BoNg420
Aug 11 2009, 06:01 PM
Due to other posts going way off topic, they will be closed.
Please ask questions here
Liteon 83850c hardware support and related software suport:
LOS83
Freekey
Dosflash
OpenKey
Jungleflasher
Please keep this thread on topic. No personal attacks against members or hacking groups and no off-topic posts. Members breaking these rules will have proper infractions(bans, mutes, etc.) placed on accounts as needed.
Please help the scene and community and support your fellow hackers and modders. Please help other members seeking help with their liteon drives.
DO NOT USE PROBE/SPEAR WITH LITEON 83850C DRIVES! IT IS NOT NEEDED AND CAN DAMAGE YOUR HARDWARE!Tutorials:Tutorial made by OggyUK using jungleflasher and openkeyClick on tutorial description to view.
syntaxerror329
Aug 11 2009, 06:58 PM
QUOTE(BoNg420 @ Aug 11 2009, 01:01 PM)

DO NOT USE PROBE/SPEAR WITH LITEON 83850C DRIVES! IT IS NOT NEEDED AND CAN DAMAGE YOUR HARDWARE!
Ok, glad you said this. Here is why.
It is said the you can flash a 83850C with firmware from the 74850c and vice-versa.
I already flashed a 74 with the 83 iXtreme to try all the new tools (los83 and freekey) in preparation.
If you flash a 83850C with 74850 firmware does the probe work again or is the TX killed right in the hardware?
BoNg420
Aug 11 2009, 07:43 PM
QUOTE(syntaxerror329 @ Aug 11 2009, 01:58 PM)

Ok, glad you said this. Here is why.
It is said the you can flash a 83850C with firmware from the 74850c and vice-versa.
I already flashed a 74 with the 83 iXtreme to try all the new tools (los83 and freekey) in preparation.
If you flash a 83850C with 74850 firmware does the probe work again or is the TX killed right in the hardware?
I'm not sure if the probe would work again, but if you put ixtreme on a liteon, you don't need a probe again, you can get all the required info through sata.
PornOH
Aug 11 2009, 08:42 PM
QUOTE(syntaxerror329 @ Aug 11 2009, 10:58 AM)

Ok, glad you said this. Here is why.
It is said the you can flash a 83850C with firmware from the 74850c and vice-versa.
I already flashed a 74 with the 83 iXtreme to try all the new tools (los83 and freekey) in preparation.
If you flash a 83850C with 74850 firmware does the probe work again or is the TX killed right in the hardware?
You shouldn't need to use the probe again since JungleFlasher can grab the key data from any iXtreme firmware.
syntaxerror329
Aug 11 2009, 08:53 PM
QUOTE(BoNg420 @ Aug 11 2009, 02:43 PM)

I'm not sure if the probe would work again, but if you put ixtreme on a liteon, you don't need a probe again, you can get all the required info through sata.
QUOTE(PornOH @ Aug 11 2009, 03:42 PM)

You shouldn't need to use the probe again since JungleFlasher can grab the key data from any iXtreme firmware.
Yes, i know with iXtreme i wouldn't need to ever extract via serial again.
My question was very specific. I am trying to understand if TX was killed in the hardware or in the firmware or maybe both even.
Again question i am asking is "If you flash a 83850C with 74850 firmware does the probe work again or is the TX killed right in the hardware?"
So if someone is bored, has a 83850 and will flash it with ixtreme74850 and then try to dump key via serial i would like to know what the result was.
turny
Aug 11 2009, 10:47 PM
and the difference between 83850c and the 74850c is firmware only, have done the same flashed 74 as 83 and extracted with success,I can see no reason why it it shouldnt work but aint got 83 to try, damm , where as a few weeks ago having a 83 was like having leprosy.
dsavage
Aug 12 2009, 05:16 AM
QUOTE(turny @ Aug 11 2009, 10:47 PM)

aint got 83 to try, damm , where as a few weeks ago having a 83 was like having leprosy.
lol yeah credit that to the magic of the scene and it's sceners.
but i would assume tx was killed in the 838 hardware, just a guess tho.
celltoolz
Aug 12 2009, 06:22 PM
Hey I'm just wondering if bad Identify data can cause E65 Error. I just flashed a 83850c and it worked pretty good, but occasionally now it will get a E65 Error. Here's a picture of jungleflasher. I have the dummy.bin loaded as source and the Lite_CFW.bin that I used to flash the drive loaded as target. Anyways here's a picture:

