The AP25 FAQ by Defosho - Last updated October 11 2011
Short link to this page - http://bit.ly/ap25faq

Update 11 October
System Update 2.0.13604.0 has dae.bin v12 which is the same version as in previous updates 13140-13599. Therefore existing v12/Challenge set 2 patched backups do not need to be re-patched and re-burned for 13604.

All current XGD3 titles are AP25-active in dashboards 13140-13604. The AP25 games list has been updated.

Update 4 October
Added information on:
13599 dashboard
LT+ 1.91 removal of safety freeze feature
"AP26" checks
New XBC and 0800 v3 additions

AP25 active game status - Based on DAE table v12 from 13140-13604 dash
Detailed list at http://bit.ly/ap25list



The abgx360 database currently stores 'challenge set 2' replay sectors, which are based on dae.bin v12 for dashboards 13140-13604.

The basics

What does AP25 mean?
AP25 is short for "AntiPiracy25", and is the term given to a type of disc copy protection used on the Xbox 360. It is an attempt by Microsoft to prevent backups from booting. The protection came into action at the end of 2010.

Which DVD drives support and use AP25?
All drives except for:
Samsung - all
Hitachi - v59 and lower

My drive doesn't support AP25, will I be affected?
No, assuming your drive is not spoofed.
If your drive is spoofed then it may be affected, read on for spoofing information.

Which games are AP25-active?
It depends on your current dashboard version. There is a list at the top of this post or you can find a more detailed list here. These will show you which dashboard version the games are active in.

Which dashboard versions are actively implementing AP25 checks for known games?
12416 - but not when installed with this AP25 bypass method
12611 and all subsequent versions

My dashboard version is older than these but my drive supports AP25 - will I be affected?
Not directly, but many games require a minimum dashboard version to work. The required System Update is on the disc. Some of these required dashboard versions are actively implementing AP25 for specific games. Note: Even if a game requires a particular dash version to work and that dash happens to be implementing AP25, it doesn't necessarily mean that the game itself is AP25-activated in that dash.

Example 1 - NFS:HP and AC:B are wave 9 so they require a minimum dash version of 12416 which is on the discs. Both of these games became AP25-active in 12416.

Example 2 - Bulletstorm (wave 10) requires a minimum dash version of 12611 which is on the disc. Dragon Age 2 (wave 11) requires a minimum of 12625 which is on the disc. Both of these dashboards activate AP25 checks for some games, however Bulletstorm and Dragon Age 2 are not AP25-active in these dashboards.

The AP25 games list shows the minimum dash version required as well as the dash versions that AP25 is active in.

My drive and dashboard both support AP25. Will my existing games work?
Backups that are not AP25-active in your dashboard version will continue to work. All originals will also still work.

What about AP25-active games? How can I play backups of these?
First there needs to be a patch (AP25 replay sector) available for your version of the game and your dashboard version. Each replay sector is uniquely identified with a Media ID for that particular pressing/language/version of a game and will only work with a specific range of dashboard versions. The replay sector contains data based on original disc locations which cannot normally be obtained from a backup disc. The abgx360 database has replay sectors available for the games highlighted on the AP25 games list.

Second you need to patch and (re-)burn the game with the correct AP25 replay sector. I recommend using abgx360. Make sure that the option "Check for updates" is ticked to ensure that it recognizes the most recent AP25-active games. Alternatively you can patch the game manually with a PPF patch from a trusted source (read the warning at the end of this post), you must ensure that you have the correct version (Media ID) of the game and the appropriate dashboard version that the patch applies to.

Finally you must update your drive CFW to LT+ (2.0 is the current version). Your drive will then be able to interpret the newly patched data and provide the correct responses to mimic an original disc.

Why do I need the AP25 replay data at all? Don't I already have a full disc backup?
While you may have every readable sector duplicated on a backup, you can't replicate the physical structure of the disc. It is not possible for consumer DVD writers to make an exact copy of a retail disc. Your copy is has different data location characteristics that AP25 is checking for.

