More specifically, I think one of the reasons why MS has generally tolerated the mod scene is that the percentage of modders is relatively small. The fact that users were forced to physically open up their Xboxes to mod them has kept the numbers small, but with easily packaged software exploits such as the new Complex Loader 1.0, I think a lot of casual users might start jumping in.
Also, think about how the no-solder options from the Matrix chip led to so many clueless users flooding the scene without researching answers on their own. Now imagine that number multiplied many times over because now users who want to run modded software don't have to go through the effort of learning to physically install a modchip.
Full Version: Anybody Else Think The 007 Exploit Is A Bad Thing?
I know...
But don't worry, I am sure MS$ will push down a live update to remedy this, or start putting a non-live update on all discs. I think we can all agree they are going to have to do something
But don't worry, I am sure MS$ will push down a live update to remedy this, or start putting a non-live update on all discs. I think we can all agree they are going to have to do something
I hope that xbox will not die like dreamcast did.
| QUOTE |
| I hope that xbox will not die like dreamcast did. |
I wouldn't worry about that. The biggest nail in Dreamcast's coffin came when Sega announced that they would no longer produce/support it... M$ has said repeatedly that they're in the console market for the long term...
| QUOTE |
| I hope that xbox will not die like dreamcast did. |
maby the games will but i dont use my xbox for games just homebrew programs like xbmp ava and for emus
and the dc scene isnt dead new programs are still developed and homebrew games are being developed at the same level as commercial games
http://boob.co.uk
| QUOTE (pez @ Jul 2 2003, 01:17 PM) |
| More specifically, I think one of the reasons why MS has generally tolerated the mod scene is that the percentage of modders is relatively small. The fact that users were forced to physically open up their Xboxes to mod them has kept the numbers small, but with easily packaged software exploits such as the new Complex Loader 1.0, I think a lot of casual users might start jumping in. Also, think about how the no-solder options from the Matrix chip led to so many clueless users flooding the scene without researching answers on their own. Now imagine that number multiplied many times over because now users who want to run modded software don't have to go through the effort of learning to physically install a modchip. |
Why? Besides being a software hack, what really makes this any different than a modchip?
You don't have to know jack to install a modchip anyhow - just send it to an installer or buy a pre-modded box.
Have you ever developed software? Do you know how to fabricate a circuit board or program a chip? If people weren't doing these things for you and making your modding life easier, you wouldn't be here either. If it weren't for communities and boards like this, you'd still be a clueless punk too.
So get off your high horse. Don't sit there and think you are something special or should belong to some elite club for knowing how to solder and turn some screws.
Sorry, just had to give you something to think about. Maybe your mind will open up a little.
Amen akula169.
Could not have said it better myself.
People need to stop flaming noobs for not knowing as much because they were noobs not to long ago.
Alot of these geeks must think they are better then other people just because they know a few things about hacking the xbox.
Could not have said it better myself.
People need to stop flaming noobs for not knowing as much because they were noobs not to long ago.
Alot of these geeks must think they are better then other people just because they know a few things about hacking the xbox.
| QUOTE (akula169 @ Jul 2 2003, 03:55 PM) |
| Why? Besides being a software hack, what really makes this any different than a modchip? You don't have to know jack to install a modchip anyhow - just send it to an installer or buy a pre-modded box. |
There's a HUGE difference in accessibility between the Complex Loader and a modchip (even a pre-installed Matrix).
The Complex Loader doesn't cost the user anything to install AND it doesn't require opening up the console.
Despite what you might think, I have no high horse to get off of. I'm merely pointing out that removing those two factors (cost and effort) could easily bring in a huge flood of attention to the mod scene which could have severe negative results.
Joe User might balk at the idea of anybody opening up his Xbox especially if it cost money, but if a *free* software modification were available with an automated installer, I'm sure he and all his buddies would be jumping on.
That's the sort of widespread attention that could cause MS to stop looking the other direction.
| QUOTE (pez @ Jul 2 2003, 07:30 PM) | ||
There's a HUGE difference in accessibility between the Complex Loader and a modchip (even a pre-installed Matrix). The Complex Loader doesn't cost the user anything to install AND it doesn't require opening up the console. Despite what you might think, I have no high horse to get off of. I'm merely pointing out that removing those two factors (cost and effort) could easily bring in a huge flood of attention to the mod scene which could have severe negative results. Joe User might balk at the idea of anybody opening up his Xbox especially if it cost money, but if a *free* software modification were available with an automated installer, I'm sure he and all his buddies would be jumping on. That's the sort of widespread attention that could cause MS to stop looking the other direction. |
If you think that's bad, wait until Friday.
I suspect the exploit that might be revealed will effectively make this hack a moot point.