Looks funny to me, i'm gonna try reflashing it.
-CellToolz
celltoolz
Aug 12 2009, 06:55 PM
QUOTE(celltoolz @ Aug 12 2009, 06:22 PM)

Hey I'm just wondering if bad Identify data can cause E65 Error. I just flashed a 83850c and it worked pretty good, but occasionally now it will get a E65 Error. Here's a picture of jungleflasher. I have the dummy.bin loaded as source and the Lite_CFW.bin that I used to flash the drive loaded as target. Anyways here's a picture:

Looks funny to me, i'm gonna try reflashing it.
-CellToolz
LOL, Actually i used OpenKey not FreeKey to create the Key file then used JF to create Dummy.bin
fitsman
Aug 12 2009, 07:11 PM
Hi. the problem that exist with the wrong key(140F0F1011B5223D79587717FFD9EC3A) on the liteon-83850c is corrected or not?
celltoolz
Aug 12 2009, 07:15 PM
The key is correct and it plays backups/originals. Just sometimes it get's E65 on Boot. I'm thinking it has to do with bad Identify Data. It was a customer console so now I'm headed out to Portland to replace it.

i guess you live and learn and then get Luvs...
-CellToolz
dragon45801
Aug 12 2009, 07:19 PM
@celltoolz
How long after flash before e65 began showing up? i used freekey to create my files and so far so good
celltoolz
Aug 12 2009, 07:26 PM
About 2 days after flashing. Also it's a brand new Console just got it back from MS Repair center about 7 days ago if that, everything worked fine before flashing. I'm headed to the dudes house right now to do a swap with another console then i'm gonna try reflashing and see if that fixes the problem. Ill post back.
-CellToolz
brain27
Aug 13 2009, 05:29 PM
Do we still need to use the Xtractor Reader program to obtain the 3 bins or does JF do it all?
Im a noob so help me out
xbox360sexual
Aug 13 2009, 05:56 PM
Use LO83 to extract the ident and key information, then use FudoWarez program to open the .bin file, decrypt the key, and generate a dummy file for use with JungleFlasher.
So in this order:
1.) Download and run LO83info_32.exe with Liteon drive connected
http://anonym.to/?http://www.devilsps3.cen...850c/83850c.rar2.) Download and run the FudoWarez program. Open the file you saved with LO32, decrypt the key, and save a Dummy.bin file
http://anonym.to/?http://www.devilsps3.cen...850c/83850c.rar3.) Run JungleFlasher. Open the Dummy.bin file and flash to drive.
http://www.jungleflasher.net/files/JungleF...0.1.65.Beta.rar
PornOH
Aug 13 2009, 08:52 PM
QUOTE(xbox360sexual @ Aug 13 2009, 09:56 AM)

snip
Exactly what I just told someone else to do.

Good tips.
Edit: your links for 1) and 2) are the same.

-- and they took me to -
http://www.shop.redboxmod.com/ the first time when I clicked the link from anonym.to. Looks like redboxmod blocks referers it doesn't recognize, but allows blank referers. Clicking the links here, and letting them redirect themselves works, giving a blank referer.
Edit2:
Lo83info_32:
http://abgx360download.com/downloads/lo83.zipfwz decrypter 1.1:
http://abgx360download.com/downloads/fwz_decrypter_1.1.zipJungleFlasher:
http://jungleflasher.net/downloads.html
fitsman
Aug 14 2009, 03:48 AM
Hi.
I have some questions about freekey1.2 & dosflash 1.8:
1. Which is the differences about freekey 1.0 and the freekey 1.2?
2. The new dosflash 1.8 it dump all the files of new liteon - 83850c correct and decrypted or not?
3. The freekey1.2 it bring me the error "dedication string is missing!" what that error means?
A lot of thanks.
sancho_panza
Aug 14 2009, 05:52 PM
Hi I'm choosing a drive to test my keys, can I still use a spare Hitachi to test my 83850c keys or just need something else (Benq, Samsung, Lite-On); sorry for the noob question, just to be sure I'm buying the right thing.
QUOTE(fitsman @ Aug 14 2009, 04:48 AM)