What if I accidentally boot an unpatched or wrongly patched AP25-active game?
If you have LT+ 1.91 or higher or a non-LT "Plus" fw you will get a "disc unreadable" error message and be flagged for a possible future XBL ban.

LT+ 1.9 and older LT+ versions have a protection feature which freezes the console and displays a black screen if an unpatched or patched game with the wrong challenges is booted. This protects your console from being flagged if you turn off the console within 3 minutes of seeing the black screen. This protection is no longer present in LT+ 1.91 and later due to "AP26" checks in newer dash versions.

What is "AP26"?
"AP26" is not an official term but it refers to new checks implemented in the 13599 and later dashboards. These are random AP25 challenges that are sent to the drive in addition to the regular AP25 challenges. Because these challenges are random, the protection feature in older versions of LT+ is activated when an unrecognized challenge is encountered and blocks the game from booting. Even with the correct AP25 data on the backup, the disc will fail to boot with LT+ versions 1.9 and older.

Because of this, LT+ 1.91 and later versions no longer have this protection feature so that backups with the correct AP25 data can boot successfully.

Is there a greater risk of being flagged now that the protection feature has been removed from LT+ versions 1.91 and later?
Yes. You can now be flagged in the following scenarios:

- Booting an unpatched AP25-active game
- Booting an AP25-active game with a corrupt or wrong replay sector
- Booting a game with a replay sector intended for a dash version range that your console doesn't fall into

It is therefore critical that you do not blindly apply new System Updates to your console. If the dae.bin (see below for more info) is updated and challenges change, your backup will no longer boot and you will be flagged. I strongly recommend that you avoid updating to future dashboards until it is known whether the dae.bin has been updated. If it has then you will have to re-burn your backup with new AP25 data (either from abgx360 or XBC+new dae.bin) and discard the old backup which will now be unsafe to use.

Is there any way I can avoid this? Updating firmware and patching is too much hassle for me.
Three options for you:

1) Remain on a dashboard version older than 12416. You won't be able to play games that require a minimum of 12416 (wave 9 titles like NFS:HP, Kinectimals, AC:B) and higher.

2) Install 12416 dash with this AP25 bypass method, but you can only do this if you are currently on an older version. You can now play the games mentioned in (1) but you won't be able to play games that require a minimum of 12611 (wave 10 titles like Bulletstorm) and higher (wave 11 titles like Dragon Age 2 which requires a minimum of 12625).

3) Play your original retail games instead of the backups.

Can I downgrade my dashboard version?
No.

Can I apply the AP25 bypass to 12416 if I have already installed 12416?
No.

Can I spoof my AP25 drive to a Samsung or early Hitachi? Could this trick the console into disabling AP25 checks because these drives don't have AP25?
No. AP25 checks the OSIG (original drive signature: make+version+fw) stored in your motherboard which cannot be changed (unless you have a JTAG/RGH console). If the drive specifed here is one that supports AP25, the console will initiate the AP25 challenges, regardless of whether the actual physical installed drive supports AP25 or not.

So if the OSIG stored is a Liteon, BenQ or late Hitachi, and your actual drive is a Samsung or early Hitachi (spoofed or not), the AP25 challenges are initiated. The drive cannot respond to these challenges because it is not AP25-aware. So the check fails, the disc doesn't boot, and you may get flagged for a future XBL ban.

What about the opposite, a Samsung/early Hitachi OSIG with a spoofed Liteon/BenQ/late Hitachi actual drive?
This should work but it's probably not XBL-safe.

Why am I getting more disc read errors since AP25 came into action?
It has been reported that an AP25-active game causes more work for the laser than usual. The AP25 checks occur during the first few seconds of booting only so if you're getting past that stage then it's not an AP25 issue.
Check that you're using quality media, a decent writer with up to date firmware, and decent writing software like ImgBurn. If you're still having issues then you may want to get your drive laser cleaned/repaired/replaced. Intermittent and inconsistent booting is a key symptom of a bad drive or media.