...and unfortunately, it may also ruin XBL with a 'true' ability to run backups on a modified Xbox.
| QUOTE (BenJeremy @ Jul 2 2003, 07:34 PM) | ||||
If you think that's bad, wait until Friday. I suspect the exploit that might be revealed will effectively make this hack a moot point. ...and unfortunately, it may also ruin XBL with a 'true' ability to run backups on a modified Xbox. |
BJ, how exactly do you know so much abou these exploits? Not accusing you of anything, just wondering if there is a big news source or anything?
Did I mention I'm a happy Mxm user?
| QUOTE (vidgms4me @ Jul 2 2003, 07:45 PM) | ||||||
BJ, how exactly do you know so much abou these exploits? Not accusing you of anything, just wondering if there is a big news source or anything? Did I mention I'm a happy Mxm user? |
Well, I hear things, plus I'm not entirely unfamiliar with the underlying system.
**IF** the rumors are true, along with my own logical speculation, the breakthrough will be related to something interesting that's been worked on here in X-S' forums over the last couple weeks - but the crackers obviously are not THOSE people. Either the breakthrough was inspired by/a result of a utility app created for that research - OR simply an unusual coincidence.
If my guess is correct, you 'invade' the Xbox with the 007-type exploit, but no longer need it after the initial hack.... yet the Xbox BIOS is not modified after the dust settles.
This would likely be a bad thing.
XBL is slick.... it's the IDEAL business model for consumers!! Love 'em or hate 'em, M$ has a kick ass plan - pay ONE PRICE and enjoy Live enabled games in whatever way you want. compare this to Sony's asinine "ala Carte" plan that has you paying different publishers for different games.
Want to play three different XBL games in a month? You can for the single monthly payment... play those SAME three games under Sony's plan? Make that THREE Monthly payments!! EA likes Sony's plan, because they are greedy bastards and only see the short term picture.
Anyway, I'd hate to see XBL get hammered. It would indeed be a bad thing.
| QUOTE (BenJeremy @ Jul 2 2003, 05:04 PM) |
| XBL is slick.... it's the IDEAL business model for consumers!! Love 'em or hate 'em, M$ has a kick ass plan - pay ONE PRICE and enjoy Live enabled games in whatever way you want. compare this to Sony's asinine "ala Carte" plan that has you paying different publishers for different games. Want to play three different XBL games in a month? You can for the single monthly payment... play those SAME three games under Sony's plan? Make that THREE Monthly payments!! EA likes Sony's plan, because they are greedy bastards and only see the short term picture. Anyway, I'd hate to see XBL get hammered. It would indeed be a bad thing. |
The business end of XBL is not the only thing that would be damaged by this speculated exploit.
Getting unsigned code to run on XBL would also open it up to cheaters. Who wants to play with a bunch of jerks who have to cheat because they're too immature to handle losing once in a while? Where's the fun in playing against someone who's invincible?
Let Sony keep their hacked online games, and let MS keep XBL cheat-free.
Just to clear things up:
BenJeremy was probably refering to the following possible method:
1) Use 007 to get access to Xbox HDD
2) Modify original dash in a way that allows it to be run out-of-the-box (i.e. without 007 hack).
This is the hard part, since any change in that xbe would break the signature. This is why BenJeremy refered to a thread in this forum about hacking the scripting language of the dash:
Original Dash hacking
Maybe it would be possible to exploit the script language somehow in order to run something. But then again, this "something" would need to signed as well.
So what I think is we are missing one major step from always using 007 to running non-signed code right at bootup.
Another thing that is interesting is that the Complex Loader comes out just a few days before the 4th of july. Maybe it will be used in the "final" solution and _someone_ decided to release it earlier. Maybe to draw some attention, who knows.
Obviously a part of any solution would be replacing the original bios which is still in the memory. This can be done by the loader and that is why that loader is a major breakthrough.
Now all we need is a way to run that loader at bootup...
BenJeremy was probably refering to the following possible method:
1) Use 007 to get access to Xbox HDD
2) Modify original dash in a way that allows it to be run out-of-the-box (i.e. without 007 hack).
This is the hard part, since any change in that xbe would break the signature. This is why BenJeremy refered to a thread in this forum about hacking the scripting language of the dash:
Original Dash hacking
Maybe it would be possible to exploit the script language somehow in order to run something. But then again, this "something" would need to signed as well.
So what I think is we are missing one major step from always using 007 to running non-signed code right at bootup.
Another thing that is interesting is that the Complex Loader comes out just a few days before the 4th of july. Maybe it will be used in the "final" solution and _someone_ decided to release it earlier. Maybe to draw some attention, who knows.