3. The freekey1.2 it bring me the error "dedication string is missing!" what that error means?
It means that you dumped uncorrect your encrypted key, so, please, don't flash.
Prae71
Aug 15 2009, 06:10 AM
QUOTE(fitsman @ Aug 12 2009, 01:11 PM)

Hi. the problem that exist with the wrong key(140F0F1011B5223D79587717FFD9EC3A) on the liteon-83850c is corrected or not?
I'm gonna take a guess that you haven't deleted your VIA drivers yet?
deilzfcjk
Aug 15 2009, 06:49 AM
at fitsman,
yeah the problem with that bad key dump is fixed.
Don't worry. it's all pretty much automatic. Yes dosflash 1.8 generates the key unencrypted. Schtrom is knowledgeable.
celltoolz
Aug 16 2009, 01:50 AM
Hey guys, so i reflashed the drive and am still getting E65 occasionally. Can't seem to figure it out, it's a brand new console from the ms repair center. I flashed my buddy's 83850c and his is working just fine. Any input would be helpful.
I flashed it twice Here's both the JF log files.
QUOTE
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~
JungleFlasher 0.1.65 Beta
Session Started Thu Aug 06 16:40:52 2009
This is a 32 bit process running on 2 x 32 bit CPUs
PortIO is installed and running.
Found 4 I/O Ports.
Found 1 Com Ports.
Found 6 windows drives C: D: E: G: H: I:
Found 3 CD/DVD drives E: G: I:
Loading target file H:\Alex\360 General\360 Modding\ix16-liteon838.bin
Target File MD5 hash is: bc61fac4efd37b69f88dfabe6e104117
Genuine Lite-On 83850c iXtreme 1.6
Inquiry area found
Current DVD key is 55AA55AA55AA55AA55AA55AA55AA55AA
Firmware is a Lite-On encrypted iXtreme OSIG: PLDS DG-16D2S 8385
Firmware type is: iXtreme v1.60-12X-FINAL-DG-16D2S
Target f/w saved as: C:\Users\CellToolz\Desktop\002887374007 Alex\Lite_CFW.bin
Sending Lite-On-Erase request to port 0xDF00
..............
Drive returned Status 0xD0
....
Serial flash found with Status 0x72
Sending Vendor Outro to port 0xDF00
Manufacturer ID: 0xC2
Device ID: 0x11
Flash Name: MXIC(MX25L2005)
Flash Size: 262144 bytes
Getting Status from port 0xDF00
SPi flash found with Status 0x72
Sending Chip Erase to Port 0xDF00
Writing target buffer to flash
Writing Bank 0: ................
Writing Bank 1: ................
Writing Bank 2: ................
Writing Bank 3: ................
Flash Verification Test !
Reading Bank 0: ................
Reading Bank 1: ................
Reading Bank 2: ................
Reading Bank 3: ................
Write verified OK !
Sending Vendor Outro to port 0xDF00
I dont get this first flash. It appears that the key/inquiry data didn't get copied, but everything was there but half the identify data this is why i reflashed thinking that it would fix the E65 problem.
Flash2:
QUOTE
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~
JungleFlasher 0.1.65 Beta
Session Started Wed Aug 12 17:28:11 2009
This is a 32 bit process running on 2 x 32 bit CPUs
PortIO is installed and running.
Found 4 I/O Ports.
Found 1 Com Ports.
Found 6 windows drives C: D: E: G: H: I:
Found 3 CD/DVD drives E: G: I:
Loading Source File H:\Alex\360 General\Backups\002887374007 JT\dummy.bin
Inquiry string found
Identify string found
DVD key found @ 0xA030 key is FD8C15D27741DECCBCCD48689DB66259
Firmware is a Lite-On Dummy OSIG:
Firmware type is: Dummy from LO83info.bin.key
Auto-Loading target file H:\Alex\360 General\360 Modding\JungleFlasher v0.1.65 Beta\firmware\ix16-liteon838.bin
Target File MD5 hash is: bc61fac4efd37b69f88dfabe6e104117
Genuine Lite-On 83850c iXtreme 1.6
Inquiry area found
Current DVD key is 55AA55AA55AA55AA55AA55AA55AA55AA
Firmware is a Lite-On encrypted iXtreme OSIG: PLDS DG-16D2S 8385
Firmware type is: iXtreme v1.60-12X-FINAL-DG-16D2S
DVD Key copied to target
Inquiry string copied from Source to Target
Identify string copied from Source to Target
Serial strings copied from Source to Target
Target f/w saved as: H:\Alex\360 General\Backups\002887374007 JT\Lite_CFW.bin
Sending Lite-On-Erase request to port 0xDF00
.............
Drive returned Status 0x0
.....
Serial flash found with Status 0x72
Sending Vendor Outro to port 0xDF00
Manufacturer ID: 0xC2
Device ID: 0x11
Flash Name: MXIC(MX25L2005)
Flash Size: 262144 bytes
Getting Status from port 0xDF00
SPi flash found with Status 0x72
Sending Chip Erase to Port 0xDF00
Writing target buffer to flash
Writing Bank 0: ................
Writing Bank 1: ................
Writing Bank 2: ................
Writing Bank 3: ................
Flash Verification Test !
Reading Bank 0: ................
Reading Bank 1: ................
Reading Bank 2: ................
Reading Bank 3: ................
Write verified OK !
Sending Vendor Outro to port 0xDF00
frog360
Aug 16 2009, 05:41 AM
Hey All - Great post,
Just to get this straight....to flash a Liteon 83850c with i-extreme i need the following:
LO83info_32.exe
FudoWarez
Lastest JungleFlasher
Is this correct? - What are the big major precautions to take, and is there a new iextreme firmware for the 83850c - or do we use the old liteon one?
Thanks in reply!
dragon45801
Aug 16 2009, 09:00 AM
QUOTE(celltoolz @ Aug 15 2009, 08:50 PM)