AP25 activation

What is the AP25 xex flag?
This is a marker in a game executable file which designates the game as "AntiPiracy25 Media". Only AC:B and NFS:HP have this flag. Kinect dashboard versions prior to 12606 use this flag to determine whether to activate AP25 checking. However, since 12606 this is no longer used and now any game could potentially be activated whether it has the flag or not. Therefore, the flag is not a reliable way to determine if a game is AP25-active.

So how can I reliably determine if a game is AP25-active?
If a game identifier is specified in the DAE table of your particular dashboard, that game is AP25-active. Games from the most recent table are listed here with their associated identifiers. Microsoft decides when to add a game to the table. Only these games are being checked for AP25 responses. Since November 2010, they have activated six known XGD2 games and currently all XGD3 games are AP25-active.

How can I check what Media ID my game is?
Scan the ISO or backup disc through abgx360 and it will show in the log. On a retail disc, the last 8 characters are marked on the inner ring, data side.

DvdAuthEx (DAE) table

What is the DvdAuthEx (DAE) table?
Contains a list of identifiers for games and groups of games that are AP25-active along with their associated challenges.

Where is the DAE table stored?
It's stored in an encrypted file in your NAND flash memory on the motherboard of your console, the filename is dae.bin. The console reads this file to determine whether to initiate AP25 checks on a particular game or group of games.

Could Microsoft update the table to change the current challenges or add more challenges?
Yes. Retail dash 13146 implemented the first change of challenges for existing AP25-active games from 'challenge set 1' to '2'.

Could Microsoft update the table to add more game identifiers in the future?
Yes. They have already done so.

If Microsoft update the table to change or add to existing challenges, will I have to patch my game with the new replay data and re-burn?
Yes, please read the earlier question "Is there a greater risk of being flagged...".

Why don't we extract _every_ AP25 response from the original disc then patch our games with this data so that our backups will never need to be re-burned?
Not feasible. Responses can only be retrieved for known challenges (in dae.bin). Microsoft could change the challenges at any time (new dae.bin) at which point we can capture the new response data. The total number of possible challenges is very large as each challenge includes two disc locations and there is a lot of suitable locations on a disc.

How many times has the table changed?
There are several table versions, each associated with a particular dashboard version. Once a game is added, it appears in all subsequent table and dash versions (so far). The most notable are:



How is the table updated?
So far, only through System Updates. The System Update writes a new dae.bin file to the NAND flash. However they could in theory send table updates over XBL "out-of-cycle" of the System Updates.

Can a Title Update activate AP25 for a game?
Unlikely, it hasn't happened yet. Currently, the only way a game can become AP25-active is when one of its identifiers is added to the DAE table. The updated table must then be included in a System Update.

Extracting AP25 data from original discs

Can I extract my own AP25 data from a original disc?
Yes. You'll need XBC 2.9.0.345 or later and 0800 v3 firmware with a suitable dae.bin file for your dash version. It is important to ensure that you use the correct dae.bin version for XBC to use the correct challenges for your dash version. It is also important to check that the integrity of the dae.bin file is intact. The following MD5 hashes are verified to be correct:

dae.bin v5 (12416-12611)
80e5d79684268a8f3deea01cabb386a8

dae.bin v9 (12625)
fa460772c7c16897adeff049dcf1efde

dae.bin v12 (13140-13604)
d5df9cb33762b27e4b017ee52a13efa1

Which games have AP25 replay sectors available?
Check the AP25 games list or run the game through abgx360 and it will show you if a patch is available and, if you choose to, it will patch the game if there is.

Why doesn't every version of a game have a replay sector available? (e.g. non-English titles)
Previously, the few individuals who could extract the AP25 response data from the original retail discs did not own every language version of every game. Now that XBC (with AP25 support) and 0800 v3 fw are public it is likely that more replay sectors will be made available.

I've found a patch for my game that appears to work but is not highlighted in your list. Why not?
There are fake AP25 patches around which are unsafe to use. Read the warning below...