Obviously a part of any solution would be replacing the original bios which is still in the memory. This can be done by the loader and that is why that loader is a major breakthrough.
Now all we need is a way to run that loader at bootup...
| QUOTE (ZakMcRofl @ Jul 2 2003, 08:42 PM) |
| Just to clear things up: BenJeremy was probably refering to the following possible method: 1) Use 007 to get access to Xbox HDD 2) Modify original dash in a way that allows it to be run out-of-the-box (i.e. without 007 hack). This is the hard part, since any change in that xbe would break the signature. This is why BenJeremy refered to a thread in this forum about hacking the scripting language of the dash: Original Dash hacking Maybe it would be possible to exploit the script language somehow in order to run something. But then again, this "something" would need to signed as well. So what I think is we are missing one major step from always using 007 to running non-signed code right at bootup. Another thing that is interesting is that the Complex Loader comes out just a few days before the 4th of july. Maybe it will be used in the "final" solution and _someone_ decided to release it earlier. Maybe to draw some attention, who knows. Obviously a part of any solution would be replacing the original bios which is still in the memory. This can be done by the loader and that is why that loader is a major breakthrough. Now all we need is a way to run that loader at bootup... |
Well, mind you, it's purely my speculation.
They talked about a "chain of new exploits" - which implies there may be a weakness to be exploited by placing data files on the Xbox (XIP?) in a manner that would cause them to overflow similar to the 007 hack and manage to trigger executable code.
Um, I'm not saying any more, as what's occurred to me is an obvious answer, once the above is accomplished.
Personally I feel that If the exploit is used for just running homebrew stuff and not illegal backups (Cut the crap people Id say 70-90% of the people who say they only need it for backups are pure bullshit) and I hope it never works for xbox live I like my XBL hack free and freeloader free!
Hey BJ, do you know if these "Live Hackers" are the bunch who threatened M$?
A severe piracy threat to Xbox Live is almost enough to get even M$ sweating..
A severe piracy threat to Xbox Live is almost enough to get even M$ sweating..
| QUOTE (Nathan561 @ Jul 2 2003, 09:47 PM) |
| Hey BJ, do you know if these "Live Hackers" are the bunch who threatened M$? A severe piracy threat to Xbox Live is almost enough to get even M$ sweating.. |
I don't think the 'blackmailers' are the rumored Live hackers (which I haven't mentioned, but they apparently, and logically must exist).
Spoofing XBL really shouldn't be too hard, not that I'm going to help anybody do it. I'm absolutely positive SOMEBODY has managed that feat a long time ago. Severe peer pressure is what's keeping it under wraps, to be sure.
When you say all you have to do is get that loader to load on boot, why is that any different than with 007 AUF, other than taking less time?
It's not like the loader still wouldn't alter the bios in memory, making it detectable on !Live.
It's not like the loader still wouldn't alter the bios in memory, making it detectable on !Live.
007 trick is only get new people,too the scene 
so get ready for some stupid questions(is there a boot disk or how do i get
my ps2 games to work on the xbox,etc)
so get ready for some stupid questions(is there a boot disk or how do i get
my ps2 games to work on the xbox,etc)
I don't think it's a bad thing. It's no different than using a mod chip.
To be honest, I don't think installation difficulty has anything to do with the demotivation of the average joe to mod his Xbox. It's money. 90% of people who I know that know about modding that haven't done it, simply haven't because it's not something they would do for fun as a hobby, or they can't justify the cost of modding a toy like the Xbox.
I do realize that with the help of someone with a soldering iron, a copy of 007 AUF, a memory card, and knowledge about how to use the 007 AUF hack to flash the TSOP, you could get your Xbox modded for free.
However, most people don't see the value in it unless they were to add a bigger hard drive, or already own a DVD burner.
There's that cost factor again.
So, ultimately, I don't think it's going to cause a mad flood of potential modders. 007 AUF isn't free, any sort of PC compatible memory card isn't free, a larger HDD isn't free...so therefore, I don't see the potential for a mad rush.
It may interest more people who are interested in homebrew stuff, but how bad is that?
To be honest, I don't think installation difficulty has anything to do with the demotivation of the average joe to mod his Xbox. It's money. 90% of people who I know that know about modding that haven't done it, simply haven't because it's not something they would do for fun as a hobby, or they can't justify the cost of modding a toy like the Xbox.
I do realize that with the help of someone with a soldering iron, a copy of 007 AUF, a memory card, and knowledge about how to use the 007 AUF hack to flash the TSOP, you could get your Xbox modded for free.
However, most people don't see the value in it unless they were to add a bigger hard drive, or already own a DVD burner.
There's that cost factor again.