Hey guys, so i reflashed the drive and am still getting E65 occasionally. Can't seem to figure it out, it's a brand new console from the ms repair center. I flashed my buddy's 83850c and his is working just fine. Any input would be helpful.
I flashed it twice Here's both the JF log files.
I dont get this first flash. It appears that the key/inquiry data didn't get copied, but everything was there but half the identify data this is why i reflashed thinking that it would fix the E65 problem.
Flash2:
since e65 is a fw error and you have reflashed im guessing bad pcb? did you try flashing a sammy or benq or different model drive and seeing what it does?
fitsman
Aug 16 2009, 08:05 PM
QUOTE(deilzfcjk @ Aug 15 2009, 12:49 AM)

at fitsman,
yeah the problem with that bad key dump is fixed.
Don't worry. it's all pretty much automatic. Yes dosflash 1.8 generates the key unencrypted. Schtrom is knowledgeable.
Does anyone try to do all the procedure completele from dos? And create the liteon-83850c ixtreme 1.60 firmware with firmtool 1.3.1?
Or the hacked ixtreme 1.60 for 83850c must created from jungleflasher 1.65beta?
Finally how many of you does it completely dump the liteon-83850c with dosflash 1.8 and the all procedure(Dump thru dosflash1.8 - create hacked fw from jf 1.65b - flash thru dosflash1.8) work just perfect(The decrypted key is the correct)?
A lot of thanks.
dougiegillam1357
Aug 18 2009, 12:28 PM
Iprep V10 has just been released, this dos it all in dos.download it here
http://www.klutsh.com/
greatsave9
Aug 18 2009, 12:57 PM
I just tried to flash a newer Lite-On using the LO83 and the OpenKey.exe command prompt and all... Well I got the key, manually spoofed it, and flashed, and now I get an E66 as soon as the Xbox tries to load! I used Jungleflasher and didn't have any errors. Anyone else experience this?
SunnyBwoy
Aug 19 2009, 12:31 AM
so i guess i got a bad key like everyone else i tried addiding my bin that i extracted with lo83 into fwz decrypter and it says bad AES KEY. so does that mean im completely screwed or is there another way someone can get my key from the generated bin i got from Lo83 that originally gave me the (140F0F1011B5223D79587717FFD9EC3A) bad key lmk thanx
p.s i still have the 3 generated files from extractor tool not sure if that will help
xbox360sexual
Aug 19 2009, 12:38 AM
the dump is bad, you'll need to keep trying extracting until you get a good dump. No one else can do anything besides try your drive with their SATA controller.
SunnyBwoy
Aug 19 2009, 01:20 AM
QUOTE(xbox360sexual @ Aug 19 2009, 12:38 AM)

the dump is bad, you'll need to keep trying extracting until you get a good dump. No one else can do anything besides try your drive with their SATA controller.
only thing about that is that i already Flashed the drive so guess im F%$#@.
celltoolz
Aug 19 2009, 05:06 AM
QUOTE(greatsave9 @ Aug 18 2009, 12:57 PM)