Warning - Fake AP25 patches
Beware of fake AP25 patches that have been released. These are constructed from target data in the dae.bin file and do not have responses from an original retail disc. In contrast, XBC with AP25 support gets actual responses from the disc.

The fake patches will work in the sense that they can allow an AP25-active game to boot. They were originally missing response data in the replay sector. Even with this data included this does not make them any safer. They are still using hardcoded angle data much like a Kreon SSv1 security sector. Some newer patches are using randomized angle deviations. Using any of these patches is not recommended for Xbox Live use.

LT+ will not protect you from getting flagged in the event of a patch being corrupt or incorrect in even just one byte. You should obtain your patches from a trusted source (abgx360/Xecuter) as advised in this FAQ. abgx360 only stores data obtained from original discs and specifically uses hash checks to maintain file integrity.

There are several non-English titles that don't have currently have genuine patches available. You can now obtain your own from a retail disc with the new XBC, 0800 v3 firmware, and the appropriate dae.bin file.

Thanks/credits
Anthares2k/Luigi Marconi/WizZy - 12416 AP25 bypass
Seacrest - abgx360
c4eva
k3rn3l - Team Xecuter
Redline99

Nice guide, and interesting info on the dae.bin, I didn't know about that before.

Are you saying there are 50 challenges currently stored for, say, Assassins Creed, 13 are being used at the moment so there's a possibility for another 37 to come in to force at any time? If so, fine, but what about adding to those 50 challenges, is that possible for MS to do (I think you answered this but I'm not so sure..)

Thanks.

It seems possible.

With so much data on a disc it certainly seems possible that they could implement challenges other than those that are currently in the table.

It's been said before, but this thread just confirms that it's possible for AP25 to be the end of backup gaming, if only limited by how often MS update their challenges etc.

Bad times!

very well done.

thank you.

I think this deserves a sticky.

Really excellent work! This is great stuff! Thank you!

Really awesome analysis - good job !

awesome work !!!!!! always #1

Thanks for this excellent post.

I have LT+ 1.1 and dashboard 12611. I am able to play "Call of Duty: Black Ops" and "Halo Reach". But according to your list this game can only playable on 12625. Any comments on that?

Also if I update the dashboard to 12625, do I need to re-flash with LT+ 1.1? Or is it safe to update the dashboard directly from live? Shall I be able to play all latest games? Few people have complained that they were unable to play few games after dashboard update. Any comments?

I am having LiteOn 8 V1 dvd rom.

I'm missing something...

I was playing a backup of Halo Reach with older updates, under 1.5 (after I changed it to wave2...)

Now, with LT+ and 12625 I can't play the very same Halo reach backup (I get a black screen).

Is it because it's wave2?

Thanks!

You have the latest drive f/w - so you're good to go in that respect. However, I think your interpreting the data incorrectly. [Disclaimer] Of course, if one of the forum "experts" reads my comments and knows I'm wrong, please feel free to correct me.

It's not that the game - in this case COD: Black Ops - is only playable on dash 12625, it's that beginning with dash 12625, M$ activated AP2.5 checks for that game. In other words, you could still play your currently burned version of the game on any dash prior to 12625 since you already have the latest f/w. That's because the console doesn't know (yet) that it's supposed to check the AP 2.5 data before booting the game (since you haven't yet updated to 12625).

The bottom line is, you're going to have to re-burn the game - including any others you may have that are on the AP2.5 list (link in original post) - if you update to the dash listed for that game since AP2.5 checks will be active beginning with that dash version. Does that make sense?

Additionally, you're going to have to update the dash to play other new games so there's really no sense in avoiding the update. You do not have to re-flash your drive after updating the dash since you already have the latest LT+ v1.1 f/w and, from what I've read, it's ok to update online or via USB.

Unless the comments are coming from a known authority on the subject, I tend to ignore random posts that complain about problems after updating. 99% of the time, user-error is the cause of their problems.