So, ultimately, I don't think it's going to cause a mad flood of potential modders. 007 AUF isn't free, any sort of PC compatible memory card isn't free, a larger HDD isn't free...so therefore, I don't see the potential for a mad rush.
It may interest more people who are interested in homebrew stuff, but how bad is that?
The exploit is not a bad thing. If M$ was gonna "come down" on the scene, then it would of done it already. Although, there is really nothing illegal taking place anyway.
The only people who will be hurt by this are mod-chip manufacturers and retailers.
P.S: I just hope that if there is ever a hack that is considered "too powerful" that people won't try to cover it up or hide it to save their own special interests.
The only people who will be hurt by this are mod-chip manufacturers and retailers.
P.S: I just hope that if there is ever a hack that is considered "too powerful" that people won't try to cover it up or hide it to save their own special interests.
| QUOTE (NeoKast @ Jul 3 2003, 05:53 AM) |
| When you say all you have to do is get that loader to load on boot, why is that any different than with 007 AUF, other than taking less time? It's not like the loader still wouldn't alter the bios in memory, making it detectable on !Live. |
Well its very different as you wouldn't have to buy 007 and the memory card, you could simply install the hack once and you're set. I don't know how long the 007 method takes, but I imagine it to be quite annoying to wait and press a view buttons every time you boot up your xbox.
True True.
Good point about not needing 007 AUF anymore.
I just assume you'd want it anyways.
Good point about not needing 007 AUF anymore.
I just assume you'd want it anyways.
| QUOTE (Ridley @ Jul 3 2003, 12:07 AM) |
| The exploit is not a bad thing. If M$ was gonna "come down" on the scene, then it would of done it already. Although, there is really nothing illegal taking place anyway. |
Flashing a hacked MS BIOS onto the TSOP to bypass security is an illegal violation of the DMCA.
I'm no lawyer, but I'm guessing that the coders who write software to assist in that sort of activity are also in violation of the DMCA.
Just about everything "we" do is violation of that law, so I wouldn't be too worried about specifics unless you want out of the scene entirely...
| QUOTE (thetruth @ Jul 3 2003, 01:14 PM) |
| Just about everything "we" do is violation of that law, so I wouldn't be too worried about specifics unless you want out of the scene entirely... |
I'm fully aware of the illegality of using a hacked BIOS to run my modded Xbox whenever I just want to run the region-free DVD-X player to play the Region-2 PAL movies I occasionally rent from the video store. I'm willing to acknowledge the existence of a legal violation, although I may not agree with law itself in this case.
I'm simply pointing out to Ridley that he is incorrect when he says that there's nothing illegal going on when the BIOS is being hacked to bypass security.
| QUOTE (BenJeremy @ Jul 3 2003, 12:48 AM) | ||
Well, mind you, it's purely my speculation. They talked about a "chain of new exploits" - which implies there may be a weakness to be exploited by placing data files on the Xbox (XIP?) in a manner that would cause them to overflow similar to the 007 hack and manage to trigger executable code. Um, I'm not saying any more, as what's occurred to me is an obvious answer, once the above is accomplished. |
Wow, you should be a fortune teller.
M$ will come out with a patch which will ban idiots who are using copied games on XBL. Someone will get around the patch and M$ will respond. The battle will be never ending unless MS puts a nail in the coffin by having some sort of prog scan your xbox everytime you connect to XBL. If it detects anything except the norm it will auto ban. I'm sure its not too hard for them.
This is really gonna get ugly on the scene, I can assure you of that. And it will ruin it for the ppl who had games on thier HD's and were buying games to play on Live which was the smart thing to do.
This is really gonna get ugly on the scene, I can assure you of that. And it will ruin it for the ppl who had games on thier HD's and were buying games to play on Live which was the smart thing to do.
| QUOTE (nautiazn85 @ Jul 3 2003, 10:49 PM) | ||||
Wow, you should be a fortune teller. |
Yeah, well, the font (XPR) and DB weaknesses were bound to be exploited eventually.
007 AUF was the foot in the door, and Free-X found the icing on the cake, with a variation on the now accessable dashboard.
Gee... I go away for two days and the whole Xbox "scene" has bee turned on end!!
Buffer overflow exploits are not a new thing... MS$ is constantly tackling this on their PC platform. They will find a way to eliminate it here as well. Just a matter of time. But in the meantime, enjoy your "software-mod" while you can.
Don't expect anything soon. I am sure there will be a project plan to combat this, and it takes time, even if this is code red for MS$ to plan the counter attack. (They will want to get it right first try...)
Don't expect anything soon. I am sure there will be a project plan to combat this, and it takes time, even if this is code red for MS$ to plan the counter attack. (They will want to get it right first try...)
"drugs are bad .....mmm kay" and so is live exploits 
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