I just tried to flash a newer Lite-On using the LO83 and the OpenKey.exe command prompt and all... Well I got the key, manually spoofed it, and flashed, and now I get an E66 as soon as the Xbox tries to load! I used Jungleflasher and didn't have any errors. Anyone else experience this?
This is just like my problem, except mine works occasionally, i'm getting E65. I think i'm going to spoof another drive and see how that works. Also i flashed another xbox with a 83850c using the same procedure and it worked perfectly.
-CellToolz
greatsave9
Aug 19 2009, 01:53 PM
OK, first problem I had, stupid me, Didn't see IXtreme 1.6 for 83850C specifically. I tried the old one and ignored the error message. Stupid Me.
OK wierd now, I fixed my problem of E66 and RRoD by using Iprep, to restore it so that JungleFlasher could at least detect it was a 7850 drive. Don't know how I did it, but it did. Then I reflashed it to 83850C by manually spoofing it and now I can get to the Xbox Dashboard, but my DVD drive can't read backups or originals at all. Any advice?
May start from step 1 all over again and see what I can do, but will have to wait til tonight to try.
BoNg420
Aug 19 2009, 02:10 PM
QUOTE(greatsave9 @ Aug 19 2009, 08:53 AM)

OK, first problem I had, stupid me, Didn't see IXtreme 1.6 for 83850C specifically. I tried the old one and ignored the error message. Stupid Me.
OK wierd now, I fixed my problem of E66 and RRoD by using Iprep, to restore it so that JungleFlasher could at least detect it was a 7850 drive. Don't know how I did it, but it did. Then I reflashed it to 83850C by manually spoofing it and now I can get to the Xbox Dashboard, but my DVD drive can't read backups or originals at all. Any advice?
May start from step 1 all over again and see what I can do, but will have to wait til tonight to try.
if you cant read backups or originals sounds like you have the wrong key!
dragon45801
Aug 20 2009, 01:22 AM
QUOTE(BoNg420 @ Aug 19 2009, 09:10 AM)

if you cant read backups or originals sounds like you have the wrong key!
Exactly
greatsave9
Aug 20 2009, 02:24 AM
QUOTE(dragon45801 @ Aug 20 2009, 12:22 AM)

Exactly
Thanks guys. Too wierd, I didn't get that Generic CD key that they say it gives, I got one that both OpenKey and FreeKey reported that was good. O well, friends Xbox, not mine. Thx
fitsman
Aug 21 2009, 10:40 PM
To make a successful dumping of the new liteon-83850c drive with dosflash 1.8beta
Must:
1. Open the tray
2. Remove power cable
3. Manually do the half open tray
4. Connect the power cable
5. Remove power cable
6. Manually do the full open tray
7. Connect the power cable
Or all that you must do it with power cable on the dirive exept the first time(for half open tray)
a lot of thanks.
OggyUK
Aug 22 2009, 09:19 AM
Bong420 - can you alter the link to the new guide:
http://jungleflasher.net/files/83850c.pdfRemove this post after

Cheers!
sancho_panza
Aug 25 2009, 08:42 PM
so jungleflasher latest version created me my dummy.bin, inquiry.bin and identify.bin; are those file sufficient? should I find something else?
sumotherdude
Aug 26 2009, 12:48 AM
Dumb question, but do you still need the CK3 with this new drive?
brain27
Aug 26 2009, 09:23 AM
QUOTE(sumotherdude @ Aug 26 2009, 12:48 AM)

Dumb question, but do you still need the CK3 with this new drive?
the ck3 is used to power the dvd drive. its not necessary but it is recommended
PornOH
Aug 29 2009, 05:47 AM
QUOTE(OggyUK @ Aug 22 2009, 01:19 AM)