Hope this helps...
It's because dash version 12625 activated AP2.5 checks for Halo Reach - as indicated in the list of active AP2.5 games shown the original post. The dash (or more accurately, the DAE table [see FAQ]) is telling the console to check for AP2.5 data before allowing you to boot the game and, because the currently burned game doesn't include the AP2.5 data - the console knows you're trying to boot a backup and it won't allow you to continue. I hope you're using a previously banned console or you've likely now been flagged for banning in the near future (if not already). There are ways to check for sure - search the forum.

When AP2.5 checks are activated for specific games by M$ (through dash updates), you MUST re-burn those games AFTER running the ISO's through ABGX360 again (so the AP2.5 data can be added to the ISO). That's the only way to add the data to the ISO at this point (assuming it's available - always check the updated list).

As mentioned in the FAQ, M$ is currently using 13 out of 50 AP2.5 checks available to them. What does that mean? It means, in the future, it's very possible that M$ could add new or additional AP2.5 checks to games - including OLD games - if the data was always included in the retail copies. Remember, the AP2.5 data could have been there all along. M$ just never activated it until now (as proven with COD: Black Ops, Halo Reach, etc.) They could feasibly activate 15 checks on Madden NFL 07 (if the data was always on the retail disc), for example, and activate 17 checks on a completely different game - again - assuming the AP2.5 data already existed on the retail game.

That's why it's so important to stay up to date on everything - game data AND drive firmware! This could end up being a real pain in the ass for everyone if it turns out that we have to update old ISO's and re-burn games time and time again.

killer thread, well done.

Now Russian guys have released new AP2.5 patches that have data fields filled with right data. So those patches are not fake nor nonstealth anymore. You need to rewrite some parts of this FAQ.

Thanks for the great FAQ

Ok so if I understand this correctly, there is an unlimited number of AP2.5 challenges? Is the AP2.5 data not stored on the original disc? The original discs cannot be updated in any way so why can't we copy all AP2.5 data from the disc? Or is it that it is only possible to extract the AP2.5 data needed once the challenges from the updates are known? The way I see it; once the challenges are known from the updates, you can extract this data from the disc, because you know what data to extract. Is this correct?

Not exactly unlimited, but large enough to be considered "effectively unlimited".


There is no actual data being stored for AP25 on an original disc. The disc is merely responding differently to challenges compared to a DVD+R DL because the data is stored differently at a physical level.


Correct, only when the challenges are known can they be sent to the drive to return the correct response.

@DevilDave - We can't extract what we don't know. The challenge is offered by the system and the disc gives a response. We don't know all the possible challenges to get the responses - least from what I gather. When MS puts them in play we will know.

microsoft has essentially made backups impossible for any system made after 2007.
The systems before 2007 should've been JTAGed, but if not they have drives and OSIG that suits non-ap2.5. Im fully content MS won't really implement this in their current 360 system (AAA titles only) but will do it 3-fold in their next console provided it is successful on a small scale with the 360. (ill probably eat crow for this statement)

we know that MS can reflash the drives remotely, those with AP2.5, which could result in ANY change in the firmware at any time,new C/R's, different drive keys, new decryption algo... anythings possible at any time. Those who don't use live only have to worry when dash updates are released or on-game updates.

MS can change the C/R on the fly, and we don't have the original disc to regenerate the proper key we are out in left field. Sadly this is 2-way comms now, unlike satellite we can't write a blocker to bypass any checks as a valid response is needed or else.

A man in the middle attack would work similar to how the WII was done when we couldn't patch RAM anymore I do believe, but that means a modchip and continuous updates to it. This wouldn't be possible for slims as MS software blocked their backup reading ability, like Nintendo had done. These drives WOULD require a CFW on them at all times to bypass this check and boot the disc. Im very doubtful someone could write a software emulator and interface a HDD holding ISO images to the 360 - can be hopeful tho.

MS essentially enabled a key-rolling scheme AND a remote flasher that could and will reflash the 360 drive as it pleases, as well as making any discs wrote invalid. I guess if theres 50 possible AP2.5 combos per game we would have 50 different discs available. Not good. Kudos MS, only took ya 5 years to figure this out.

