the middle of a burst.
QUOTE(gatorayde @ Mar 4 2008, 08:40 AM)
I still have yet to see any evidence of something not having a beginning (besides god because that will never be proven nor disproven) so please, if anyone has a picture or video or something showing something spontaneously creating itself onto something
evidence of something with no beginning? such as numbers?
and as far as something spontaniously creating itself out of nothing... how about the decay of a deuterium atom into a proton and electron.. if you look at the end results... you will notice that the combined mass of the two particles after the reaction is greater than the mass of one deuterium atom.. it's not much but it proves a point that matter can in fact be created... however you need energy to do so.. and as throwingks brought up right before me.. quantum fluctuations can produce energy
god is dead and we killed him
The bible describes how to get to heaven, science explains how the heavens go
My opinion is that GOD, JESUS, THE BIBLE ARE NOT REAL / no religion is real. And when you die your nothing just like before you were born. no heaven no hell. Any intelligible person knows that deep down. I mean just look...when your in a deep sleep everything is just black and being dead is kind of like a deep sleep. Everything is just gonna be black and you'll be un-conscious. But the universe in whole is something different it didn't just appear all of a sudden. The universe is.. A SIZE that is un-imaginable and if their is any type of afterlife's or any of that crap it would be re-creation. Cause that's the only way you could physically be alive again and able to process thought. But it's all just too confusing cause you came from the genes of the people who created you. That means if you yourself will not be recreated but you will be a completely different species and you will have no recollection of your life before because you have different organs and different ways of living maybe not even organs or anything that involves the brain and thinking. Maybe life in other universes consist of things un-known to this universe.
When it's all said and done, your dead and you will never be existing again. EVER!! Hurt's but it's the truth. SO STAY ALIVE AS LONG AS YOU POSSIBLY CAN. BUT EVEN THAT DOEST"T MATTER!!! SURVIVAL DOES NOT MATTER BECAUSE YOUR GOING TO DIE EVENTUALLY.
When it's all said and done, your dead and you will never be existing again. EVER!! Hurt's but it's the truth. SO STAY ALIVE AS LONG AS YOU POSSIBLY CAN. BUT EVEN THAT DOEST"T MATTER!!! SURVIVAL DOES NOT MATTER BECAUSE YOUR GOING TO DIE EVENTUALLY.
been reading much Nietzsche? that and lostboys' two quotes above with the god is dead.... he's a very angry individual.. read some of his works 
regarding the afterlife, honestly i agree with you, was it Marx who said that religion was the opium of the people? that it distracts people from the now and lets them focus on the later... i agree in the sense that i don't think there's an afterlife but i don't need one yet... (by yet i mean that a lot of people getting up in the years magically find out that they've been religious all their lives) i just think that it's one of those things made up to not feel so bad about dying.. do what the old and exciting religions did.. become immortal through some kind of achievement that makes your legacy live on forever.. a legend that lives on forever
kitty.. your arguments are poorly formed how can you deny the existence of a bible or even jesus for that matter... go to a church to become convinced that both are in fact very real.. their holy validity is under suspicion but you have to specify.. otherwise assholes like myself are gonna pick apart your arguments.
furthermore you're a little defeatist. the fact that you're inevitably going to die doesn't mean that survival doesn't matter.. it just means that you only have from the time you're born to the time you die to actually do something useful with your life
but this is getting off topic of the existence of god.. and simply put we're not going to get an answer. because the question itself is vague. the idea of "god" is poorly defined thus it cannot be proved or disproved, the whole point is that you're supposed to take it on faith and if you have it, more power to you. religion however has played a HUGE role on the evolution of society.. historically, mostly negatively so i don't really want or need it in my life
regarding the afterlife, honestly i agree with you, was it Marx who said that religion was the opium of the people? that it distracts people from the now and lets them focus on the later... i agree in the sense that i don't think there's an afterlife but i don't need one yet... (by yet i mean that a lot of people getting up in the years magically find out that they've been religious all their lives) i just think that it's one of those things made up to not feel so bad about dying.. do what the old and exciting religions did.. become immortal through some kind of achievement that makes your legacy live on forever.. a legend that lives on forever
kitty.. your arguments are poorly formed how can you deny the existence of a bible or even jesus for that matter... go to a church to become convinced that both are in fact very real.. their holy validity is under suspicion but you have to specify.. otherwise assholes like myself are gonna pick apart your arguments.
furthermore you're a little defeatist. the fact that you're inevitably going to die doesn't mean that survival doesn't matter.. it just means that you only have from the time you're born to the time you die to actually do something useful with your life
but this is getting off topic of the existence of god.. and simply put we're not going to get an answer. because the question itself is vague. the idea of "god" is poorly defined thus it cannot be proved or disproved, the whole point is that you're supposed to take it on faith and if you have it, more power to you. religion however has played a HUGE role on the evolution of society.. historically, mostly negatively so i don't really want or need it in my life
are you calling me angry or Nietzsche?
As far as the afterlife is concerned i am huge believer in the method described in slaughterhouse 5.
As far as the afterlife is concerned i am huge believer in the method described in slaughterhouse 5.
QUOTE(lostboyz @ Mar 6 2008, 02:34 PM)
are you calling me angry or Nietzsche?
As far as the afterlife is concerned i am huge believer in the method described in slaughterhouse 5.
god is dead was one of nietzche's most popular quotes so i found it funny that you said that and were followed up by roughly his philosophical perspective
and i never read slaughterhouse 5.. so you're gonna have to elaborate a little bit
QUOTE(HOUSECAT @ Mar 6 2008, 06:41 AM)
Any intelligible person knows that deep down.
Quoth the ignorant man.
QUOTE(hamwbone @ Mar 6 2008, 05:16 PM)
Quoth the ignorant man.
lol you don't understand.. if deep down inside you don't know.. then obviously you're not intelligible enough
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.