Bong420 - can you alter the link to the new guide:
http://jungleflasher.net/files/83850c.pdfRemove this post after

Cheers!
Thanks for this. I was curious if there was a new one to accompany the new release.
I got as far as creating the firmware with the newest JF and stopped, since I wanted to test on a spare drive first.
My question for whoever is listening -
When testing on a spare drive, do you need to spoof as liteon 8xxx, or just use benq firmware with the correct key?
Couldn't quite figure out how to do it earlier.
PornOH
Aug 29 2009, 06:58 AM
Ended up trusting the good people on this forum and their amazing tools and flashed the 8x just fine.
Thanks all.
yanksrule421
Sep 5 2009, 04:25 AM
QUOTE(PornOH @ Aug 29 2009, 01:58 AM)

Ended up trusting the good people on this forum and their amazing tools and flashed the 8x just fine.
Thanks all.
hey i have a lite on drive and i want to use jungle flasher but i dont want to solder or get the probe.
what if i power the drive using the xbox would that work
also whenever i use iprep v10.1 i prepare a usb but when i try to boot from it, it says disk error press any key to try again.
i am using a rosewill pci card with a via 6421 sata chipset.
what's the problem please help
brain27
Sep 5 2009, 12:17 PM
QUOTE(yanksrule421 @ Sep 5 2009, 04:25 AM)

hey i have a lite on drive and i want to use jungle flasher but i dont want to solder or get the probe.
what if i power the drive using the xbox would that work
also whenever i use iprep v10.1 i prepare a usb but when i try to boot from it, it says disk error press any key to try again.
i am using a rosewill pci card with a via 6421 sata chipset.
what's the problem please help
Whats the fw of the drive? e.g 8xxxxx or 7xxxxx
yanksrule421
Sep 5 2009, 06:30 PM
QUOTE(brain27 @ Sep 5 2009, 07:17 AM)

Whats the fw of the drive? e.g 8xxxxx or 7xxxxx
83850c
n by the way i have a dell optiplex gx280 with the via 6421 chipset in my rosewill pci card
PornOH
Sep 5 2009, 09:34 PM
QUOTE(yanksrule421 @ Sep 5 2009, 10:30 AM)

83850c
n by the way i have a dell optiplex gx280 with the via 6421 chipset in my rosewill pci card
You do not need to solder or use the probe on the 8xxxx drives.
yanksrule421
Sep 6 2009, 03:50 PM
QUOTE(PornOH @ Sep 5 2009, 04:34 PM)

You do not need to solder or use the probe on the 8xxxx drives.
my bad i just found out i have a 7xxxx drive
i do not want to solder or use the probe because i dont have one is there any other way
yanksrule421
Sep 6 2009, 04:24 PM
ohh and if i buy a lite on 8xxxx will it still work with my motherboard
thx
brain27
Sep 7 2009, 05:02 PM
QUOTE(yanksrule421 @ Sep 6 2009, 04:24 PM)

ohh and if i buy a lite on 8xxxx will it still work with my motherboard
thx
I dont think so. Cross spoofing isnt supported. Sorry
Bulla666
Sep 7 2009, 06:08 PM
I've got an 83850C and I think I've got my head round flashing. Am I right in thinking that I can get my key using JF and then spoof it onto a spare VAD6038 to test that its worked correctly ? I presume once spoofed the BenQ should play backups ? Then if the BenQ has worked I can go ahead and write to my Liteon ?
Bulla
otakonx
Sep 8 2009, 04:49 PM
My 3rd 360 died last night so I went out and picked up an Elite. It has a LiteOn 83850c in it and thankfully not the older model. It's been years since I've posted here so forgive me if I'm reposting something that's been answered though I've read through countless posts and tutorials. Anyway, I made spoofed LiteOn with my older ms28 drive and successfully flashed it with the LiteOn's key (tested and booted retail games). I'm having problems using the LiteOn erase in JungleFlasher. JungleFlasher returns a drive status of 0x51 which causes the process to fail. I'm using a VIA chipset with PortIO32 installed and VIA's drivers uninstalled. Could this been an issue with me using a spoofed samsung drive? I've been at this for many hours any insight is appreciated.
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