I guess Ap25 Challenges are actually some kind of mathematical calculation with dvd angles, protection and or dvd sectors. Since challenges results are not stored in the original media, but calculated. If a better way of modeling the protection information from the original disc is created, you could virtually defeat the protection, instead of just using a challenge/result table.

So I had to post my idea..

1.) Store AP25 data either on the HD, USB, or System Drive if exists.
2.) Updated firmware calls: getAP25data.exe <game uid>
3.) getAP25data.exe returns the expected AP25 data from the database to the drive to return for the AP25 checks.

This would make the AP25 data update-able.

Not sure on the size limitations in the firmware for coding a call out or anything... I just had to post my idea in case it would be of any assistance.

About these AP2.5 patches released by russian hackers, I would like to know if using that patch with the old LT firmware (and with the 12625 dashboard, used by Dragon Age 2, for example) will allow all games released until now to work, including Halo Reach, Fable 3 and Black Ops.

I'm still using the old LT firmware, don't care about Xbox Live and since updating the firmware is too much hassle for me, I wondering if these patches will solve my problem (until now).

Edit: I'm currently using that old AP25 bypass method, by the way.


Thanks.

LT won't handle AP25 challenge requests so AP25 games will never work with later dashboards until you update your drive FW.

So if i have a samsung drive that doesnt support ap2.5 is there any way they can update it to support 2.5? or am i safe?

don't mean to be "special" but can I just check

can I still play my old back ups without reburning?
I'm running LT+ v1.1
I've verified and reburnt games on the ap25 list (Like black ops)

but my older games that I played back in the iXtreme days, can I still play this without issue?

thanks

Call me paranoid, but after LT+ was released, I put all of my previous backups away and before putting one of them into XBox360 I always check it through the latest available version of abgx360. Since I don't remember what options I used while ripping them in the first place, the latest revision of abgx360 made it safer to play backups on XBL for the following reasons:
1) Video partition needs to match PFI (in other words, the wave needs to match the versions that are compatible with game's PFI)
2) SplitVid must be valid
3) always have SSv2 in your backup (unless only SSv1 is available for the title in abgx360's verified database)

Here is a good article on why SSv2 is important.

Also, wanted to mention that with the coming dashboard update to support XGD3 disks and the new fw version LT+ v2.0, we might need to repeat the cycle of re-verifying backups through abgx360 once again.

I am not an expert on this topic so please correct me when I write something untrue.

i have old iextreme 1.61 on a xbox arcade that came with a LiteON DG-16D2S 93450c .

I was able to play assassins creed brotherhood by doing the ap25 bypass method, so my dash is 12416.

The faq says newer games like dragon age 2 require a newer dashboard. The question is, do i need LT+ or can i just update to the latest dash?

I would have updated to LT+, the problem is that i live in Venezuela and it isn't easy to find someone that will flash my drive for me, and i am not skilled enough to open up the xbox myself.

This is not meant as an insult...

If you're "not skilled enough" to open your 360 then you probably shouldn't be using a modded console in the first place. Lots of changes are coming and there's NO WAY you'll be able to keep up with them if you can't do it yourself (since you don't have anyone else available to help).

In all honesty, my 11 year old son knows how to open our console. If he can do it, you should be able to do it as well. It's very easy to do and guides are available to help.

As far as your f/w is concerned, NEVER use your console without the latest f/w. As of right now, you'll need LT+ v1.1 to play newer games (AP2.5). You'll also need to re-flash the ORIGINAL (stock) f/w before doing future dashboard updates (see the new beta dashboard FAQ). Once the new dashboards are installed (beginning with the newest beta dashboards), you can apparently flash back to custom f/w - BUT - some games will need to be re-burned AGAIN (since new AP2.5 checks are included). Again, see the beta dash FAQ for more info.

I made a few conclusions after reading your FAQ but it would be great if you could confirm them in case I am wrong.

1) Any older game could be AP25 activated in the future. Any AP25 game thats already activated may have its challenges updated in the future. The above things can only happen when there are new dashboard updates.

For example, I may be able to play Forza Motorsport 3 today safely on 12625 but it might be activated suddenly in the future by another dashboard. I may be able to safely play NFS:HP safely on 12625 today but if challenges are updated on a newer dashboard in the future I need to have it patched with the updated challenges and reburn it if I update to that dashboard. Activations and challenge updates happen with dashboard updates only, right? Or not? Can the DAE table be updated by MS without a dashboard update?

2) If I have my drive flashed with LT+ v1.1 and try to boot a game which is AP25 activated and have an old non AP25 copy LT will protect me and prevent it from booting and flagging me. But what happens with games burnt with AP25 challenges if that challenges are updated? If I update my dashboard and the new one has updated challenges the game will try to boot, AP25 is going to fail and I am going to be flagged right? If I got that right, assuming you have LT+, your older AP25 activated games that you have burnt in the past are safer than games with outdated AP25 patches. So you must be extra careful and recheck your AP25 burnt games every time you update your dashboard.

I also have a question for you:
You provided as with the EAD table that, if I got it right, is going to be updated every time there's a new dashboard and new IDs added. Is there any way to check if any challenges are updated from it? For example NFS:HP was activated with 12416. Do its challenges remain the same with 12625? How can I be sure that abgx360 downloaded the most updated version that is safe for 12625 that I currently have? It may be just adding the 12416 version challenges. Is there any way I can check that?

The table is just a file on the NAND so I wouldn't rule out the possibility of MS updating it with updated challenges during other less major XBL updates. I'd rather not speculate :)


That won't be a problem because (new) unknown challenges won't be in the replay sector at all so when LT+ can't find a challenge in the replay sector it will protect you (black screen). Only a replay sector with a challenge set with the wrong responses will cause a secdata flag, which is why it's important to obtain patches from trusted sources.


Good question. NFS:HP has the same challenge set in 12416 and 12625. Now that challenges have changed in 13146 there should be a way to distinguish patches so you'll know which you need to use. But as mentioned, if you apply the wrong patch for your dash version, you'll be protected by LT+ as long as the patch is genuine. My games list spreadsheet will be updated to make things clearer in the coming weeks.

Thank you very much for your answers. As you can see, my main concern is whether valid but outdated patches can cause a flag. As soon as LT+ also protects us from them then I guess there is no reason to worry since the worst thing that may happen is the copy not booting. Then you just have to wait for the challenges to be updated at abgx360.net, repatch the game and reburn it.

That cleared a lot of grey areas. Thanks again!

so if a game is run through abgx right now will it pass the new system updates ap25 challenges?

No. The new patches haven't been released.

how will the news of new patches be released? team jungle twitter?

I just ran black ops thru abgx and it patched the ap2.5 sector, so I checked the rest and it patched them as well. they were already patched, so I am assuming these are the new 13146 responses. But I think that just assuming this is reckless. I did some googling but I dont see any info one way or the other. Can anyone comment?

i burned the iso after running through abgx 24 hours ago, it said it patched ap2.5 but the xbox will not run the game (black screen = lt+ safety feature)

What's stopping MS from challenging ALL games with AP2.5? Why only 6 games?

Also, is it possible to make a non-live safe F/W that will respond with challenges good enough to make a backup boot? Removing the need to make new backups every time the challenges change.
I thought X-S policy was to keep backups off live anyways.
I'm sure there are plenty of people that have absolutely no interest in playing backups on live, yet missed the chance for Jtag. These people still want the latest dashboards for playing the latest games, but don't care about being live safe.

I guess they can but they don't do it for some reason. It is also possible that there are no challenges written on all older games.



They can't do that. Challenges are data written on original disks. When the console asks for them it already has them on its nand. Its asking them and verifies that they are also on the disk and that they are the same. So its not something like a yes or no answer from the drive. The drive should return back to the console the data the console asks from the disk and there is no way for this to be bypassed from a firmware.


My question is:
Why don't they include all known challenges with the new patch? Why making an updated disk only compatible with the latest dashboard and not all of them until the last one? If I re-burn my game it is not going to be compatible with older dashboards.. Thats not very convenient if I want to give my newer backups to someone that hasn't updated yet. It is also not convenient if I want to download a game today and patch it with abgx360 to play it with my non-updated console. It's kind of forcing you to update or stay with the games you already burned earlier.

Excellent forum post so thanks for that.

Just to clarify for my own peace of mind, if a person has an xbox with a Samsung drive or an Hitachi ver 59 or less they could play backups (as long as they as SSV2 compliant and running LT+1.1) on XBL and not run the risk of an SSV3/AP2.5 flag?

If so, can these be flagged in another way?

Hi, i thought that the patches for the AP2.5 games were now available from ABGX360? I'm sure i've seen comments to that effect on the forums?

Can anyone clarify this??

One question I have is that if I have a pre-patched image of a ap 2.5 game (black ops) can I upgrade this image for the new ap2.5 checks or do I have to use a clean non patched image of the game in order to have the new ap2.5 data ??

Is there a way to still use the old challenge set instead of the new one? like an old database dump?

exactly what I'm looking for...
I have 2 systems here @ home, one still using original fw, never modded and thus live safe (of course) and my old xbox system which was banned with 9199 (thus preventing me from jtag-ing it).

what I wanted to do is boot anything just like what used to be done with old Xtreme 5.* releases that didn't need to be stealth at all.

From what I understand now, the problem lies not on the DVD fw , but on the dashboard + disc data combo, as the challenge / response tables are changing with every dashboard update.

As we have just a few challenge / response matches at the moment I guess it would be impossible to do, but if we have more data, couldn't we work onto something like a dummy response that would always return something valid? not meant to be live safe, just to boot every piece of game we burnt withouth having to worry with patches and stuff.


in the OP`s faq there is something about some "fake" patches which allows you to boot your games but are not live safe.

would those patches work on future dashboard updates?

The "fake" responses were extracted from the dae.bin. This is the file in the nand of the Xbox that has the verification data. Its the place where the Xbox looks to verify that the data from the disk matches. They somehow managed to take the data from this file instead of the original disks. So the data is valid but somehow dirty. I guess the process leaves some traces on the data that makes them not as clean as required. So the data is as valid as needed to boot the game but contain traces that make them recognizable and trigger a flag.

I guess this answers your questions. The data is not universal. It is just the correct data extracted the wrong way. So the answer is "NO". You can't create some kind of universal responce. The check is a part of the Xbox OS, not some kind of internal drive check like the protection we had before AP2.5 was enabled. So unless there is a new valid way to exploit and hack the OS (like the older jtag method did) don't expect a universal drive-firmware based solution.

Great post. Thanks for the info.

Seems to me the answer is YES, you can create a response that will make the game boot, it just will end up in a flag for ban, hence my question, can a NON live safe CFW be made that will boot AP2.5 games for those that don't use Live? x-s has always held the policy that backups shouldn't be on live in the first place.

sorry if im missing something really obvious here guys but ive run black ops through abgx360 and burned it but im still getting the black screen

for me is same as yours but with COD:MW2 I run ABGX360 and all are green but still black screen. dashboard is 12625
other games are working fine AC:B, COD:BOPS

Help please

im running the latest dashboard with lt 1.9 if that makes a difference, and nhl 11 works fine.

Um, yeah you both are missing something obvious. When a new dashboard has new AP2.5 challenges for all AP2.5 games including Black Ops, you need to wait until they are on ABGX. Seeing green on ABGX means nothing. If games need to new AP2.5 challenges you must WAIT until they are added to ABGX.

However, this update will need a new CFW... and apparently games won't need to be re-burned.
http://forums.xbox-scene.com/index.php?showtopic=733899

I noticed that it's saying 6 titles are ap25 but as far as i can tell this is wrong, Crysis 2 is an ap25 too aint it ? So that makes 7

Or would i be wrong about that